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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 11:56:20 GMT -5
One of the most common things that has happened from the 00's to present is main eventers who were former World champions sinking slightly down the card and winning a mid card title. It has most recently happened with Reigns and Ambrose aswell as Cena who is the guy of the company. Currently for example two former World champions are feuding over the IC title and Jericho recently won the US title which means both mid card belts are held by former World champions which is something you would never have seen years ago.
Now lets look back at guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret Hart, HBK etc once they won the World title they never touched a mid card belt again and look at HBK for example during his second stint from 2002/2010 he never once feuded for the IC or US title and you would also never have seen The Rock feuding for the IC title in 2000.
My question is why does it happen to so many of this generations stars? I believe Orton is the only current former champion who hasn't stepped backwards towards a mid card belt. I remember hearing once that Bret Hart was suppose to win the IC title in 1997 but he refused so maybe that is why it didn't happen to past stars and today stars don't hold the same booking power.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jan 15, 2017 12:05:24 GMT -5
HBK won the European Title after being a two time WWE Champion.
And even back in the 80s, we had Pedro Morales win the IC Title twice, after already being WWE Champion.
Its not really uncommon for it to happen. Just now with all the wrestling on TV, and title changes happening so frequently, we see it a lot more.
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havoc7179
Main Eventer
What is this?
Joined on: Oct 16, 2012 9:11:18 GMT -5
Posts: 4,189
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Post by havoc7179 on Jan 15, 2017 12:18:36 GMT -5
Didn't some American badass win the hardcore title?
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Zincdust
Main Eventer
WF 20+ Year Member WF Day 1 Member
Redefining "Old Toy Weirdo"
Joined on: Dec 18, 2001 15:13:21 GMT -5
Posts: 3,468
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Post by Zincdust on Jan 15, 2017 12:20:14 GMT -5
Bret Hart technically did go "down a tier," as he won the WCW United States Title several times once he'd jumped ship after holding the WWF World Title.
But I understand where you're coming from; for some reason it really rubbed me the wrong way when Ric Flair won the IC Title.
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Post by Jeremiah on Jan 15, 2017 12:31:33 GMT -5
Bret did win the us belt in 2010 as age catches on some wrestlers want to hold gold one last time but don't want to bring down the main title prestige so they snag the 2nd belt to help it gain some credibility and then usually help evaluate the next in line that's how it worked some times.
Owen -Austin feud helped austin Austin Rock feud helped rock get ready Rock- HHH feud helped HHH
Then it got lost for a little while
Til jericho-angle-benoit helped Angle
Then HHH grabbed the ic two form two man power trip then bolted Jeff hardy for a few nights then dropped to someone else.
Then it lost importance during the invasion.
Last time it was used right in the last 10 years
Randy orton's reign Then the ambrose- Owens small feud led to both them becoming champions less than a year later.
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Post by tylerbreezee on Jan 15, 2017 12:58:30 GMT -5
Back then the mid card titles meant something, more recently they've given the titles to former champions to try and give the belts value again
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Post by marino13 on Jan 15, 2017 15:51:40 GMT -5
I'm a firm detractor of this. I prefer mid-card titles to be used for talent that is great in the ring, but not quite ready for the main event. Talented guys like Zayn, Corbin, Neville, or Crews.
Cena winning the US title seems to be the only exception and that is because he used that spot to face new talent and make the younger guys look good.
I love Ambrose but I was not trilled when he defeat Miz for the IC title. Feels like a consolation prize and a step back to where he was two years ago. IMO Ambrose should always been in World title contention.
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Post by NOW that's WRESTLING on Jan 15, 2017 16:32:15 GMT -5
He was already, what, a five time world champ when this happened?
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 17:22:28 GMT -5
Bret Hart technically did go "down a tier," as he won the WCW United States Title several times once he'd jumped ship after holding the WWF World Title. But I understand where you're coming from; for some reason it really rubbed me the wrong way when Ric Flair won the IC Title. I'm glad I'm not alone because Ric Flair holding the IC title just did not feel right. Bret winning the US in WCW was a completely travesty the fact that he was feuding with Sting once made it worse.
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Post by #DI-WHY? on Jan 15, 2017 17:23:28 GMT -5
It's not bad for a main eventer to drop down to the mid card and capture the mid card title for a while like ambrose dropping to the IC title picture.
It's bad for a main eventer to capture the mid card title and then keep it in the main event, like Reigns holding up the US title.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jan 15, 2017 17:29:51 GMT -5
I'm a firm detractor of this. I prefer mid-card titles to be used for talent that is great in the ring, but not quite ready for the main event. Talented guys like Zayn, Corbin, Neville, or Crews. Cena winning the US title seems to be the only exception and that is because he used that spot to face new talent and make the younger guys look good. I love Ambrose but I was not trilled when he defeat Miz for the IC title. Feels like a consolation prize and a step back to where he was two years ago. IMO Ambrose should always been in World title contention. I have to beg to differ with you on the Cena US Title run. Yes, he did give all these mid card guys a chance, but when he lost the US Title, who did he lose it too?? The WWE World Champion. They made the US Title seem more important than the WWE World Title, because Cena had it and lost it. Then when Cena won it back off Seth, he was more concerned with winning the US Title more so than the WWE World Title, and who did Cena lose it too?? Former multiple time WWE World Champion Alberto Del Rio. Cena did nothing to help elevate new talent. He could have lost the US Title to Cody Rhodes, or Kevin Owens, or Dean Ambrose, and he didn't do any of that. He lost it to the WWE World Champion and a former multiple time WWE World Champion.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 17:29:57 GMT -5
I'm a firm detractor of this. I prefer mid-card titles to be used for talent that is great in the ring, but not quite ready for the main event. Talented guys like Zayn, Corbin, Neville, or Crews. Cena winning the US title seems to be the only exception and that is because he used that spot to face new talent and make the younger guys look good. I love Ambrose but I was not trilled when he defeat Miz for the IC title. Feels like a consolation prize and a step back to where he was two years ago. IMO Ambrose should always been in World title contention. I agree completely about the mid card belts being used for the young guys and just like the old days it did help build them. I found Cena's US reign to be very nostalgic because it was the belt that started his rise to the top. It's a shame though that Del Rio was the guy he lost it to instead of putting a younger guy over. Being a huge Ambrose fan winning the IC title months after losing the World title has left a bad taste in my mouth. Like someone else said KO and Ambrose's feud for the belt last year put both guys higher up the ladder so winning the IC title again has kinda brought Ambrose back down again. IMO it should be either the World title or nothing at all.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 17:32:41 GMT -5
He was already, what, a five time world champ when this happened? Yeah but there was a good reason for that. HHH winning the IC title in 2001 was so both of the Two man Powertrip could hold single titles.
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Post by marino13 on Jan 15, 2017 17:34:18 GMT -5
I'm a firm detractor of this. I prefer mid-card titles to be used for talent that is great in the ring, but not quite ready for the main event. Talented guys like Zayn, Corbin, Neville, or Crews. Cena winning the US title seems to be the only exception and that is because he used that spot to face new talent and make the younger guys look good. I love Ambrose but I was not trilled when he defeat Miz for the IC title. Feels like a consolation prize and a step back to where he was two years ago. IMO Ambrose should always been in World title contention. I have to beg to differ with you on the Cena US Title run. Yes, he did give all these mid card guys a chance, but when he lost the US Title, who did he lose it too?? The WWE World Champion. They made the US Title seem more important than the WWE World Title, because Cena had it and lost it. Then when Cena won it back off Seth, he was more concerned with winning the US Title more so than the WWE World Title, and who did Cena lose it too?? Former multiple time WWE World Champion Alberto Del Rio. Cena did nothing to help elevate new talent. He could have lost the US Title to Cody Rhodes, or Kevin Owens, or Dean Ambrose, and he didn't do any of that. He lost it to the WWE World Champion and a former multiple time WWE World Champion. I don't disagree with what you said about him losing it. But I thought he made guys like Zayn, Neville, & Ambrose look like they were ready for the big time. They all came close or at least took "the Face that Runs the Place" to the limited. IMO they were elevated even in a losing effort.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 17:35:02 GMT -5
It's not bad for a main eventer to drop down to the mid card and capture the mid card title for a while like ambrose dropping to the IC title picture. It's bad for a main eventer to capture the mid card title and then keep it in the main event, like Reigns holding up the US title. I'm not a fan of Ambrose as IC champion. I believe he's above that title now. As for Reigns well the Universal title is so bad the US has overtook it as the main title lol.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 17:38:45 GMT -5
I'm a firm detractor of this. I prefer mid-card titles to be used for talent that is great in the ring, but not quite ready for the main event. Talented guys like Zayn, Corbin, Neville, or Crews. Cena winning the US title seems to be the only exception and that is because he used that spot to face new talent and make the younger guys look good. I love Ambrose but I was not trilled when he defeat Miz for the IC title. Feels like a consolation prize and a step back to where he was two years ago. IMO Ambrose should always been in World title contention. I have to beg to differ with you on the Cena US Title run. Yes, he did give all these mid card guys a chance, but when he lost the US Title, who did he lose it too?? The WWE World Champion. They made the US Title seem more important than the WWE World Title, because Cena had it and lost it. Then when Cena won it back off Seth, he was more concerned with winning the US Title more so than the WWE World Title, and who did Cena lose it too?? Former multiple time WWE World Champion Alberto Del Rio. Cena did nothing to help elevate new talent. He could have lost the US Title to Cody Rhodes, or Kevin Owens, or Dean Ambrose, and he didn't do any of that. He lost it to the WWE World Champion and a former multiple time WWE World Champion. This 100% that is what I hated about his US run. I didn't mind his loss to Rollins because it made him a double champion but when he won it back he should've lost it to a rising star like you said. It reminds me of Lesnar's title reign because no one benefited from beating Lesnar for the title because Rollins pinned Reigns.
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Post by punksnotdead on Jan 15, 2017 17:41:32 GMT -5
I'm fine with it. I thought when Triple H did it and we got the Two Man Power Trip it was awesome.
I'd probably argue the best title run of Cena's entire career was his US Title run.
Guys largely don't hold titles long enough these days to make them prestiges through just booking. So main eventers taking a step back every now and then to boost those titles up is usually good for everyone.
Reigns dropping down to the US Title opened the door for Owens. That has been way better for Raw than tying up the Universal Title with Reigns imo. I think the step back has slightly helped Reigns too. Probably be all for not though if he beats Owens at Rumble.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jan 15, 2017 17:44:10 GMT -5
I have to beg to differ with you on the Cena US Title run. Yes, he did give all these mid card guys a chance, but when he lost the US Title, who did he lose it too?? The WWE World Champion. They made the US Title seem more important than the WWE World Title, because Cena had it and lost it. Then when Cena won it back off Seth, he was more concerned with winning the US Title more so than the WWE World Title, and who did Cena lose it too?? Former multiple time WWE World Champion Alberto Del Rio. Cena did nothing to help elevate new talent. He could have lost the US Title to Cody Rhodes, or Kevin Owens, or Dean Ambrose, and he didn't do any of that. He lost it to the WWE World Champion and a former multiple time WWE World Champion. I don't disagree with what you said about him losing it. But I thought he made guys like Zayn, Neville, & Ambrose look like they were ready for the big time. They all came close or at least took "the Face that Runs the Place" to the limited. IMO they were elevated even in a losing effort. That is true, he did help make those wrestlers seem legit. Then the WWE writing team made Zayn and Neville look like crap again. Thankfully Neville is finding his stride in the 205 Live situation and being a ruthless heel.
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Post by k5 on Jan 15, 2017 17:45:27 GMT -5
He was already, what, a five time world champ when this happened? yeah. this was just rlly bad booking considering that they had jeff hardy beat triple h and then lose it back to him 6 days later. jeff - who was at the perfect time in his career for a big push - ended up looking second rate.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2017 17:48:55 GMT -5
I'm fine with it. I thought when Triple H did it and we got the Two Man Power Trip it was awesome. I'd probably argue the best title run of Cena's entire career was his US Title run. Guys largely don't hold titles long enough these days to make them prestiges through just booking. So main eventers taking a step back every now and then to boost those titles up is usually good for everyone. Reigns dropping down to the US Title opened the door for Owens. That has been way better for Raw than tying up the Universal Title with Reigns imo. I think the step back has slightly helped Reigns too. Probably be all for not though if he beats Owens at Rumble. I'm not hating on Owen's but I think Reigns would've been a better Universal champion and made the belt mean something. KO has been overshadowed by Jericho and even the list is more over than the title which is making Owens look like a weak champion,. For the last few years the US title was treated like crap but since Reigns won it it has become more important than the Universal championship which makes me believe Reigns would've been a better choice.
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