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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 9:22:47 GMT -5
He's singling out a race, not just the people who are oppressing him. He used violence and terrorism as methods to achieve his goals. Now MLK, he's a man worthy of admiration, he was the antithesis of Mandella. What he achieved through non-violent actions was incredible. I can't believe that people are actually defending and admiring a known terrorist. I don't give a crap of the intent behind his actions, they were what they were. Hitler and Manson both had good intentions in the eyes of some people, and they were scum of the earth too. I'm not saying Mandela is the greatest man that ever lived but he's certainly not as terrible as some of you are making him out to be. Are you saying you'd rather take the abuse and let your oppressors do what they want just so you can say you did not harm them? You can do non-violent actions but sometimes that isn't enough. Whether or not he wanted his oppressor's dead (which is still unethical to say the least) he's responsible for the deaths of innocents, including children. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 10, 2013 10:46:33 GMT -5
Here's the deal with Mandela. Like any other people, it's complicated because people are rarely either monsters or saints. Even those who are monsters often have redeeming qualities and those who are saints often have shadier sides. Why? Because that's how people are. People rarely are black and white.
Mandela is somewhere in the middle, but leans toward the saint end of the spectrum. It's easy to just shoe horn him into one end or the other, but realistically, few people fit on one extreme or the other. Mandela started out advocating non-violence. He was working against a racist regime that flat out oppressed blacks. He came to the conclusion that non-violence was not going to work in his situation.
At this point he started more violent methods and bombings. Even then, he planned the bombings at night so that casualties would be minimized if not eliminated entirely. Obviously this wasn't 100% successful. Within 6 years of this decision he was arrested and ended up spending the next 30 years in prison. After he was released he returned to advocating non-violence and working within the system. The world had changed in those 30 years and he spent the rest of his life advocating non-violence and peaceful resolutions to conflict.
Yeah, it's easy to shoe horn the guy into the "terrorist" box, but honestly he doesn't really fit there given his entire life's work and what he was fighting against. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 10:59:18 GMT -5
Here's the deal with Mandela. Like any other people, it's complicated because people are rarely either monsters or saints. Even those who are monsters often have redeeming qualities and those who are saints often have shadier sides. Why? Because that's how people are. People rarely are black and white. Mandela is somewhere in the middle, but leans toward the saint end of the spectrum. It's easy to just shoe horn him into one end or the other, but realistically, few people fit on one extreme or the other. Mandela started out advocating non-violence. He was working against a racist regime that flat out oppressed blacks. He came to the conclusion that non-violence was not going to work in his situation. At this point he started more violent methods and bombings. Even then, he planned the bombings at night so that casualties would be minimized if not eliminated entirely. Obviously this wasn't 100% successful. Within 6 years of this decision he was arrested and ended up spending the next 30 years in prison. After he was released he returned to advocating non-violence and working within the system. The world had changed in those 30 years and he spent the rest of his life advocating non-violence and peaceful resolutions to conflict. Yeah, it's easy to shoe horn the guy into the "terrorist" box, but honestly he doesn't really fit there given his entire life's work and what he was fighting against. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. This is ridiculous. He was a terrorist, he killed innocent people. That doesn't make you a saint, it makes you an evil piece of crap. You have to be a piece of crap to even consider mass bombings and terrorist activities. Your argument is essentially "yeah he killed people but he could have killed more". That doesn't make him a good person, that makes him utter scum. Jimmy Saville was one of the most prolific paedophiles ever, but he did a lot for charity... So should we consider him a saint too? Your logic seems to indicate that we should. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 10, 2013 11:05:24 GMT -5
Here's the deal with Mandela. Like any other people, it's complicated because people are rarely either monsters or saints. Even those who are monsters often have redeeming qualities and those who are saints often have shadier sides. Why? Because that's how people are. People rarely are black and white. Mandela is somewhere in the middle, but leans toward the saint end of the spectrum. It's easy to just shoe horn him into one end or the other, but realistically, few people fit on one extreme or the other. Mandela started out advocating non-violence. He was working against a racist regime that flat out oppressed blacks. He came to the conclusion that non-violence was not going to work in his situation. At this point he started more violent methods and bombings. Even then, he planned the bombings at night so that casualties would be minimized if not eliminated entirely. Obviously this wasn't 100% successful. Within 6 years of this decision he was arrested and ended up spending the next 30 years in prison. After he was released he returned to advocating non-violence and working within the system. The world had changed in those 30 years and he spent the rest of his life advocating non-violence and peaceful resolutions to conflict. Yeah, it's easy to shoe horn the guy into the "terrorist" box, but honestly he doesn't really fit there given his entire life's work and what he was fighting against. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. This is ridiculous. He was a terrorist, he killed innocent people. That doesn't make you a saint, it makes you an evil piece of crap. You have to be a piece of crap to even consider mass bombings and terrorist activities. Your argument is essentially "yeah he killed people but he could have killed more". That doesn't make him a good person, that makes him utter scum. Jimmy Saville was one of the most prolific paedophiles ever, but he did a lot for charity... So should we consider him a saint too? Your logic seems to indicate that we should. George Washington was a terrorist. At least from the British perspective. Just for perspective, the organization Mandela founded killed like 60 people. That's it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 11:14:12 GMT -5
This is ridiculous. He was a terrorist, he killed innocent people. That doesn't make you a saint, it makes you an evil piece of crap. You have to be a piece of crap to even consider mass bombings and terrorist activities. Your argument is essentially "yeah he killed people but he could have killed more". That doesn't make him a good person, that makes him utter scum. Jimmy Saville was one of the most prolific paedophiles ever, but he did a lot for charity... So should we consider him a saint too? Your logic seems to indicate that we should. George Washington was a terrorist. At least from the British perspective. Just for perspective, the organization Mandela founded killed like 60 people. That's it. Only 60? Oh well, all's forgiven then. And yes, George Washington massacred people, he was scum too. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 17:18:56 GMT -5
[a href="  "]link[/a] |
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Post by slappy on Dec 10, 2013 17:59:41 GMT -5
Whether or not he wanted his oppressor's dead (which is still unethical to say the least) he's responsible for the deaths of innocents, including children. How is it unethical to want to strike down those who are oppressing you? |
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Post by slappy on Dec 10, 2013 18:08:39 GMT -5
"since Obama" Mandela has been around much longer than Obama. And who is Sulak? A look at his twitter (which I'm guessing is him because he calls himself "Patriotically Correct") shows he's a Sandy Hook conspiracy theorist, a man who believes UN and Russian troops are being allowed to train on US soil to implement martial law here and compares Obama to Hitler because of universal health care. He believes the Federal Reserve, created in 1913, killed Lincoln. Insists on calling Obama "Barry Hussein". |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 10, 2013 21:10:07 GMT -5
Slappy, it's clear you're one of the sheeple. The Federal Reserve went back in time and killed Lincoln. Everyone knows this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 3:33:27 GMT -5
Whether or not he wanted his oppressor's dead (which is still unethical to say the least) he's responsible for the deaths of innocents, including children. How is it unethical to want to strike down those who are oppressing you? That's not the point. Killing anyone is wrong, and he killed innocent people. |
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Post by Tim of thee on Dec 11, 2013 3:46:54 GMT -5
How is it unethical to want to strike down those who are oppressing you? That's not the point. Killing anyone is wrong, and he killed innocent people. Do you truly, in your heart of hearts, believe that though? does this sentiment extend to the likes of Osama Bin Laden or Adolph Hitler? |
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Post by slappy on Dec 11, 2013 4:27:30 GMT -5
How is it unethical to want to strike down those who are oppressing you? That's not the point. Killing anyone is wrong, and he killed innocent people. You are locked in someone's basement. They've been raping and torturing you for weeks. You somehow get a hold of an object and when that person comes back down you attack them with it, killing them. That's wrong? |
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Post by slappy on Dec 11, 2013 4:31:38 GMT -5
Slappy, it's clear you're one of the sheeple. The Federal Reserve went back in time and killed Lincoln. Everyone knows this.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2013 6:22:00 GMT -5
That's not the point. Killing anyone is wrong, and he killed innocent people. Do you truly, in your heart of hearts, believe that though? does this sentiment extend to the likes of Osama Bin Laden or Adolph Hitler? There may be certain exceptions like convicted murderers and pedophiles. Clearly, the many innocent people that Mandella are responsible for the deaths of were neither. If anything for being a terrorist he's on the list of people that deserve to die. That's not the point. Killing anyone is wrong, and he killed innocent people. You are locked in someone's basement. They've been raping and torturing you for weeks. You somehow get a hold of an object and when that person comes back down you attack them with it, killing them. That's wrong? To be honest if I was raped and tortured the first thing I'd be doing was offing myself. But either way we aren't talking about killing scum of the earth here, we're talking about innocent children. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Dec 11, 2013 10:38:28 GMT -5
Do you truly, in your heart of hearts, believe that though? does this sentiment extend to the likes of Osama Bin Laden or Adolph Hitler? There may be certain exceptions like convicted murderers and pedophiles. Clearly, the many innocent people that Mandella are responsible for the deaths of were neither. If anything for being a terrorist he's on the list of people that deserve to die. You are locked in someone's basement. They've been raping and torturing you for weeks. You somehow get a hold of an object and when that person comes back down you attack them with it, killing them. That's wrong? To be honest if I was raped and tortured the first thing I'd be doing was offing myself. But either way we aren't talking about killing scum of the earth here, we're talking about innocent children. The few lists of "killings" that I've seen attributed to Mandela all happened when he was in prison. Just pointing out the obvious. |
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Barack Lesnar
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Post by Barack Lesnar on Dec 14, 2013 15:04:22 GMT -5
R.I.P. He is very important to my heritage and has done a lot of good things. I celebrate the new man inside Mr Mandela. May God open the gate and send you to light. You will be missed.
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