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In 2002...
Jul 29, 2014 16:41:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Jonathan Karate on Jul 29, 2014 16:41:32 GMT -5
I remember the generic Internet opinion being furious that Undertaker didn't lose to him at Unforgiven, and happy that Brock won the cell match. I don't remember much else about what people thought of Brock at that time, but everyone hated The Rock for going to Hollywood, right? So I think Lesnar was seen as a breath of fresh air rather than the stale Austin vs Undertaker main events and Triple H's bloated post-injury phase. The fact Brock Lesnar was a breath of fresh air is one of the reasons that added to his appeal. I wasn't really angry about the non-finish Lesnar and 'Taker had at Unforgiven 2002. 'Taker's purpose was to elevate Lesnar and make him a legit main-eventer. When Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle headlined WrestleMania XIX, it was one of the freshest PPV main events we've seen in a while. I can't remember a good match The Rock & Steve Austin had in 2002. The Undertaker had his best match against Lesnar at No Mercy. When Triple H came back, his work rate was never the same. Lesnar coming in caused the WWE to change their guard. While many can tout John Cena's success, it was Brock Lesnar who made the biggest impact out of the OVW Four. Theres only three memorable matches that happened between WM18 and 2003 IMO that didn't involve Brock. HHH vs. HBK from Summerslam EC from Survivor Series Angle vs. Taker vs. Rock from vengeance
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Post by slappy on Jul 29, 2014 16:44:49 GMT -5
Didn't care for him.
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 29, 2014 20:28:56 GMT -5
I was 11/12 at the time and loved him from the moment he debuted. He was a breath of fresh air in the main event at a time he WWE desperately needed it. He had a great look and it was the first time we saw a legit 275 pounder move and pull off moves like a cruewserweight. The guy was putting on great matches from the get go and by the time WM19 came around it was hard to believe he was still a rookie.
I remember being shocked and upset when he left. I was a big fan and couldn't believe that he left out of nowhere after the WWE positioned the company around him. Knowing now why he left its great that he got out for his own health but I remember watching in 2004 and 2005 and thinking there was a big missing piece in Lesnar. It wasn't until around WM22 that I felt the WWE fully moved on from him.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Jul 29, 2014 23:53:14 GMT -5
The fact Brock Lesnar was a breath of fresh air is one of the reasons that added to his appeal. I wasn't really angry about the non-finish Lesnar and 'Taker had at Unforgiven 2002. 'Taker's purpose was to elevate Lesnar and make him a legit main-eventer. When Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle headlined WrestleMania XIX, it was one of the freshest PPV main events we've seen in a while. I can't remember a good match The Rock & Steve Austin had in 2002. The Undertaker had his best match against Lesnar at No Mercy. When Triple H came back, his work rate was never the same. Lesnar coming in caused the WWE to change their guard. While many can tout John Cena's success, it was Brock Lesnar who made the biggest impact out of the OVW Four. Theres only three memorable matches that happened between WM18 and 2003 IMO that didn't involve Brock. HHH vs. HBK from Summerslam EC from Survivor Series Angle vs. Taker vs. Rock from vengeance You are forgetting a few more from that list. One that comes to mind is Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit vs. Edge and Rey Mysterio from No Mercy 2002. I was 11/12 at the time and loved him from the moment he debuted. He was a breath of fresh air in the main event at a time he WWE desperately needed it. He had a great look and it was the first time we saw a legit 275 pounder move and pull off moves like a cruewserweight. The guy was putting on great matches from the get go and by the time WM19 came around it was hard to believe he was still a rookie. I remember being shocked and upset when he left. I was a big fan and couldn't believe that he left out of nowhere after the WWE positioned the company around him. Knowing now why he left its great that he got out for his own health but I remember watching in 2004 and 2005 and thinking there was a big missing piece in Lesnar. It wasn't until around WM22 that I felt the WWE fully moved on from him Once Lesnar left, the WWE had a void to fill. Nobody at the time understood the ramifications of Lesnar's departure. I recall Jim Ross stating on his podcast that he looked for guys who he felt had a ton of potential. Ross saw something in guys like Lesnar and Cena. I remember reading The Ross Report on WWF.Com and he praised the hell out of Cena and Lesnar. I can vividly remember being so hyped seeing Lesnar defeat The Rock at SummerSlam 2002. Looking back, the WWE should revisit how they built Lesnar into the star he became. The WWE today has remained stagnant because they don't know how to produce megastars. Creating a new formula is what the WWE needs. They can't resort to re-creating Lesnar's rise with somebody new. Lesnar left because he wanted to try out new ventures such as professional football and MMA. His health issues arose from having to cut weight and the overall training MMA fighters have to endure. Ken Shamrock is right. UFC mis-treated Brock Lesnar. I would say the WWE recovered from Lesnar's departure when John Cena and Batista became world champions at WrestleMania 21.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on Jul 30, 2014 0:36:47 GMT -5
Theres only three memorable matches that happened between WM18 and 2003 IMO that didn't involve Brock. HHH vs. HBK from Summerslam EC from Survivor Series Angle vs. Taker vs. Rock from vengeance You are forgetting a few more from that list. One that comes to mind is Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit vs. Edge and Rey Mysterio from No Mercy 2002. I was 11/12 at the time and loved him from the moment he debuted. He was a breath of fresh air in the main event at a time he WWE desperately needed it. He had a great look and it was the first time we saw a legit 275 pounder move and pull off moves like a cruewserweight. The guy was putting on great matches from the get go and by the time WM19 came around it was hard to believe he was still a rookie. I remember being shocked and upset when he left. I was a big fan and couldn't believe that he left out of nowhere after the WWE positioned the company around him. Knowing now why he left its great that he got out for his own health but I remember watching in 2004 and 2005 and thinking there was a big missing piece in Lesnar. It wasn't until around WM22 that I felt the WWE fully moved on from him Once Lesnar left, the WWE had a void to fill. Nobody at the time understood the ramifications of Lesnar's departure. I recall Jim Ross stating on his podcast that he looked for guys who he felt had a ton of potential. Ross saw something in guys like Lesnar and Cena. I remember reading The Ross Report on WWF.Com and he praised the hell out of Cena and Lesnar. I can vividly remember being so hyped seeing Lesnar defeat The Rock at SummerSlam 2002. Looking back, the WWE should revisit how they built Lesnar into the star he became. The WWE today has remained stagnant because they don't know how to produce megastars. Creating a new formula is what the WWE needs. They can't resort to re-creating Lesnar's rise with somebody new. Lesnar left because he wanted to try out new ventures such as professional football and MMA. His health issues arose from having to cut weight and the overall training MMA fighters have to endure. Ken Shamrock is right. UFC mis-treated Brock Lesnar. I would say the WWE recovered from Lesnar's departure when John Cena and Batista became world champions at WrestleMania 21. I was trying to think of more but I couldn't off the top of my head. Now that I think of it what the hell was Angle doing through 2002? I remember the short time he teamed with Benoit and the short Mysterio feud but did he do anything of substance other then those after the Vengeance three way?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 0:51:37 GMT -5
I was 29 then and thought he was great. His size etc. He totally dominated my figure fed after that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 5:39:09 GMT -5
The fact Brock Lesnar was a breath of fresh air is one of the reasons that added to his appeal. I wasn't really angry about the non-finish Lesnar and 'Taker had at Unforgiven 2002. 'Taker's purpose was to elevate Lesnar and make him a legit main-eventer. When Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle headlined WrestleMania XIX, it was one of the freshest PPV main events we've seen in a while. I can't remember a good match The Rock & Steve Austin had in 2002. The Undertaker had his best match against Lesnar at No Mercy. When Triple H came back, his work rate was never the same. Lesnar coming in caused the WWE to change their guard. While many can tout John Cena's success, it was Brock Lesnar who made the biggest impact out of the OVW Four. Theres only three memorable matches that happened between WM18 and 2003 IMO that didn't involve Brock. HHH vs. HBK from Summerslam EC from Survivor Series Angle vs. Taker vs. Rock from vengeance Fair statement actually!! Survivor Series 2002 was solid from top to bottom but I know what you mean. Angle vs benoit totally delivered RR03 and shines out to me as the only one other than your list that stands out from WM 18-19 that doesn't involve ol Brocky.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 5:42:22 GMT -5
From what I recall of WF at the time, some people liked him, others thought he sucked. Reasons why varied. I ing loved Brock Lesnar back then, still do. He's one of my all time favorites.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Jul 30, 2014 6:03:32 GMT -5
...what did everyone on WF think of Brock Lesnar? I know people like him now, but were they complaining that he 'didn't pay his dues' or was getting pushed way too quickly? Just curious. Losing Lesnar is one of the biggest reasons WWE is in its current tailspin. He was the size of Hogan/Warrior, but far more athletic as is evidenced by his kip up at SS '02. Unlike Cena/Batista/Orton, he brought legitimate sporting credentials to the table that gave him a leg up as a main eventer. Had he committed himself to WWE, and improved his mic skills, I have no doubt that we would be talking about Brock as one of the greatest performers ever to grace a wrestling ring.
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Post by OmegaGaijin on Jul 30, 2014 9:54:36 GMT -5
...what did everyone on WF think of Brock Lesnar? I know people like him now, but were they complaining that he 'didn't pay his dues' or was getting pushed way too quickly? Just curious. Losing Lesnar is one of the biggest reasons WWE is in its current tailspin. He was the size of Hogan/Warrior, but far more athletic as is evidenced by his kip up at SS '02. Unlike Cena/Batista/Orton, he brought legitimate sporting credentials to the table that gave him a leg up as a main eventer. Had he committed himself to WWE, and improved his mic skills, I have no doubt that we would be talking about Brock as one of the greatest performers ever to grace a wrestling ring. Its funny you've said that, I from a personal point of view really fell out of love with WWE after he (and Goldberg) left. I was in New York for the whole week leading up to Wrestlemania 20 & was kind of oblivious that Brock was leaving till i heard people talking when queuing in Madison Square Garden. I was at the Meadowlands the night after too, it was bizarre, again, from my own personal view, i really fell out of love with WWE afterwards.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Jul 30, 2014 10:19:03 GMT -5
Losing Lesnar is one of the biggest reasons WWE is in its current tailspin. He was the size of Hogan/Warrior, but far more athletic as is evidenced by his kip up at SS '02. Unlike Cena/Batista/Orton, he brought legitimate sporting credentials to the table that gave him a leg up as a main eventer. Had he committed himself to WWE, and improved his mic skills, I have no doubt that we would be talking about Brock as one of the greatest performers ever to grace a wrestling ring. Its funny you've said that, I from a personal point of view really fell out of love with WWE after he (and Goldberg) left. I was in New York for the whole week leading up to Wrestlemania 20 & was kind of oblivious that Brock was leaving till i heard people talking when queuing in Madison Square Garden. I was at the Meadowlands the night after too, it was bizarre, again, from my own personal view, i really fell out of love with WWE afterwards. The WWE took a ton of back steps after WrestleMania XX. I remember both RAW & SmackDown were on a hot streak leading into WrestleMania XX. After WrestleMania XX happened, things seemingly cooled off tremendously. Had Brock Lesnar stayed, I doubt Bradshaw would have became JBL, Randy Orton becoming the World Heavyweight Champion, and the ascension of John Cena.
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In 2002...
Jul 30, 2014 15:03:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Jonathan Karate on Jul 30, 2014 15:03:30 GMT -5
...what did everyone on WF think of Brock Lesnar? I know people like him now, but were they complaining that he 'didn't pay his dues' or was getting pushed way too quickly? Just curious. Losing Lesnar is one of the biggest reasons WWE is in its current tailspin. He was the size of Hogan/Warrior, but far more athletic as is evidenced by his kip up at SS '02. Unlike Cena/Batista/Orton, he brought legitimate sporting credentials to the table that gave him a leg up as a main eventer. Had he committed himself to WWE, and improved his mic skills, I have no doubt that we would be talking about Brock as one of the greatest performers ever to grace a wrestling ring. And yet he's still in that discussion everytime it comes up. Brock Lesnar is something special. And also I think we would have seen Orton take the strap still. Unless Brock was drafted right away they wanted the belt off of Benoit and Orton was as hot as you can imagine at the time.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Jul 30, 2014 15:26:52 GMT -5
Losing Lesnar is one of the biggest reasons WWE is in its current tailspin. He was the size of Hogan/Warrior, but far more athletic as is evidenced by his kip up at SS '02. Unlike Cena/Batista/Orton, he brought legitimate sporting credentials to the table that gave him a leg up as a main eventer. Had he committed himself to WWE, and improved his mic skills, I have no doubt that we would be talking about Brock as one of the greatest performers ever to grace a wrestling ring. And yet he's still in that discussion everytime it comes up. Brock Lesnar is something special. And also I think we would have seen Orton take the strap still. Unless Brock was drafted right away they wanted the belt off of Benoit and Orton was as hot as you can imagine at the time. As hot Randy Orton was after his program with Mick Foley, he still wasn't ready to become a World Champion. After Orton became World Champion, he was fed to Triple H. Therefore, making him look like a transitional champion. Orton program with The Undertaker was damage control to put some of the steam back on Orton after his steam ran out. Looking back at the aftermath of Lesnar's departure, the WWE was in such a mess.
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Dante, The Voc
Main Eventer
If I'm not online, I'm on the toilet
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Post by Dante, The Voc on Jul 30, 2014 19:23:54 GMT -5
I wasn't a member here in 2002......but I remember being very "so so" about Brock.....until the HIAC match with Undertaker. I got more and more into him from there. vs RVD at KOTR and vs Rock at SSlam did zero for me and still don't. I was happy with his face push at first but his heavily telegraphed win at RR03 and weak run in to WM19 hurt him for me. I was delighted to see him turn heel again and feud with face Angle. I was also SUPER excited for his match with Goldberg but Vince in his infinite pettiness threw out the match Heyman & Hayes had booked and we got what we got.Forgive me for asking but what was the original plan on this match? I never heard a story about it. Personally, being a five-year-old and a wrestling fan for roughly a year, I remember him destroying all the guys I liked and legitimitely fearing which one of my heroes was gonna be his victim. He was scary, but in an intimidating way. And to this day Lesnar/'Taker HIAC is my favorite match of all-time.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Jul 30, 2014 19:32:50 GMT -5
I wasn't a member here in 2002......but I remember being very "so so" about Brock.....until the HIAC match with Undertaker. I got more and more into him from there. vs RVD at KOTR and vs Rock at SSlam did zero for me and still don't. I was happy with his face push at first but his heavily telegraphed win at RR03 and weak run in to WM19 hurt him for me. I was delighted to see him turn heel again and feud with face Angle. I was also SUPER excited for his match with Goldberg but Vince in his infinite pettiness threw out the match Heyman & Hayes had booked and we got what we got.Forgive me for asking but what was the original plan on this match? I never heard a story about it. Personally, being a five-year-old and a wrestling fan for roughly a year, I remember him destroying all the guys I liked and legitimitely fearing which one of my heroes was gonna be his victim. He was scary, but in an intimidating way. And to this day Lesnar/'Taker HIAC is my favorite match of all-time. I heard Brock Lesnar was supposed to go over Goldberg. When the WWE caught whiff Lesnar was leaving to try out for the NFL, the finished was changed to gave Goldberg going over Lesnar. Steve Austin mentioned on his podcast that the stunner to both Goldberg and Lesnar was planned no matter who won.
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 30, 2014 22:02:09 GMT -5
Theres only three memorable matches that happened between WM18 and 2003 IMO that didn't involve Brock. HHH vs. HBK from Summerslam EC from Survivor Series Angle vs. Taker vs. Rock from vengeance You are forgetting a few more from that list. One that comes to mind is Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit vs. Edge and Rey Mysterio from No Mercy 2002. I was 11/12 at the time and loved him from the moment he debuted. He was a breath of fresh air in the main event at a time he WWE desperately needed it. He had a great look and it was the first time we saw a legit 275 pounder move and pull off moves like a cruewserweight. The guy was putting on great matches from the get go and by the time WM19 came around it was hard to believe he was still a rookie. I remember being shocked and upset when he left. I was a big fan and couldn't believe that he left out of nowhere after the WWE positioned the company around him. Knowing now why he left its great that he got out for his own health but I remember watching in 2004 and 2005 and thinking there was a big missing piece in Lesnar. It wasn't until around WM22 that I felt the WWE fully moved on from him Once Lesnar left, the WWE had a void to fill. Nobody at the time understood the ramifications of Lesnar's departure. I recall Jim Ross stating on his podcast that he looked for guys who he felt had a ton of potential. Ross saw something in guys like Lesnar and Cena. I remember reading The Ross Report on WWF.Com and he praised the hell out of Cena and Lesnar. I can vividly remember being so hyped seeing Lesnar defeat The Rock at SummerSlam 2002. Looking back, the WWE should revisit how they built Lesnar into the star he became. The WWE today has remained stagnant because they don't know how to produce megastars. Creating a new formula is what the WWE needs. They can't resort to re-creating Lesnar's rise with somebody new. Lesnar left because he wanted to try out new ventures such as professional football and MMA. His health issues arose from having to cut weight and the overall training MMA fighters have to endure. Ken Shamrock is right. UFC mis-treated Brock Lesnar. I would say the WWE recovered from Lesnar's departure when John Cena and Batista became world champions at WrestleMania 21. I was referring to Lesnar saying he became an alcoholic during the last 6 months of his WWE run. He has said in multiple interviews that the broken rib he suffered in November 2002 never properly healed during the rest of his WWE run and the travel was so hectic for him that he was drunk every night. He got out for those health reasons. You are right though that he didn't start suffering from diverticulitis until he started cutting weight for the UFC. Even after Cena and Batista won the titles at WM21 I still felt Lesnar was a big missing piece for the WWE. Cena defeating JBL was fine but lacked the big win moment that going over Lesnar would have produced. Even after WM21 I didn't feel like Cena or Batista were anywhere near Lesnar's skill or popularity. It wasn't until Cena defeated HHH at WM22 that I felt he fully took over the role Lesnar filled. That's just me though.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Jul 30, 2014 22:12:33 GMT -5
After reading your post cordless2016, I didn't realize Brock Lesnar suffered from alcoholism during the end of his initial WWE run. Some of the stuff you mentioned is news to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 5:10:06 GMT -5
I wasn't a member here in 2002......but I remember being very "so so" about Brock.....until the HIAC match with Undertaker. I got more and more into him from there. vs RVD at KOTR and vs Rock at SSlam did zero for me and still don't. I was happy with his face push at first but his heavily telegraphed win at RR03 and weak run in to WM19 hurt him for me. I was delighted to see him turn heel again and feud with face Angle. I was also SUPER excited for his match with Goldberg but Vince in his infinite pettiness threw out the match Heyman & Hayes had booked and we got what we got.Forgive me for asking but what was the original plan on this match? I never heard a story about it. . As far as I have heard(shoots, Podcasts etc) It was to be a huge power brawl in the vein of Goldberg vs Steiner from Fall Brawl 2000. Lesnar was to go over & that would be the end of Goldberg in the WWE.....but when Vince got the scent of Lesnar leaving we got what we got.....which was nothing!!
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 31, 2014 17:41:25 GMT -5
After reading your post cordless2016, I didn't realize Brock Lesnar suffered from alcoholism during the end of his initial WWE run. Some of the stuff you mentioned is news to me. Lesnar has said in multiple interviews over the years that he hated the schedule and that combined with his nagging injuries led to him drinking every night. The WWE schedule is brutal so I don't blame Lesnar for getting out if he couldn't handle it. Its just a shame the WWE couldn't work out a part time schedule with him in 2004 like he has now. Apparently he was close to signing with the WWE around Summerslam 2005 but the WWE didn't want to pay him all that money to work part time. Funny how times change.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Jul 31, 2014 18:33:06 GMT -5
After reading your post cordless2016, I didn't realize Brock Lesnar suffered from alcoholism during the end of his initial WWE run. Some of the stuff you mentioned is news to me. Lesnar has said in multiple interviews over the years that he hated the schedule and that combined with his nagging injuries led to him drinking every night. The WWE schedule is brutal so I don't blame Lesnar for getting out if he couldn't handle it. Its just a shame the WWE couldn't work out a part time schedule with him in 2004 like he has now. Apparently he was close to signing with the WWE around Summerslam 2005 but the WWE didn't want to pay him all that money to work part time. Funny how times change. Wrestling part-time is the way to go for these older guys. It can prolong your career. You hit the nail on the head about the travel schedule the WWE had for their performers. When a guy has nagging injuries (Lesnar and CM Punk come to mind), it really affects the psyche of a given individual. You can thank Triple H for allowing the old-timers to work a part-time schedule. When these guys come back, everybody has to go through Triple H first. These days, Vince McMahon has no say in the contracts of talents. Imagine if Lesnar came back in 2005. I think we would have seen some interesting feuds. The landscape would be been different today. It is amazing to see how Lesnar affected the industry as a whole. We can all tip our hats to Jim Ross for scouting him and signing him back in 2000.
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