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Post by Fighter Hayabusa on Sept 21, 2017 14:22:47 GMT -5
I don't think there's a market for a full blown series. One or two figures every month or so I think is what your average person who collects Legends and Flashbacks is willing to buy. I don't the Legends line died due to poor choices. It died because there were too many choices. Not too many people are gonna wanna buy Stone Cold, and Dusty, and Animal, and Hawk, and Steamboat, and Slaughter, and so on for the tag teams and the upcoming series. When you look at your budget and what its gonna take to collect everything, a lot will just pass altogether rather than just pick and choose which figures they'd want the most. I think that is what started happening again recently. Flashbacks started appearing more and more in the regular elite line and then popping up everywhere as exclusives. It was getting a little overwhelming with all the Legends/FBs dropping at about the same time. I am thinking that is why Mattel has started to scale back.
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Post by kennyw86 on Sept 21, 2017 14:36:39 GMT -5
I agree with what you said here about Sherri. But I don't like what you said about Savage lol. Would you be mad if the first Sherri was in a two pack with savage? I kind of would be mad to be honest. Savage has had way too many figures in Mattel's tenure. Sherri should have really been made in HOF series 1 instead of Trish. Unless there is a legality issue, Sherri is overdue. I'm not trying to rag on Savage. He's a legend, a hero. But dang there's a point where seeing the same guy three times a year is enough. Especially when there are a lot of great figures that can be made. If Jimmy Hart has been made then Sherri should be made in single form. I would not be opposed to a Battle Pack with Savage as a second figure for her. But as a debut Mattel, Sherri deserves a single packed figure. I agree with all you said about scraping the bottom of the barrel. Tugboat, quake, typhoon, jyd, warlord, berserker... But leave macho alone!! Id take no more warrior, flair, taker...but macho? I dont wanna go white girl...but i just cant even right now
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Post by mattelwwecollector on Sept 21, 2017 14:41:07 GMT -5
Jakks CS line is now 10+ years old. It was a different business then. Also lets not forget Jakks REALLY cut corners. If there was a market for a Legends only set, I am sure Mattel would be doing it. However, that "Lost Legends" Elite set was a good example of how a Legends only line would perform and that warmed pretty hard, at least around my area. I partly agree with you but we can't look at the lost Legends line as an example That warmed because everyone already owned the figs, I personally think a full Legends line would fail but only if they made a ton of them, for it to work it would need to be more of an exclusive line and only make 50% of what comes out of the normal line I like the idea of the upcoming attitude era line on amazon something like that with more characters would work
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Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Sept 21, 2017 15:16:26 GMT -5
I kind of would be mad to be honest. Savage has had way too many figures in Mattel's tenure. Sherri should have really been made in HOF series 1 instead of Trish. Unless there is a legality issue, Sherri is overdue. I'm not trying to rag on Savage. He's a legend, a hero. But dang there's a point where seeing the same guy three times a year is enough. Especially when there are a lot of great figures that can be made. If Jimmy Hart has been made then Sherri should be made in single form. I would not be opposed to a Battle Pack with Savage as a second figure for her. But as a debut Mattel, Sherri deserves a single packed figure. I agree with all you said about scraping the bottom of the barrel. Tugboat, quake, typhoon, jyd, warlord, berserker... But leave macho alone!! Id take no more warrior, flair, taker...but macho? I dont wanna go white girl...but i just cant even right now If it weren't for the obvious ignorance (which isn't an insult, it just mean 'lack of knowledge'.Ignorant doesn't mean dumb or stupid) I'd climb a hill and star shouting down at you. Instead, I'll just point out that JYD at one point was a regional icon, and is responsible for record setting numbers in Mid-South. Not impressed? He sold out arenas multiple times and packed huge numbers to the Superdome. Your personal hero, D'Lo Brown can't say that, huh? And Earthquake?! How can one say that Warrior deserves 50 figures yet the guy WHO OUTDREW HIM during his WORLD TITLE run doesn't? I'm not saying make 20 versions of the guy, but calling him "bottom of the barrel" is ignoring the fact that he outdrew any heel you can name that was around in that time period. Or after! For like 7 years. So, when you go to make your TIL post, make sure to include "Earthquake was the best drawing WWF heel from 1990-1998".
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MWFD
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Post by MWFD on Sept 21, 2017 15:46:51 GMT -5
Jakks CS line is now 10+ years old. It was a different business then. Also lets not forget Jakks REALLY cut corners. If there was a market for a Legends only set, I am sure Mattel would be doing it. However, that "Lost Legends" Elite set was a good example of how a Legends only line would perform and that warmed pretty hard, at least around my area. I can't disagree that a Legends-exclusive line just doesn't seem to be very profitable for Mattel. With that said, I don't think the Lost Legends is a great illustration as to why. With the exception of Magnum TA, a character that many young WWE collectors (read: not NWA) were unlikely to be familiar with, the 5 figures in the "Lost Legends" line were all re-releases. I've spoken against the idea of re-releases in the past, but if Mattel is going to do it, they could've at least chosen more sought after figures. I'd love to know what Mattel's planning and research teams provided that lead to a re-release of E23 Undertaker and E19 HBK? Who was clamoring for that? E12 Kane or Legends 5 Macho would've been a different story. The "Lost Legends" line wasn't the only legends line that seemed to be borderline-sabotaged. Obviously the original Legends line (including 2-Packs) were fatally flawed in terms of strategical character and attire choices, and now Target's HOF 2-Pack and HOF line in general seems to have suffered the same fate. It's unlikely Mattel has a sleeper of a line on their hands with legends, but even still, they really couldn't have done much worse in setting up each of their legend-exclusive lines to fail. Target's HOF1 series was probably the best start any of these lines received. So is it any coincidence that the HOF line continued for several years based on the success of this first series? Too bad the HOF's hot start wasn't capitalized on. Between HOF2 through the uber-anticipated HOF5, Mattel has probably released a total of 3 figures that've helped the line grow (Hogan, Yoko, Macho) and even that's debatable. Bottom line, Mattel seems to have given up on Legends and while it's easy to say, "they just don't sell as well", perhaps a little accountability on Mattel's part is due. A significant portion of the blame should fall on their strategic planning team (or whomever decides on the lineups); if I didn't know any better, I'd think the company wanted the legend-exclusive lines to fail miserably time and again.
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Post by kennyw86 on Sept 21, 2017 15:55:45 GMT -5
I agree with all you said about scraping the bottom of the barrel. Tugboat, quake, typhoon, jyd, warlord, berserker... But leave macho alone!! Id take no more warrior, flair, taker...but macho? I dont wanna go white girl...but i just cant even right now If it weren't for the obvious ignorance (which isn't an insult, it just mean 'lack of knowledge'.Ignorant doesn't mean dumb or stupid) I'd climb a hill and star shouting down at you. Instead, I'll just point out that JYD at one point was a regional icon, and is responsible for record setting numbers in Mid-South. Not impressed? He sold out arenas multiple times and packed huge numbers to the Superdome. Your personal hero, D'Lo Brown can't say that, huh? And Earthquake?! How can one say that Warrior deserves 50 figures yet the guy WHO OUTDREW HIM during his WORLD TITLE run doesn't? I'm not saying make 20 versions of the guy, but calling him "bottom of the barrel" is ignoring the fact that he outdrew any heel you can name that was around in that time period. Or after! For like 7 years. So, when you go to make your TIL post, make sure to include "Earthquake was the best drawing WWF heel from 1990-1998". So nowhere did i say warrior needed any figures let alone 50. I said no more. I never even mentioned dlo brown. Think you quoted the wrong guy buddy. But, as long as we are on the topic, jyd. I dont give a flying about a regional icon. My apologies to those that loved the 70s and 80s and havent yet moved on.
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popyduggan
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Post by popyduggan on Sept 21, 2017 16:30:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't get why they don't capitalize more on the names they have, like we should have a ton more HBK, Sting, Sherri, Bobby Heenan, etc. When they're done right, they sell. I guess that doesn't explain DM 99 Taker, Ringmaster, and Tito, but NS Shawn, DM crow Sting, and Foley's latest elites sold quickly where I live.
Well, if the Becky proto's part of womens line, maybe Gene's part of a new line too?
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Post by kennyw86 on Sept 21, 2017 16:51:50 GMT -5
So nowhere did i say warrior needed any figures let alone 50. I said no more. I never even mentioned dlo brown. Think you quoted the wrong guy buddy. But, as long as we are on the topic, jyd. I dont give a flying about a regional icon. My apologies to those that loved the 70s and 80s and havent yet moved on. Look at all that vitriol! lol, I think it's funny you thought I was quoting you on the D'Lo thing. It's a Tony Kornheiser thing from PTI. I guess you're ignorant of ESPN as well? Little advise? When you learn something, instead of being mad at yourself for being ignorant, just accept that you don't know everything. I'll tell you, if I lived in a world where I didn't enjoy learning new things, it'd be a really sad existence. I don't think that I've like, ever learned about a wrestler drawing money and gotten mad like that... Really man, learning is cool. Im glad you love learning...cuz you gon' learn today. 1. Espn? Espn? Es ing pn? The programming on that network has sucked since they decided poker was a sport. 2. Im not sure where i got mad at anyone drawing money. Maybe you took my not caring for jyd as holding some sort of anger towards him? Nope. 3. The word is ADVICE not ADVISE. You can give a person advice. You cannot give them advise. But i guess you might just be a little ignorant about the english language.
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bigjohnnybadd
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Post by bigjohnnybadd on Sept 21, 2017 16:56:34 GMT -5
I am sure many are now part of the concussion lawsuit. And with the exception of the upcoming "Too Cool" members and the past Rikishi I don't think any we have gotten are scraping the bottom of the barrel.He may not have ever been a main draw, but Rikishi was one of the most popular all around stars of his era! His figure is very hard to find and expensive. Too Cool were a hugely popular midcard team when they were all together too. Surely that's far from scraping the bottom of the barrel!
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Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Sept 21, 2017 16:58:22 GMT -5
Look at all that vitriol! lol, I think it's funny you thought I was quoting you on the D'Lo thing. It's a Tony Kornheiser thing from PTI. I guess you're ignorant of ESPN as well? Little advise? When you learn something, instead of being mad at yourself for being ignorant, just accept that you don't know everything. I'll tell you, if I lived in a world where I didn't enjoy learning new things, it'd be a really sad existence. I don't think that I've like, ever learned about a wrestler drawing money and gotten mad like that... Really man, learning is cool. Im glad you love learning.. .cuz you gon' learn today. 1. Espn? Espn? Es ing pn? The programming on that network has sucked since they decided poker was a sport. 2. Im not sure where i got mad at anyone drawing money. Maybe you took my not caring for jyd as holding some sort of anger towards him? Nope. 3. The word is ADVICE not ADVISE. You can give a person advice. You cannot give them advise. But i guess you might just be a little ignorant about the english language. You caught me! But at a score of 11-1, you have me SOUNDLY beat. But for real, Earthquake drew MAD money against Hulk in the summer of 1990. Like, he significantly drew better than other heels working with Hogan at the time.
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Post by mrmonkeyofficial on Sept 21, 2017 17:36:13 GMT -5
I am sure many are now part of the concussion lawsuit. And with the exception of the upcoming "Too Cool" members and the past Rikishi I don't think any we have gotten are scraping the bottom of the barrel. But there is still so many people not on the concussion lawsuit that have not been made by mattel yet, like Greg "The Hammer" Valentine (Who should of been made by now), Koko B Ware (Don't know if he is against wwe), Don Muraco, Bob Backlund, "Superstar" Billy Graham, The list goes on and on, and even some managers like Sensational Sherri and Mr. Fuji,
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Post by BoJack Hogan on Sept 21, 2017 17:59:55 GMT -5
I have to agree with what many have already said. Jakks cut corners BAD! That's why Rikishi used the Yokozuna body when a much smaller one would've sufficed. That's why Kamala had the Yoko feet and weird black calf straps that he never had. That's why the first 2 Andres were R3s, the first of which was literally Andre's head on a Big Show (two-strap singlet, wrist tape, kneepad) body. That's why all suited figures were GIANTS - they couldn't be bothered to make shorter pants legs. That's why they literally released the exact same Giant/Big Show figure two series in a row with the exact same jumpsuit. That's why a bulldogs tag team was released with a braided Davey Boy head in spite of having a more accurate head available. That's why instead of having more accurate models that Earthquake, Typhoon, and Vader were all morbidly obese with different cloth singlets. Terrible terrible terrible. It must have been so much cheaper to produce more.
I also have to take issue with people talking about Tatanka and Berzerker as scraping the bottom of the barrel. First, I have rarely seen Tatanka at retail. Maybe two or three times, and he was a huge star in the New Generation, as crappy as it was. Warlord...great figure, but Powers of Pain would've been preferable. Now if we are talking about bottom of the barrel, lets talk about Tank Abbott and Johnny Rodz, hmmm?
As for Attitude being retro and 80's being forgotten to time, I don't agree with that at all. I have NEVER seen Beefcake in stores, but I have seen Mankind about a hundred times. Ditto for 2001 Rock, 1996 Goldust, Spotlight McMahon, and 1999 HHH from E23 (the Savage was the first to go, thank you). Rikishi, NAO, I can go on. Maybe it depends on your area, but no, the 80's figs aren't just warming hard and AA figs flying off the shelves. The purchases are down across the board. I will give you Tugboat and Narcissist though, those are still at every Target.
The biggest problem however is probably the limitations on guys that can be made. There likely won't be any more Demolition figures, no Repo Man (not that I want one), Kona Crush, Koko B Ware, One Man Gang, or anyone who is suing them. There is a severe, stifling shortage of Hogans that is ruining things for me. I wouldn't be shocked never to see more obscure guys like Bastion Booger or guys from different territories like Sullivan or Meng.
All of that said, the main barrier is that it is a different time. It's what, 14 years later than when CS1 was first released? The price point was much lower, nobody had gotten their Legend (of any era) fill and now we have. Its all been done before, and aside from people on these forums I feel like a lot of people were pretty good to go after CS. A lot of people didn't have the money to restart. Even myself, when I started CS I lived at home, now I live in a one bedroom apartment with my fiance, I don't have room to keep buying everything. Maybe if Mattel had come out of the gates with barrels blazing it would've been easier, but the underwhelming lineups of Legends 1 and 2 mixed with the fact that anyone who wanted Legends had years to collect whoever they pleased (minus Macho) ensured that Legends wouldn't take off the way CS did. I think the days of full series dedicated to Legends is over, at least for a while.
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Post by PJ on Sept 21, 2017 18:14:31 GMT -5
I am sure many are now part of the concussion lawsuit. And with the exception of the upcoming "Too Cool" members and the past Rikishi I don't think any we have gotten are scraping the bottom of the barrel.He may not have ever been a main draw, but Rikishi was one of the most popular all around stars of his era! His figure is very hard to find and expensive. Too Cool were a hugely popular midcard team when they were all together too. Surely that's far from scraping the bottom of the barrel! Rikishi as part of the Headshrinkers or Samoan SWAT team yes very entertaining. As Rikishi he was nothing more than a punch line to JR and Kings weekly @$$ jokes. A complete joke. As far as his figure goes it wasn't hard to find around here when it was released I passed on it at least 10 times between TRU and 3 Targets. Didn't see the assortment at either WalMart. And i didn't find Scotty Too Hotty and Grand Master the least bit entertaining. And my opinion of them was worse when Rikishi joined them. I even found Shane McMahon more entertaining and with him I thought paint drying on a wall was more entertaining. I am sure many are now part of the concussion lawsuit. And with the exception of the upcoming "Too Cool" members and the past Rikishi I don't think any we have gotten are scraping the bottom of the barrel. But there is still so many people not on the concussion lawsuit that have not been made by mattel yet, like Greg "The Hammer" Valentine (Who should of been made by now), Koko B Ware (Don't know if he is against wwe), Don Muraco, Bob Backlund, "Superstar" Billy Graham, The list goes on and on, and even some managers like Sensational Sherri and Mr. Fuji, I would buy all those (as all are on my top 20 list of wants) except Koko. And Koko was rumored to be on the way until the concussion lawsuit went public and he was listed on it.
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Hitman Bono
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Post by Hitman Bono on Sept 21, 2017 18:22:40 GMT -5
I have to agree with what many have already said. Jakks cut corners BAD! That's why Rikishi used the Yokozuna body when a much smaller one would've sufficed. As bad as that was, the R3 Rikishi kicked so much ass. I loved that line, until, like RA, they got lazy. But yeah, spot on with 99% of what you said.
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Post by Codyverse: Tag Team Champion on Sept 21, 2017 19:09:24 GMT -5
Undertaker Shawn Michaels Ultimate Warrior Sting Macho Man Scott Hall Kevin Nash Triple H Kurt Angle Ric Flair Chris Jericho The Rock Stone Cold Bret Hart
That's 14 guys that are legends that they could easily build a line off of. Release two in a legends set every few months and that could easily get them two years out of that line.
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Post by One Punch Reigns on Sept 21, 2017 19:20:53 GMT -5
As much as I would love for a dedicated Legends line to return, especially since there's sparse flashbacks in upcoming Elite waves (If the rumor sheet is to be believed), there's a high probability it wouldn't last, but there are some factors to consider:
The original Legends line was a flop because of a myriad of circumstances like many Jakks Classics collectors feeling gutted having to effectively start their collection from scratch and the recession that was happening at the time didn't help matters.
Plus there was the frequency of which Mattel was pumping out Legends and there was less restrictions on who they could do figures of like Jakks had where basically they could go to the wrestler or estate in question and get approval without a middleman. Now WWE basically says that wrestlers must be under legends deals to get figures made which is not a bad thing on the surface, but if you have beef with WWE or part of a lawsuit fashioned by an ambulance chasing lawyer, there's no chance in Hell.
That being said, there are plenty of legends who have yet to have figures made of them and they're under contract. The elusive Greg Valentine for one, or Michael Hayes and the Freebirds, I think the Kevin Von Erich, managers like Mr. Fuji and announcers like Gorilla Monsoon, to say nothing of Sensational Sherri. We just got Kurt Angle back and he's already getting several flashbacks in the works. The legends deal is what would make a new line fail unless they loosened their restrictions or the lawsuit came to a settlement and any of the guys on the list can have figures made again.
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Post by PJ on Sept 21, 2017 19:36:31 GMT -5
Mattel overproduced the figures. With the 2-Packs my local TRU had over 100 cases of them. That was 600 pieces 200 of each set this one store had to sell. With Jakks they never received more than 4 cases of any CSTT wave.
And with the singles they released series 1 & 2 at the same time to every retailer as well as the KMart HOF line which was basically the same exact figures as Legends series 1 & 2 but with a cardboard plaque. So there was no reason for anyone to buy the regular series if they picked up the HOF line or vise versa. HOF should have at the very least been repainted instead of straight rereleases.
This is what they should have done... Austin - really could only be the same. Maybe with a different vest. Dusty Rhodes - Legends Polka dots/HOF NWA version. Steamboat - Legends Red/HOF WMIII Slaughter - Legends red, white, blue/ HOF Camouflage Snuka - Legends tights & boots/HOF barefooted & trunks. Funk - Legends red trunks/ HOF striped tights.
That would have at least given collectors a reason to buy both.
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Post by SteveHulk on Sept 21, 2017 22:07:12 GMT -5
Undertaker Shawn Michaels Ultimate Warrior Sting Macho Man Scott Hall Kevin Nash Triple H Kurt Angle Ric Flair Chris Jericho The Rock Stone Cold Bret Hart That's 14 guys that are legends that they could easily build a line off of. Release two in a legends set every few months and that could easily get them two years out of that line. You could add Goldberg and the Hardy's to that list too(!). And Foley...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 22:26:56 GMT -5
I think looking at the news now about Toys R Us filing bankruptcy helps kind of understand why the Legends line wasn't successful. For years now people aren't buying as much in stores. People buying in stores will buy more current stuff than classic stuff. That's where Mattel and Jakks kind of deviate in terms of business model. Mattel is more bottom line focused. They want to do what they can to have a cool line, but they gotta hit those numbers at the end of the day. Jakks seemed to care about having a more wide selection, even if it meant cutting corners. They seemed to almost be happy with whatever profit they could make. If Rey Mysterio was the same size as Kevin Nash they didn't have a problem. They saw it as "Here's Rey Mysterio and Kevin Nash and someone else with the same parts and it half painted." The parts also made it easier for Jakks to spit out more. Fat guys had the same mold. Big Bossman had a weird untucked shirt so that they wouldn't have to make a new mold. Mattel made a new mold. Mattel not cutting corners gives them less room for light sales. I completely agree. If Mattel just cared about making some money and paid no attention to detail our andre's would be the same height as dynamite kid! Not saying Mattel doesn't have its flaws but they are a lot closer to scale then jakks ever was. And I would love more legends but I'll take scale and attention to detail over pumping out head sculps on the same generic body over and over again.
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Post by Codyverse: Tag Team Champion on Sept 21, 2017 23:42:20 GMT -5
Undertaker Shawn Michaels Ultimate Warrior Sting Macho Man Scott Hall Kevin Nash Triple H Kurt Angle Ric Flair Chris Jericho The Rock Stone Cold Bret Hart That's 14 guys that are legends that they could easily build a line off of. Release two in a legends set every few months and that could easily get them two years out of that line. You could add Goldberg and the Hardy's to that list too(!). And Foley... Absolutely. So we got 20 guys most people could name at least two different attires that they want That's 40 figures right off the bat
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