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Post by chumped on Dec 9, 2009 21:19:25 GMT -5
 Who dig's it? Loving how Aaron is writing Fisk, and these first two issues are laying the groundwork for what could be an explosive arc for the Punisher. Aaron under the MAX imprint makes me happy. |
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Post by moocow on Dec 9, 2009 23:05:47 GMT -5
I've never read the MAX series before, but it was lucky that when the first issue came out that the guy at my comic store put it in with the rest of my comics becuase I loved it.
The only thing that I don't like about the comic when I look back on it and it has nothing to do with the comic itself but more with me is when Kingpin pops the guys eyes out of his head which makes me want to throw up every time I see it.
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 2:06:50 GMT -5
Aaron should have just continued the MAX series instead of starting his own, with his own continuity. i was very excited about this series when i first heard about it, but once i found out it was completely out of continuity and the terrible changes to the characters that were mad i had to pass on the series.
at least the original MAX series isnt completely dead. the Get Castle one-shot next month looks like its going to be great. its basically a sequel to the Kitchen Irish arc, which was excellent. hopefully they keep giving us one-shots and some minis.
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Post by chumped on Dec 10, 2009 2:34:07 GMT -5
Nicky Cavella, Finn Cooley, and Barracuda are all mentioned. I wouldn't call that completely out of continuity, it's directly referencing villains who have failed to take Castle out in the Ennis run, and using their failures as an example for why they need a Kingpin.
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 11:00:24 GMT -5
Nicky Cavella, Finn Cooley, and Barracuda are all mentioned. I wouldn't call that completely out of continuity, it's directly referencing villains who have failed to take Castle out in the Ennis run, and using their failures as an example for why they need a Kingpin. Jason Aaron himself stated that this series is out of continuity and has nothing to do with the original MAX series. just because characters are mentioned doesnt put a story in continuity. in Marvel, almost everyone of their Earths have a version of every character. Ultimate Spider-Man is not the same continuity as Spider-Man is but most characters have the same name as their regular universe counterpart. here's the perfect example, Punisher: Noir. Barracuda is in that. does that make it in continuity with any other series? it does not. |
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Post by chumped on Dec 10, 2009 12:53:17 GMT -5
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 15:21:21 GMT -5
^ i suggest getting info from a reliable source. IGN is the worst place for comic news. read the launch story from CBR and the interview from Wizard and read current issues of Daredevil and you'll clearly see that this series isnt in continuity. just read the first 2 issues and you should easily be able to tell that its not in continuity. and here's the biggest proof of all that PunisherMax is out of continuity (aside from the fact that Bullseye has a patch and hair and Kingpin hasnt even killed Rigolletto yet and has never encountered Punisher before), here's Marvel's official website's profile on Punisher. at the bottom on the right please read significant issues. notice the last listing is for the first arc of the original Max series, In The Beginning. that firmly places that series in regular continuity as we all already knew aside from you. here's the link: marvel.com/universe/Punisherdid you just forget about the old Punisher series from the 80s and 90s? or did you just never read them? and i take it you dont read Daredevil either, or else you'd know about Bullseye & Kingpin and how they look and their histories and the multitude of times they've each gone up against Punisher. like i said before, you need to get your info from a better source than IGN if you just got into these characters. the link i put up can help you out, just search for a character you dont know about and you can learn. the Marvel Database Wiki can also help you get some history, and continuity nuts like myself and many others have put alot of time into getting the realities section of the site near perfect, identifying all alternate Earths and designating them properly. here's the link to the Database to help you gain further knowledge on these and really any characters that interest you: marvel.wikia.com/Main_Page |
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Post by chumped on Dec 10, 2009 15:43:58 GMT -5
Bullseye and Kingpin haven't been in an Ennis Punisher MAX book before. I know what they look like, I read Daredevil. Bullseye, as stated in, I don't know, just about every interview with Aaron on his MAX run, won't be in his normal attire, he's been changed to fit into the gritty MAX world. Just as Kingpin has a dirtier origin. We're not talking about the 80's and 90's, we are talking about the fact that the 75 issues of Punisher MAX ARE continuity for Aaron's PUNISHERMAX, that is all, proven by the fact that Aaron stated such in the quote I provided, and the fact that he referenced events in his first issue that have taken place in Ennis' run, and plans to reference more.
I don't see what IGN being 'unreliable' has to do with anything, the quote came from Aaron himself.
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Post by moocow on Dec 10, 2009 16:00:06 GMT -5
Not to get in the whole argument here but I find it hilarious that you say IGN isn't a reliable site but then you link to a wikipedia page, I don't know about everyone else but if I'm looking for good information I'm not going to go straight to a Wikipedia site of any kind.
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 17:03:03 GMT -5
Bullseye and Kingpin haven't been in an Ennis Punisher MAX book before. I know what they look like, I read Daredevil. Bullseye, as stated in, I don't know, just about every interview with Aaron on his MAX run, won't be in his normal attire, he's been changed to fit into the gritty MAX world. Just as Kingpin has a dirtier origin. We're not talking about the 80's and 90's, we are talking about the fact that the 75 issues of Punisher MAX ARE continuity for Aaron's PUNISHERMAX, that is all, proven by the fact that Aaron stated such in the quote I provided, and the fact that he referenced events in his first issue that have taken place in Ennis' run, and plans to reference more. I don't see what IGN being 'unreliable' has to do with anything, the quote came from Aaron himself. I really don't see how this conversation extended past the quote I provided. please tell me how its possible for this series to be in continuity. the first 75 issues of the MAX title (Ennis wrote 60 of them, not all them) take place on Earth-616, regular continuity. so thats the same Punisher that has met both Kingpin and Bullseye in the past. so no, PunisherMax is an out of continuity series, just like Punisher: Noir. the 80s and 90s series all take place in the same reality as the Max series. it all continues. its all a part of Punisher's history. PunisherMax deviates significantly from Punisher's known history and Kingpin and Bullseye's known history. hence its setting on an alternate Earth. as for "Aaron's words", now if Aaron wants those issues to be the past of his series' reality than so be it, thats what he wants. you didnt link any interview though, all you did was type out what you say he said. but PunisherMax does not take place on Earth-616. thats why it is out of continuity. when you take a major character like Wilson Fisk, tweak his image, significantly lower his age, and completely change his origin, you've taken your work out of continuity. i'm sorry that this bothers you or makes the story less enjoyable for you, but its not a 616 series. Aaron can want it to take place on 616 all he wants, he can say it takes place on 616 all he wants, it doesnt make it fact. 70 years of Marvel history show why that cant be. the best part is that Marvel's official website clearly shows that this series is out of continuity and you and Jeff Moo Cow are both trying to say that this series is in continuity. and to Jeff, please find something inaccurate on Marvel Database. please. i posted a link to Marvel's official site, which is maintained by Marvel staff, thats where the real proof is. i just posted the database link for him because its very obvious he doesnt know the history of Punisher, Kingpin, Bullseye, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Elektra, and all other characters who have interacted with the ones mentioned. i gave him the link so he can learn about the characters and see that his statement that PunisherMax takes place in 616 continuity couldnt be further from the truth and maybe if he got some knowledge he could avoid being on the embarassing side of debates like the one he is currently involved in. and really it isnt a debate. if you honestly think this is Kingpin's origin and first meeting with the Punisher and that this series takes place in continuity and you truly didnt just get into these characters last month than something is wrong. you're not reading or following correctly or maybe you forgot alot of things or something, but its just not possible for this series to be in regular continuity, where Punisher was killed by Daken and brought back as (hopefully for as little an amount of time as possible) Frankencastle. its just not possible. i dont know how much clearer to make it for you guys. |
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Post by chumped on Dec 10, 2009 18:22:46 GMT -5
you didnt link any interview though, all you did was type out what you say he said. You might try checking my post again, and look a little harder this time. I clearly did. As far as Punisher MAX taking place in the 616, Castle's family dying is done differently in MAX than it is in the 616. In the 616, Costa ordered the murders of Frank's family because they witnessed a gang hit. In MAX, they were simply caught in the crossfire. There are no super heroes in MAX. Nick Fury is different from his 616 counterpart. Castle is older. There is no Bullseye or other costumed villains. If you want to see it as in continuity, be my guest, but I don't see it that way at all. I guess it just comes down to different writers wanting it in continuity for convenience, because I've never seen any proof that it definitely is or isn't in continuity, but all of the differences have me believe that it's self contained. Ennis took a major character like the Punisher, tweaked his image (no more costume), raised his age, and changed part of his origin. Thus setting MAX out of continuity? It doesn't really matter either way. The fact of the matter is, Jason Aaron, the writer of the book, states that in the universe his book takes place in, the previous 75 issues of Punisher MAX, nothing more, nothing less, do exist. They did happen. They are continuity for his book. He referenced such. This Frank Castle is the same Frank Castle that Ennis, and those that followed him on the MAX line wrote. I really don't know what else to say. |
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Post by chumped on Dec 10, 2009 18:28:20 GMT -5
Also, you can take your Holier than Thou attitude elsewhere, I don't need you lecturing me on anything with your pompous replies, a theme that runs rampant in most of your posts on this board. Especially when I've provided you with proof that I'm basing my side of the conversation on. Proof coming from the writer of the book himself, no less.
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Post by moocow on Dec 10, 2009 18:35:10 GMT -5
I don't understand how I was brought into this argument with that last post. I've made 2 posts in here, the first saying this is the first MAX comic I've ever read and the second doubting the credibility of that wikipedia site. So I don't really understand what you are trying to clear up for me when I haven't said anything about the continuity.
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 18:35:42 GMT -5
you didnt link any interview though, all you did was type out what you say he said. You might try checking my post again, and look a little harder this time. I clearly did. As far as Punisher MAX taking place in the 616, Castle's family dying is done differently in MAX than it is in the 616. In the 616, Costa ordered the murders of Frank's family because they witnessed a gang hit. In MAX, they were simply caught in the crossfire. There are no super heroes in MAX. Nick Fury is different from his 616 counterpart. Micro was alive for the first arc, when he was dead in 616. Castle is older. There is no Bullseye or other costumed villains. If you want to see it as in continuity, be my guest, but I don't see it that way at all. I guess it just comes down to different writers wanting it in continuity for convenience, because I've never seen any proof that it definitely is or isn't in continuity, but all of the differences have me believe that it's self contained. Ennis took a major character like the Punisher, tweaked his image (no more costume), raised his age, and changed part of his origin. Thus setting MAX out of continuity? The fact of the matter is, Jason Aaron, the writer of the book, states that in the universe his book takes place in, the previous 75 issues of Punisher MAX, nothing more, nothing less, do exist. They did happen. They are continuity for his book. He referenced such. This Frank Castle is the same Frank Castle that Ennis, and those that followed him on the MAX line wrote. I really don't know what else to say. the changes to Castle's origin were retcons, they were done because his return to life after he killed himself was never specified how it happened so they retconed it for his return. Micro was never shown being killed during Countdown, it was just to be assumed. Castle's age is never given & he lost the costume during Ennis' first Punisher story, Welcome Back, Frank (which isnt Max), not during the first arc of the Max series. Marvel the company that owns the characters and story say that this series isnt in continuity, but the previous was. thats all the proof thats necessary. its obvious that you dont know the character's history, so its pointless having this debate. not knowing about Welcome Back, Frank, the retcons, the fact thats he's met both Fisk and Bullseye and all the other ridiculous things you've posted make this pointless. PunisherMax does not take place on Earth-616. you can try to say it is until you're blue in the face, but it just isnt possible. you and Jason Aaron can want it to be as much you'd like, but it doesnt make it true or factual. |
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 20:22:11 GMT -5
I don't understand how I was brought into this argument with that last post. I've made 2 posts in here, the first saying this is the first MAX comic I've ever read and the second doubting the credibility of that wikipedia site. So I don't really understand what you are trying to clear up for me when I haven't said anything about the continuity. you got brought in for doubting the credibility of the most accurate source for info on all of the alternate realities of the Marvel Universe. like i said, find something incorrect on the Database before posting thats not a credible source. when Marvel's own staff use the site for reference, i'd say its pretty reliable. |
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Post by moocow on Dec 10, 2009 22:14:46 GMT -5
It still doesn't make any sense when you say "the best part is that Marvel's official website clearly shows that this series is out of continuity and you and Jeff Moo Cow are both trying to say that this series is in continuity." when there has not been one post in this topic where I've said anything like "this series is totally is in continuity." If you didn't know there is a pretty big difference of me talking about a comic book and me talking about the credibility of a website that is run on Wikia.
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 10, 2009 22:25:50 GMT -5
It still doesn't make any sense when you say "the best part is that Marvel's official website clearly shows that this series is out of continuity and you and Jeff Moo Cow are both trying to say that this series is in continuity." when there has not been one post in this topic where I've said anything like "this series is totally is in continuity." If you didn't know there is a pretty big difference of me talking about a comic book and me talking about the credibility of a website that is run on Wikia. you're right. i apologize for including your name there. i was posting my response to you in that same post and i got mixed up and didnt catch my error. |
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Post by chumped on Dec 10, 2009 22:57:27 GMT -5
If the changes made in MAX were to retcon the 616 origin, how come a 616 book that came out after this 'retcon' was established, Punisher War Journal #18, had Jigsaw explaining that Castle's family was murdered per orders from Costa? That's the original death, not the MAX version.
Legitimate question, not trying to advance the argument. I'm interested in the continuity there.
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jlavaia
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Post by jlavaia on Dec 11, 2009 2:46:10 GMT -5
If the changes made in MAX were to retcon the 616 origin, how come a 616 book that came out after this 'retcon' was established, Punisher War Journal #18, had Jigsaw explaining that Castle's family was murdered per orders from Costa? That's the original death, not the MAX version. Legitimate question, not trying to advance the argument. I'm interested in the continuity there. that story is told through Jigsaw's point of view. also, Punisher has more continuity problems than any character, including Hawkman. everything from him shooting himself onward has problems because no one ever bothered to explain how he came back to life from being an avenging angel. Ennis said he doesnt bother with continuity and just writes a story. sales were great, so Marvel didnt care and let him do his thing. then came last year and Gregg Hurwitz, who is a huge Punisher fan, wanted to write a Jigsaw story and wasnt sure if that was allowed with MAX. he got the okay and wrote an excellent story arc called, girls in white dresses. and in it is further proof that its in continuity, as Jigsaw appears as he always does, and all their history is brought up. and Jigsaw is really crazy. and Fraction had no past knowledge of Punisher before that series. hence the bad portrayal of Lynn Michaels and no mention of her father or Payback or what really happened at the end of Countdown. its a shame too. she's a great character. so that continuity problem comes from Jigsaw's insanity. also, his true origin is that Olivier, posing as Frank Costa, was able to learn of Frank when he was a soldier in Vietnam and planned everything out then. he had given the order for the family to be killed and Punisher spared. its why he set up the hit on Hunt to happen in the park, as he knew Castle & family would be there. so Frank had it all set up before his brother even went to the park. it was Frank Costa who gave the order and made the Punisher. and that origin isnt going anywhere while Quesada is in charge as he is one of the guys who came up with it. so the MAX series just added to that and had it be that they were killed in "crossfire", with it being known that they were to be killed anyway. its also why Ennis added the supernatural stuff to Born (the voice in his head), and Tyger. he was going to become the Punisher no matter what. Olivier already set it in motion and Tyger showed us that even if that didnt happen he still would have. hope that helps clear anything up. let me know if you have any other questions and i'll see if i can answer them. |
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Post by k5 on Dec 12, 2009 19:41:01 GMT -5
not to throw gas on the fire, but in terms of the whole continuation i think it's obvious that aaron took a great deal of inspiration from ennis' work, and that undoubtedly impacted his perspective on what the punisher is. he looks younger now in this run, he's less run down and the war is still on, so really it can't be in continuation with the previous MAX series...but to be honest i had no clue that punisher MAX took place on 616, but really, i don't give a  . i can understand if the fanboys get their panties in a knot over continuation, but if aaron says that he wrote it in terms of continuation, that holds a lot more weight than a bunch of elitists who miss the point. so, 616 or not, in terms of the concept continuation and author's intent, it does continue from the max point if that is aaron's intention. as jlalavia pointed out, that doesn't officiate it, but i think to put regulations and rules like that on comic timelines and universes is in the end contradicting and pointless. it's comics, their storylines conflict endlessly. annnnyways, in terms of the current run, i loved the first issue and just picked the second up. i don't think i'll enjoy it as much as ennis, as he really epitomized the character in my opinion, but it's looking great and as joe said their use of fisk so far makes me optimistic. happy you checked it out. |
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