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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 23:45:05 GMT -5
I was inspired to create this thread after listening earlier to a podcast about how, according to the host, we shouldn't be able to watch a Chris Benoit match without thinking about the fact that he's a murderer.
To me, there is a separation between an art and an artist; a separation, even, between individual moments. In a wrestling match, there can be a botch, but it just makes that PART of the match bad, not the whole thing. We can watch an episode of The Cosby Show without thinking about the crimes of the man. Bill Cosby should be in prison, as should Benoit if he had not killed himself, but I can still enjoy the art.
Better yet, if an entity like Nazi Germany - or even ISIS - created a comical television show, could we enjoy it? Not only did Nazi Germany kill six million, but ISIS lunatics want ME (or us) dead simply for bringing dishonor to the god of the Qur'an and living Western lives. If their leader created a funny sitcom and it somehow got leaked in the US (probably against their will, no entertainment for the inferior Westerners) - and NBC decided to air it weekly - would you watch? I would, and I say that with one hundred percent seriousness. Creation and creator are two different things.
So the question is, can entities and people be separated from art? Can moments be separated from each other? Or is everything to be considered "one" - does one rotten banana destroy the whole bunch?
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Quazimoto
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Post by Quazimoto on Jul 12, 2017 0:27:40 GMT -5
I think they can be separated, yes. To use the Christ Benoit example. Christ Benoit the man was obviously deeply troubled and committed a heinous and unforgiveable act. Yet, the person we all saw on in the ring every week was a character on a television show. I can no longer watch the Hard Knocks documentary that was made about his life and career, but I have no problem watching, and thoroughly enjoying, Christ Benoit wrestling matches.
I have a similar attitude towards many actors and musicians. I find a great number of them to be... Well, let's just say they aren't the type of people I would ever want to hang out with. Despite that, I can still enjoy their on screen or on stage personas. I judge art based on the quality of the work, not the quality of the artist as a person.
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Post by vampiroporvida on Jul 12, 2017 9:40:59 GMT -5
I think it comes down to how much you personally care about the person and offense that occured. There are times when it can be seperated, and times when you cannot personally stomach them anymore. Each person brings their own mind and experiences to the cases which then influences them to boycott that person, per say, where others may not feel as strongly on that because they do not have a connection to the offense, regardless if they care for the person or not.
I am more of a person whom finds music or movies to be a cathartic experience, so I try not to block off something that could make me feel good, just because someone in it, or that made it, did something bad. There are exceptions I can see though on the horizon, like you say, ISIS artists or something.
I also do not think it is right to ban/censor material from whom we deem bad, because someone could get something useful from it, even though we don't. Granted this is a slanted view, because of the way I get fulfillment/peace from entertainment, but if it can help one person, let it be, just block it out from your mind if you don't like them.
There is also the backwards effect that makes the offenses you did make the material more popular, but that is a whole other discussion. That is just weird.
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Post by T R W on Jul 12, 2017 10:22:11 GMT -5
To an extent I think we can and we can't. I imagine it depends more on the individual.
I don't like Tom Cruise and his wacky religion very much. However I am able to successfully put that aside when I watch and enjoy his movies.
Chris Benoit was my favorite wrestler for over a decade. However I can barely stomach watching any of his matches, and when I do see them it is impossible for me to put it out of my mind.
I think Bono is a grade A douche but I still enjoy a lot of his music.
It really comes down to the individual and what the person's offenses are.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 12:28:52 GMT -5
I think it comes down to how much you personally care about the person and offense that occured. There are times when it can be seperated, and times when you cannot personally stomach them anymore. Each person brings their own mind and experiences to the cases which then influences them to boycott that person, per say, where others may not feel as strongly on that because they do not have a connection to the offense, regardless if they care for the person or not. I am more of a person whom finds music or movies to be a cathartic experience, so I try not to block off something that could make me feel good, just because someone in it, or that made it, did something bad. There are exceptions I can see though on the horizon, like you say, ISIS artists or something.I also do not think it is right to ban/censor material from whom we deem bad, because someone could get something useful from it, even though we don't. Granted this is a slanted view, because of the way I get fulfillment/peace from entertainment, but if it can help one person, let it be, just block it out from your mind if you don't like them. There is also the backwards effect that makes the offenses you did make the material more popular, but that is a whole other discussion. That is just weird. VPV Indeed, though as I said, I'd say that we CAN enjoy art by a member of an extremist group (as long as the art isn't constantly preaching the beliefs of the creator). Art and artist are two separate things. Another example - could a gay person (or even a black person, really) enjoy a silent film from 1916, even though it's essentially guaranteed that everyone who worked on and acted in said film would have thought horrible things of gay people (or even black people)? I'd say so. These are interesting questions to ponder, but the main idea of "separation between art and artist" is what's important, I'd say.
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Post by vampiroporvida on Jul 12, 2017 12:41:06 GMT -5
Indeed, though as I said, I'd say that we CAN enjoy art by a member of an extremist group (as long as the art isn't constantly reminding us of the beliefs of the creator). Art and artist are two separate things. Another example - could a gay person (or even a black person, really) enjoy a silent film from 1916, even though it's essentially guaranteed that everyone who worked on and acted in said film would have thought horrible things of gay people (or even black people)? I'd say so. These are interesting questions to ponder, but the main idea of "separation between art and artist" is what's important, I'd say. My bad, I meant that it would be a problem for me, personally. Now, I might watch the TED talk from an ex extremist, just to see how he changed, but that would be about it for me. But all in all, you are right.
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Post by Mongo Bears on Jul 12, 2017 13:47:41 GMT -5
Yes seperate
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Post by Fighter Hayabusa on Jul 12, 2017 15:17:17 GMT -5
Its hard to separate when artist is present in the art. You watch a Benoit match, you see Benoit, you're reminded of his heinous actions, you know you're watching a murderer. Same with The Cosby Show. Its hard to laugh at Heathcliff sneaking a hoagie when you know the actor portraying him is a serial rapist. Now if the artist isn't present its easy to block out the artist's actions. You can watch a Roman Polanski film and not have the constant reminder that the filmmaker drugged and raped a 13 year old girl.
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Post by Nivro™ on Jul 12, 2017 15:32:34 GMT -5
can i? sure...can others? thats up to them. Either way their opinion doesnt bother me or change my mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 16:19:01 GMT -5
Indeed, though as I said, I'd say that we CAN enjoy art by a member of an extremist group (as long as the art isn't constantly reminding us of the beliefs of the creator). Art and artist are two separate things. Another example - could a gay person (or even a black person, really) enjoy a silent film from 1916, even though it's essentially guaranteed that everyone who worked on and acted in said film would have thought horrible things of gay people (or even black people)? I'd say so. These are interesting questions to ponder, but the main idea of "separation between art and artist" is what's important, I'd say. My bad, I meant that it would be a problem for me, personally. Now, I might watch the TED talk from an ex extremist, just to see how he changed, but that would be about it for me. But all in all, you are right. No problem! Enjoyed your post. I hope you wouldn't mind if I were to ask - what about the work of the extremist would make you refuse to enjoy it? There was definitely a time in my life when I wouldn't have enjoyed it, I suppose it's a pride thing; "I would never enjoy the art of someone who wants to kill me!" Along with the Benoit podcast mentioned above, I also recently discussed this with a friend studying psychology - the concept is known as "splitting" or "all or nothing" thinking. When you look at the art for what it is, however - creator aside (assuming the creation has no message of wanting to kill Westerners within it) - there's the artist and the piece of art. The two are completely separate. Interesting article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)It's an interesting discovery, certainly. Best regards!
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Post by ahunter8056 on Jul 12, 2017 16:57:21 GMT -5
We should be able to, but some reason most people don't seem able to. I've never understood why WWE have a habit of trying to wipe stars from history books. Just because a specific event happens doesn't mean that their career didn't happen. I have no problem watching a Benoit match.
I think that Moolah was a vile piece of scum, but her in-ring career still happened. Even if it sickens me how much WWE promote her as "a trailblazer", despite holding women's wrestling back with her stranglehold, her in-ring career is still a part of history.
Outside of wrestling, the TV show 'The Thick of It' had to replace one of the main characters after the actor was found guilty for possessing child pornography. Despite how sick that is, I can still enjoy watching his character in the show, and to be honest I feel the show was best with him in it.
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Post by BoJack Hogan on Jul 12, 2017 17:29:24 GMT -5
I can still watch and enjoy Benoit's matches. As horrible as what he allegedly did was I can easily put it out of my mind. Terrible stuff happens every day, and enough terrible things have happened to me that I am less affected by the terrible things that happen to people I have never met. Yes, I'm so desensitized to it all through the news, media, and my own personal experiences that it's relatively easy to detach for the length of time that it takes to watch an incredible match.
As far as morality goes, call me selfish but I'm not going to punish myself by ruining the experience because of what Benoit allegedly did. This may not be the best example, but if I spoke German - as someone fascinated by eloquent speech - I could see myself watching Hitler's earlier speeches in awe of his delivery and charisma while not beating myself over the head with the lurid details of his reprehensible actions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 17:43:42 GMT -5
I can still watch and enjoy Benoit's matches. As horrible as what he allegedly did was I can easily put it out of my mind. Terrible stuff happens every day, and enough terrible things have happened to me that I am less affected by the terrible things that happen to people I have never met. Yes, I'm so desensitized to it all through the news, media, and my own personal experiences that it's relatively easy to detach for the length of time that it takes to watch an incredible match. As far as morality goes, call me selfish but I'm not going to punish myself by ruining the experience because of what Benoit allegedly did. This may not be the best example, but if I spoke German - as someone fascinated by eloquent speech - I could see myself watching Hitler's earlier speeches in awe of his delivery and charisma while not beating myself over the head with the lurid details of his reprehensible actions. Exactly, that's a perfect example. I can appreciate his performances (since that's basically what they were), and I'm a JEW! Well, my father's side of the family is Jewish, at least. As I said so many times above, art and man are separate.
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WreckerJack
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Post by WreckerJack on Jul 13, 2017 6:19:55 GMT -5
Yes and no. If they do something dopey that's one thing. But if they do something really bad like being bigoted, murder or rape then I don't want to support the career of someone who does those things. I wouldn't get mad at someone for liking a wrestler's performance or character despite them being someone I don't like in person. There are wrestlers that I feel that way about yet don't choose to support them (Not buying their figures or shirts). Either way, I don't want to get hung up on things too much to the point I can't enjoy wrestling for what it is.
On the other hand I can see myself separating character and human when it comes to wrestlers I dislike. I can't stand Roman but I don't think he's a bad human. I just don't like his character.
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Post by vampiroporvida on Jul 13, 2017 9:47:27 GMT -5
@tedbaxter I thought long and hard about your last query about why I couldn't enjoy anything from, for example, extremists, and I am at a loss as to how to describe why I feel that way. The best I can come up with, like you explained, the splitting psychology. At a certain point, no matter what, I cannot deem anything, including art, from someone so heinous to be ok. I would not support anything from them, even if that was the single greatest piece of art/entertainment ever. It is like I transfer my hate of them to the art, because of how much I hate that person/group. I wouldn't call for a boycot, or ever say someone should not watch/enjoy it, but I, myself, just can't. As logically explained as it is, it is illogical to me as well, as I always want to find some good about someone/something, but with that angle, too much history and fear has completely shut me off. At a certain point, even for reformed members of any like group, forgiveness and change is too little too late for me....disapppointed in myself for that, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the time and good topic.
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sisterabigail
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Post by sisterabigail on Jul 13, 2017 14:00:13 GMT -5
Some actions overshadow any sort of reputation someone or something has.
Benoit was a great wrestler, but he murdered his family.
Swastika was an old religious symbol, now forever tarnished by the nazi party. The same way Pepe the frog was a dumb meme, now the symbol of alt-right closet racists.
I appreciate everything Benoit ha's done in the ring, but nothing will change the fact that he was a murderer.
Most wrestling fans are biased, because of the memories they have of him in the ring.
The same people the will brush this under the rug and still glorify him, are the same that bash people for having an interest in famous murderers.
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Post by Valbroski on Jul 13, 2017 18:59:34 GMT -5
Some actions overshadow any sort of reputation someone or something has. Yeah, this is word for word what I was going to reply with. In the same respect, I don't crucify people who can look past horrible actions.
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Post by Yayo on Jul 14, 2017 15:33:31 GMT -5
Like others have said, it comes down to the person and the act. I can look past R. Kelly's alleged peeing on teens and still play 12 Play, but I'm never going to watch a Chris Benoit match again in my life
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Post by k5 on Jul 14, 2017 17:29:45 GMT -5
it matters, to me at least, how much the art and the person behind it are seperated. so i might be able to watch chris benoit matches, but a documentary on him released before all the tragedy focussing on the man behind the career would be a bit too much.
i dislike tarrantino with a passion, but a number of his movies are great films.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Jul 20, 2017 5:03:21 GMT -5
As a general rule, it's an important life lesson to learn that while you might like an artist's music/film/painting/writing etc, that isn't a license to revere that individual. The culture of celebrity has a tragic history of being laced with deplorable behavior, and often enabling it to a greater degree. That's the harsh reality of it, and if you try to rid yourself of every book, Blu-ray, and album that has some connection to immoral or illegal behavior from a contributor, you'll be left with little or nothing from the world of entertainment.
That being said, I understand those individuals who feel that there are times when it becomes an ethical dilemma to enjoy a particular piece of art. While I didn't feel the need to throw my Cosby Show DVDs in the garbage, I wouldn't go see a Bill Cosby presentation today, knowing that my money would go to the legal defense of an admitted sexual predator. Likewise, there are numerous people from the WWF/E's past whom I wouldn't pay to get his or her autograph, or even talk to him or her, despite enjoying their respective on-air abilities.
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