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Post by Kliquid on Dec 13, 2010 18:46:51 GMT -5
"Because they can afford it" is not a fair answer to that question, Slappy.
Stealing from one person (and that's what it is) to provide to another is not right. SHOULD rich people provide more? Yes. But it should be through charity and other non-government regulated ways, and it shouldn't be required. It's completely unconstitutional to take from one person to give to another.
You have a right to life, liberty, and the fruits of your labor.
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Post by slappy on Dec 13, 2010 18:55:19 GMT -5
It's not taking from Person A and giving it to Person B, it's taking it from Person A and giving it to the nation.
How about corporations? They certainly don't pay as much taxes as us. The Supreme Court basically said corporations are people, so they should be paying the same rate as others in the country.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 13, 2010 19:01:48 GMT -5
It's not taking from Person A and giving it to Person B, it's taking it from Person A and giving it to the nation. Which is even more preposterous.
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Post by King Bálor (CM)™ on Dec 13, 2010 19:05:42 GMT -5
"Because they can afford it" is not a fair answer to that question, Slappy. Stealing from one person (and that's what it is) to provide to another is not right. SHOULD rich people provide more? Yes. But it should be through charity and other non-government regulated ways, and it shouldn't be required. It's completely unconstitutional to take from one person to give to another. You have a right to life, liberty, and the fruits of your labor. Very well put and 100% agree.
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Post by k5 on Dec 13, 2010 19:26:29 GMT -5
i still think the idea that there is starving people in the world, but some have the 'right' to be rich and prosperous, is a complete joke. obviously everyone should have the rights to the fruit of their labor. but when your labor gives you waaaay too much fruit, the balance gets ed. it is these kinds of views that have allowed you to watch your fellow people starve and suffer around you, and it is these kinds of views that make you submit to the idea of others deserving literally a better quality of life than even yourself.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 13, 2010 19:51:49 GMT -5
i still think the idea that there is starving people in the world, but some have the 'right' to be rich and prosperous, is a complete joke. obviously everyone should have the rights to the fruit of their labor. but when your labor gives you waaaay too much fruit, the balance gets ed. it is these kinds of views that have allowed you to watch your fellow people starve and suffer around you, and it is these kinds of views that make you submit to the idea of others deserving literally a better quality of life than even yourself. "Too much" is a matter of opinion. There are plenty of people who think I make "too much" money, and I certainly wouldn't agree. And people do deserve a better quality of life than other people. It's called work. If someone sits around and smokes weed all day and just wants a paper route as a job, that's their call. I defend their right to do that. But if someone else wants to spend 12 years of their life and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to college and earn an income that will be able to support themselves and their family at the level they desire; they DESERVE the fruits of that labor. Taking from one person to give to another is the exact opposite if personal liberty and is actually the definition of socialism.
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Post by k5 on Dec 13, 2010 20:02:39 GMT -5
i honestly find that point of view disturbing. i obviously believe in hard work receiving more than someone that slacks out, but that isn't what i'm talking about. the majority of the rich fell in to their position of power, they got lucky. they didn't work any more than say a farmer...actually, they probably worked waaaay less.
the idea that you think it's okay for people to starve, for any reason, is chilling. it's this school of thought that has allowed capitalism to become so corrupt imo.
there is no morality in that, and that's what your politics successfully do - remove the humanity from it.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 13, 2010 20:33:05 GMT -5
"Working hard" simply by itself is not enough. You have to work smart as well. This is what "rich" people have done. And no one is saying that helpless people should starve. But it should be up to me how I spend my money - not the government. If the government stopped ing stealing from me, I would donate more money to charity than I already do... But the fact is that I spend nearly half of my income paying for TAXES, much of which should be illegal to begin with. "Letting people starve" is a preposterous notion that accepts the point of view that people are helpless to their situation. This is not true. Are there people who are helpless? Yes. One of my very best friends is perhaps the most physically handicapped person that I, or anyone here, has ever met. Aside from people who are quadriplegic, he is probably more handicapped than anyone in America. But you don't even want to see how the government treats him. He needed a new wheel chair because the previous one he had was deteriorating the tissue in his chest (because of how he had to sit in it). It took the government almost two years to figure out who was going to pay for the chair. And that's just a basic need of him to live. He now has permanent physical bruising and bone and tissue damage from the points of contact on the chair... Even then, the government decided he didn't "need" certain things on his chair, which they somehow determined without a doctor's opinion. He had to pay for his own handicapped-accessible van when his parents couldn't afford it, which he thankfully was able to put a down payment on only because he happened to win a poker tournament. Then you get into how much money he gets from social security. Keep in mind, this is a person who cannot physically work. He gets one check per month from Social Security for less than $700. How is a person supposed to pay for his transportation (he needs transportation so that he can go to the doctor's office, get medication, and just generally live), pay for his living expenses, and pay for his housing (if he weren't to be living at home) on $700/mo? This is what the government provides. I have helped him financially numerous times and I will continue to do so in the future, but I would like to help more -- I would be able to if the government wasn't stealing from me. People want to argue about how people "will starve" if we don't continue unemployment and Social Security benefits, but they don't think about the fact that people are starving already because these programs are ing horsepoop to begin with. And it's not because they're underfunded. It's because the money is appropriated terribly by the Federal Government which has proven time and time again that it only knows how to bankrupt itself (just look at the US postal service -- how, exactly, does that lose money other than complete idiocy ruining it?) You have to look at history and realize that simply spending money on things is not going to change it. There needs to be a shift of common sense in America. We need to take care of people who PHYSICALLY CANNOT take care of themselves, and we need to stop babying people that just want to sit around and be pieces of poop, sucking the life out of society. those people, yes, let them starve if they want to spend their money on drugs or new rims for their car instead of health care. them.
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Post by k5 on Dec 13, 2010 20:47:23 GMT -5
yea, the uneducated or abused, that's awesome. that's the exact mentality i'm talking about. 'they're too dumb, we were smart enough to cover our asses, why should we have to look out for them?' i'm not intending to talk about you personally; i know it must be coming through that way. i'm just saying how i generally feel towards the idea of basically allowing others, guilty of the blame or not, to 'fall through the cracks' of life. and you're taking starving too literally, i mean going without basic needs when i say that. families not starving, but eating improperly their entire lives because we've set it out that only the rich can afford actually healthy food. i have countless friends who are uneducated, blue collar workers who don't even see what's wrong with feeding their 4 year old daughter mcdonalds 5 out of the 7 days of the week because they've been raised that way. they actually think they must be awesome parents for it. raised stupid, kept stupid. perhaps you should read the story of the prodigal son. (and no, i'm not religious) i think that people, as a whole, have evolved to the point where we don't need to focus on getting to mars or finding out how to live forever...we need to focus on the real problems, which is human suffering. and the majority of people are much less capable of producing a quality life in our day and age than you claim.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 13, 2010 20:57:14 GMT -5
Being "uneducated" is not a disability. Anyone can become educated. We have free libraries, free schools, and a ridiculously huge free source on the internet.
Being mentally disabled is, as the name states, a disability. And like I said, I can understand why those people need to be taken care of by others -- I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But if we stopped taking care of people that CAN take care of themselves, we will be much better able to take people who CAN'T take care of themselves.
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Post by k5 on Dec 13, 2010 21:05:32 GMT -5
i disagree with you. those in the lower class are conditioned from a young age, and public schools decide very early which of these students will be the candidates for success - and then they say the rest and never allow them to develop to their full potential - resulting in the burnouts we have today. i hate macleans, but nevertheless check out bill gates recent involvement with them, he deals directly with the topic at hand: oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2010/09/21/bill-gates-on-what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-public-schools-2/ i'm not saying to give anyone a free ride, and i'm not saying that some shouldn't have more than others as a result of their hard work. i'm saying that the extremes on either side (how rich you can get, how poor) are terrible, and i'm saying that those who cannot take care of themselves need to be properly taught how to. the playing ground should be level, so that people can fully meet their potential...and right now, imo, it's far from.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 13, 2010 21:14:34 GMT -5
I think our entire education system is beyond ed, and I would end federally-funded education, leaving it to the individual state - or even city - to determine education spending. But if we're going with the existing system, I definitely agree that there needs to be a better education on how to take care of one's self. There needs to be classes on the following things that are MANDATORY... - Personal finance
- Credit
- Choosing a Career
- Parenthood
- Living on your own
If these classes were taught, instead of the obnoxious crap we currently teach, people would be much better prepared for their futures and we would have less irresponsibility.
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Post by k5 on Dec 13, 2010 21:17:14 GMT -5
absolutely, i agree.
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Post by slappy on Dec 15, 2010 0:35:31 GMT -5
Being smart and working hard doesn't make you rich.
Being rich doesn't mean you are smart or you've worked hard.
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Post by Word™ on Dec 15, 2010 2:20:27 GMT -5
Where's Robin Hood when you need him.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 15, 2010 9:36:36 GMT -5
Being smart and working hard doesn't make you rich. Being rich doesn't mean you are smart or you've worked hard. Not necessarily, no. But being stupid and not working hard is usually a lock for poverty.
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Post by Kliquid on Dec 15, 2010 11:38:56 GMT -5
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