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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 10:55:43 GMT -5
I read a very interesting piece about JFK and the effect of an untimely death. We tend to look at someone's POTENTIAL and project that onto their legacy rather than merely measuring them for what was actually accomplished. Some have even it said it here: "had he lived he'd be a first ballot hall of famer." Truth is, we don't know that at all, nor can we ever know that. He had the potential IF he continued to work hard, IF he got the right push and the right time, etc. The fact is, he was DEMOTED to the Blue Blazer just before his death. (I know the reason why.) That doesn't sound like a career on the right track. I do agree he was a great in-ring performer, but Hulk Hogan wasn't a great performer. Yet, would anyone be taken seriously if they said Owen was greater for wrestling than Hogan? I don't think so, because wrestling is more than what happens in matches. See, I think Hulk Hogan was a great performer... one of the best. I don't think that when someone says "Owen was a great performer" that it necessarily just means that Owen was a great athlete, technical wrestler, etc. We're grading on the wrestling curve, here. Owen was a great performer in the same way that Hogan was a great performer, which means he was entertaining as hell. If I were only to grade Owen on his talent for fake fighting, I would have to put guys like Mike Graham and Dory Funk Jr. on the same level, but I don't because those guys weren't half as well rounded or entertaining as Owen Hart. I don't really care what he "accomplished" in terms of title belts and main event pushes or even if he goes in the stupid Hall of Fame. I only care that he always entertained me. I think any reasonable fan should agree that the capacity to entertain is the most important aspect of a wrestler. People pay to be entertained. They sit through commercials on prime time shows because they don't want to miss the wrestler when the show returns from break. Of course, feeling entertained is very subjective. Making it to the Hall of Fame is, in large part, a measure of that popularity. And so are pushes and title runs and merchandise sales. If a guy was over you'd expect MAJOR title runs and main event cards. Those are the only objective measures we have (though they are scripted). And up to the point Owen tragically died, he didn't have very many of those. He had the IC belt, but that was the pinnacle of many careers (Honkey Tonk Man, Mr. Perfect). He won King of the Ring, but so did Mabel and Hacksaw Jim Duggan. I think he WOULD have gotten some main event pushes in matches not involving his popular brother, but we just don't know. Any professional historian would likely measure him based on what he did. That's all I'm trying to say.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Jan 12, 2017 11:06:23 GMT -5
Owen was superbly talented in the ring, and had the ability to get the crowd to love him or hate him depending on if he was a heel or face at the time. Anybody who thinks he's overated probably is too young to have actually seen him while he was alive. It's hard to actually grasp how great somebody is/was just by watching YouTube clips or random stuff on WWE Network. You just sort of had to live through it as it happened.
He should have been WWE Champion, but it just never happened. Scott Hall was never WWE Champion. Neither was Mr. Perfect. Neither was Roddy Piper.....they are all Hall of Famers, and he was as good if not better than all of them.
Owen Hart is a Hall of Famer for sure no matter if his wife allows it or not, and he was one of the best ever in the ring and out of it. Legend in the business, and as classy as they come in real life. His death devastated me and I don't think a day goes by where I don't think about Owen Hart in some capacity.
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 12, 2017 11:40:36 GMT -5
Owen Hart was a great in-ring performer no doubt. As a human being he was apparently a really great guy too. Whether he would have gone to great heights had he lived is debatable. Is he in the upper echelons of the Stone Colds, Rocks, HBKs, etc? Certainly not! But I don't think anyone is really trying to put him there. He was a solid dependable worker and you need guys like that on any card. His death was tragic and with any tragic death of a well-loved individual, people preserve them and cherish those memories and suddenly he's in the top-5 of everyone's greatest wrestler who ever lived list.
What I find somewhat offensive is that folks are quick to jump and say Owen wasn't overrated, but then consider Magnum T.A. as overrated. What?! Call the NWA-reach whatever the hell you want, but Magnum was megastar over and main eventing up until his untimely accident. Owen might have been next in line for the I-C belt as the blue blazer, Magnum was next in line to be a World Champion - big difference.
I really don't want to turn this into a Owen vs. Magnum thing, but it boggles my mind that someone can think Owen was more over than Magnum. They are not even in the same category as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 11:43:15 GMT -5
See, I think Hulk Hogan was a great performer... one of the best. I don't think that when someone says "Owen was a great performer" that it necessarily just means that Owen was a great athlete, technical wrestler, etc. We're grading on the wrestling curve, here. Owen was a great performer in the same way that Hogan was a great performer, which means he was entertaining as hell. If I were only to grade Owen on his talent for fake fighting, I would have to put guys like Mike Graham and Dory Funk Jr. on the same level, but I don't because those guys weren't half as well rounded or entertaining as Owen Hart. I don't really care what he "accomplished" in terms of title belts and main event pushes or even if he goes in the stupid Hall of Fame. I only care that he always entertained me. I think any reasonable fan should agree that the capacity to entertain is the most important aspect of a wrestler. People pay to be entertained. They sit through commercials on prime time shows because they don't want to miss the wrestler when the show returns from break. Of course, feeling entertained is very subjective. Making it to the Hall of Fame is, in large part, a measure of that popularity. And so are pushes and title runs and merchandise sales. If a guy was over you'd expect MAJOR title runs and main event cards. Those are the only objective measures we have (though they are scripted). And up to the point Owen tragically died, he didn't have very many of those. He had the IC belt, but that was the pinnacle of many careers (Honkey Tonk Man, Mr. Perfect). He won King of the Ring, but so did Mabel and Hacksaw Jim Duggan. I think he WOULD have gotten some main event pushes in matches not involving his popular brother, but we just don't know. Any professional historian would likely measure him based on what he did. That's all I'm trying to say. I don't take title belts very seriously. They are used as gimmicks to help get a wrestler over more often than they're used to reward someone for getting over. In many cases, titles were placed on people out of necessity, to help establish a certain wrestler as the company's marquee name. On many occasions, a wrestler is given a title just because the company wants to transition between Wrestler A and Wrestler B without having them fight want another, so they put the title on Wrestler C so they can job him to Wrestler B. They are a booking tool more than an actual measure of that talent's worth, IMO. As for the Hall of Fame, I don't take it too seriously either. I think it's an honor and a nice last hurrah for retired talent, but ultimately it's a TV program. It has a midcard and a main event just like a wrestling show. IMO the HoF doesn't add credibility to the talent, but it's the talent that lends credibility to the HoF. I never cared if Randy Savage went in the HoF, because his work speaks for itself. I didn't need a stupid HoF ceremony to tell me that he was special. However, the HoF had a big gaping hole in it without Macho Man. So yeah, I don't see title belts or HoF has having any relevance to Owen's greatness as a performer. Just my two cents though.
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Post by CampCornette on Jan 12, 2017 12:05:35 GMT -5
Wasn't Owen supposed to be given 'The Game' gimmick/moniker that Triple H eventually took on? Would have been interesting to see how that would have panned out for him, and also Triple H if he had never been 'The Game' I would like an Owen figure but accept it isn't going to happen anytime soon Let's be honest, HHH would have stolen someone else's over gimmick
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Post by bababooey on Jan 12, 2017 12:07:14 GMT -5
The whole Hart family is overrated. If Owen hadn't died he would have continued to be a lower mid carder and be remembered in the same way Neidhart is today. Gotta disagree big time. Owen did have and would have continued to have a much better career than Neidhart. I'll grant that he probably wouldn't have been world champion, but he would have been a believable contender. He had great credibility and ability and would have been great to launch guys into the main event. Would have loved to see him put over guys like Angle or Brock toward the likely tail end of his career.
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Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jan 12, 2017 12:07:45 GMT -5
You're right, if he didn't die no his figure wouldn't be as in demand because we would of gotten plenty of them by now. So yeah you are right, but not in the way you think you are. Of course he's one of the most demanded figures. He had a great career and we haven't gotten a figure of him since the BCA days. At least with Goldberg, Angle, Shane, The Harry's, Steiners etc they got RA figures.
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Post by @.@ Hempsterdance @.@ on Jan 12, 2017 12:11:46 GMT -5
I respect your opinion but I feel Owen was a top guy for most of his wwf career. He just never won the big one so to speak.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 12:20:25 GMT -5
Uh, Owen was a main eventer. He main evented several PPVs.
And if anything he's under rated. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest worker of all time.
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Post by Rated [R] NinJa on Jan 12, 2017 12:24:17 GMT -5
What I find somewhat offensive is that folks are quick to jump and say Owen wasn't overrated, but then consider Magnum T.A. as overrated. What?! Call the NWA-reach whatever the hell you want, but Magnum was megastar over and main eventing up until his untimely accident. Owen might have been next in line for the I-C belt as the blue blazer, Magnum was next in line to be a World Champion - big difference. I don't really understand how you can be offended by something that wasn't mentioned/compared in this thread? Majority posts have compared him to Bret, not Magnum and agreed he does deserve a figure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 12:26:32 GMT -5
Great technical wrestler. Sucks we can't get a figure of him and Chris Benoit
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Post by CampCornette on Jan 12, 2017 12:28:58 GMT -5
Uh, Owen was a main eventer. He main evented several PPVs. And if anything he's under rated. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest worker of all time. You can't be the greatest worker of all time without having carried a territory and also breaking a guys neck.
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TheBadGuyChico
POSSIBLE BAD TRADER
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Post by TheBadGuyChico on Jan 12, 2017 12:49:57 GMT -5
Clearly this is a subjective matter, but the platform you've used (a wrestling message board) is going to highly disagree.
On wrestling sites around the web, work-rate is paramount. The guys who can go with the best of them always get a ton of praise, that's just how it goes in many circles. Plenty of wrestlers with similar accomplishments have passed away, but i can safely say the fascination with Owen pertains to his wrestling ability.
The best word to describe his in ring skill would be dynamic. He had moves from all over the world, something that many wrestlers in the WWF simply didn't have. He's very similar to Chris Jericho in that regard, but more acrobatic. If you watch his matches you'll see what i mean, he could do everything, and with the IWC that is going to create a love affair. It's like Cobain, take away his ability to create catchy melodies and he's forgotten in death. People need a reason to put someone on a pedestal, something that brings them back to their work. An untimely death alone won't leave a legacy.
So in short, no i don't think he's overrated. Many circles of fans say he was better than Bret because of the aforementioned skills, and i don't agree, but he was a special worker. I can't deny his greatness, and i never even touched on his charisma.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 12:54:15 GMT -5
I see where you are coming from but totally disagree. Owen never quite made it as a main event heel or face. I think that falls on WWE for not developing his character enough. In terms of in ring performers for the time period, I put him up there with Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Mr Perfect. THIS No, THIS Or THIS Or YEAH I AGREE Or, you could not waste a QUOTE AND HIT THE LIKE BUTTON OR ADD TO YOUR POST, JESUS!, LIKE HALF OF YOU DO THAT, WHAT'S THE POINT! THE LIKE BUTTON SHOWS THAT YOU ALREADY AGREE WITH THE POST...sorry, It happens so much and it's so irritating, but it's very true. Anyway, Yeah I was born a few months after Owen died, and I saw matches with Bret and those were good, the Slammy thing was funny, but...yeah he should have a figure..but...he's literally asked all the time, I think it's more of the more people ask, the more people start to wain on him, I want him but some don't because some aren't classic collectors, or some may not like Owen or some may just be sick of requests. Also Two Slammys and a World Tag Title with The "I Just Broke his neck" shirt.
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 12, 2017 12:57:06 GMT -5
What I find somewhat offensive is that folks are quick to jump and say Owen wasn't overrated, but then consider Magnum T.A. as overrated. What?! Call the NWA-reach whatever the hell you want, but Magnum was megastar over and main eventing up until his untimely accident. Owen might have been next in line for the I-C belt as the blue blazer, Magnum was next in line to be a World Champion - big difference. I don't really understand how you can be offended by something that wasn't mentioned/compared in this thread? Majority posts have compared him to Bret, not Magnum and agreed he does deserve a figure. you've been here since 2007 (maybe even before). Surely you remember those many threads we had re: Magnum T.A.'s figure and the strong sentiment WFigs had towards him not getting a figure, too plain looking, overhyped, overrated, how his figure will kill the Flashbacks. It's a wonder Mattel even did finally release the figure from prototype hell. I'm by no means saying Owen shouldn't get a figure, he deserves one. But maybe it's a generational thing because most of you guys weren't alive in Magnum's hey day to even care.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 12:57:54 GMT -5
As a performer, he was not overrated. He was not and IMO would have never been a world champion. You think in the days of Austin, Rock, Triple H, Mankind and Undertaker fighting for the title, Owen is gonna get run? Negative. I'd love to see a figure or 3, but that's mainly to fill holes in the collection. Hell I'll even say four figures. Blazer, classic pink and black, black Hart and crossing sign outfit. Done.
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Post by ARUN on Jan 12, 2017 12:58:05 GMT -5
No, THIS Or THIS Or YEAH I AGREE Or, you could not waste a QUOTE AND HIT THE LIKE BUTTON OR ADD TO YOUR POST, JESUS!, LIKE HALF OF YOU DO THAT, WHAT'S THE POINT! THE LIKE BUTTON SHOWS THAT YOU ALREADY AGREE WITH THE POST...sorry, It happens so much and it's so irritating, but it's very true. Anyway, Yeah I was born a few months after Owen died, and I saw matches with Bret and those were good, the Slammy thing was funny, but...yeah he should have a figure..but...he's literally asked all the time, I think it's more of the more people ask, the more people start to wain on him, I want him but some don't because some aren't classic collectors, or some may not like Owen or some may just be sick of requests. Also Two Slammys and a World Tag Title with The "I Just Broke his neck" shirt. Thanks for your feedback. I'm currently at work. I work about 50-60 hours per work. Don't always have time to type a comment like yourself. Simply stating I agree with his opinion. Apologies that this offended you. Enjoy the rest of your day sir.
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Blackbird 13
Main Eventer
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Post by Blackbird 13 on Jan 12, 2017 13:07:35 GMT -5
Owen was always one of my favorite two WWF guys at a time when I was pretty solidly entretched as a WCW fanboy. He's one of the few reasons I had to switch to Raw when Nitro was on a commwrcial, and he's always been in my top ten favorites of all time, both before and after his death. Always thought he was worlds better than Bret in pretty much every way possible.
An Owen figure would be a pre order from me, and I've only pre ordered like three figures in the last eleven years.
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Post by TheHitmanKid on Jan 12, 2017 13:11:01 GMT -5
This whole thread was made to get everyone riled up. We all know the deal with Owen Hart.
Hall of Fame - Figure - Happiness
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 13:12:13 GMT -5
No, THIS Or THIS Or YEAH I AGREE Or, you could not waste a QUOTE AND HIT THE LIKE BUTTON OR ADD TO YOUR POST, JESUS!, LIKE HALF OF YOU DO THAT, WHAT'S THE POINT! THE LIKE BUTTON SHOWS THAT YOU ALREADY AGREE WITH THE POST...sorry, It happens so much and it's so irritating, but it's very true. Anyway, Yeah I was born a few months after Owen died, and I saw matches with Bret and those were good, the Slammy thing was funny, but...yeah he should have a figure..but...he's literally asked all the time, I think it's more of the more people ask, the more people start to wain on him, I want him but some don't because some aren't classic collectors, or some may not like Owen or some may just be sick of requests. Also Two Slammys and a World Tag Title with The "I Just Broke his neck" shirt. Thanks for your feedback. I'm currently at work. I work about 50-60 hours per work. Don't always have time to type a comment like yourself. Simply stating I agree with his opinion. Apologies that this offended you. Enjoy the rest of your day sir. Well I am thankful for your response to my feedback, I feel a wave a humble pleasantness that can only be compared to a summer breeze, warm and all over the world, although cold and disheartening in sarcasm, but the warm empathy is still there, but only slightly.
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