havoc7179
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Joined on: Oct 16, 2012 9:11:18 GMT -5
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Post by havoc7179 on Dec 14, 2017 9:33:24 GMT -5
Ultimo Dragon. Mistico. Nakamura.
Three fairly large names in their respective home countries. Three decorated champions in their respective home countries (and in the case of the Ultimate Dragon as Tony Schiavone would say, decorataed champion in WCW).
Yet, they floundered in WWE. Is it because of the language barrier? I remember when Dragon came to WWE. They portrayed him as another Rey Mysterio type. Even their entrance videos were nearly identical to one another. Yet, after a few months at best, he was an after thought on the show. As a member of hte SD Roster he should have thrived in the workrate show and Cruiserweight division. Yet, never won a title.
Mistico. Not sure what happened here. Maybe it was the botches. Maybe it was the language. Maybe it was his failure to adapt to the WWE style. But, this guy never caught on. I thought he was a highly hyped acquisition.
Nakamura. Too early too tell what is going on with him. He still gets big pops. A lot of people think he got lazy, but I think he adapted to the WWE style. While NXT trains you to perform in the WWE style, NXT still gives the wrestlers freedom. A lot of fans seem to not realize this but if you notice, Paige, Sasha Banks, Bayley, Emma, Roode, Nakamura, Dillinger, Breeze were tearing it up in NXT, then they moved to the main roster and just have signature moves. It's the WWE style. Get your spots in a 5-10 minute match. I digress though. It seems like they are hesitant to pull the trigger on any title range for Nakamura, but tease it relentlessly. Maybe the modern Chris Jericho in that regard.
Anyways. Point is. You had three heavily hyped wrestlers who debuted, and then were lost in the shuffle. What happened or is happening? And, to be honest, while I like Nakamura, I don't view him on the same level as an AJ Styles or a John Cena. I see him as a talented midcarder who can step up to fill in the uppercard when needed--kind of like Dolph Ziggler pre Cash In Concussion Era.
Dragon I figured would hold the Cruiserweight and maybe US title from time to time. Mistico/Sin Cara would be a decent IC Champion or Tag Champion. Yet, WWE didn't go with it.
You can even add KENTA and Chris Hero to the mix. I know Hero was more of a look issue, but Owens got around it. KENTA may be as a result of injuries. I don't really focus on them too much because they're still in developmental.
TL;DR?
How did WWE mishandle debuts of international stars like Ultimo Dragon, Mistico, Nakamura,
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Dec 14, 2017 10:19:45 GMT -5
The booking of Ultimo Dragon surprised me. His debut was hyped for weeks and after his first match he ended up on Velocity with no feuds or title reigns.
A wrestling legend at the time who should've been treated better.
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Post by bababooey on Dec 14, 2017 10:31:18 GMT -5
Ultimo Dragon got lost in the shuffle a bit and he was somewhat past his prime by the time he got there.
Mistico was rumored to have a poor attitude backstage and it’s been said he didn’t want to learn English simply because he didn’t like the language. That was likely the cause of many of his botches. Then there was the injuries and wellness policy violations.
I think Nakamura will be fine but he can’t possibly live up to the hype that the indy crowd are expecting. Also, long promos he’s had have really exposed his accent (from what I understand he’s fluent in English but has trouble with pronunciation). He was also just thrust into the main event scene before being established with the general audience that likely doesn’t know him from his prior work.
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Post by vampiroporvida on Dec 14, 2017 10:38:44 GMT -5
Instead of a tl;dr rant, I will say when you alter a style (or show the care and caution in their character) of someone who has worked the same way enough to be a legend in many people's minds, then alter it, sometimes things go wrong. There is also the added problem of the talent not meshing well, but the restrictions out now make this more of a case for current talent. I wish legends like them would come in on short term contracts to see if they mesh well with it all, and if both sides are satisfied. I know it isn't really marring their legacies, but it is just sad to see. Rey once said something along the lines of Paul E told them to just go have fun [and do what they wanted]; creative freedom is a must in a match.
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Post by marino13 on Dec 14, 2017 11:30:36 GMT -5
Ultimo Dragon was before his time (as far as WWE goes). I also don't think he helped his case when he slipped and fell live on PPV. I got a hunch that didn't sit well with Vince. Plus (I could be wrong) he didn't speak English well, so that hindered chances of him giving a good promo. Another trait Vince prefers.
Mistico refused to go to NXT to learn the WWE style. He thought he was above that. Turns out, he should have went, because he seemed lost in there from the get go. Constant botches forced them to use lighting effects to hide his mistakes. And he seemed to be injured all the time. The last straw was him stopping a match for stubbing his finger. That's why Del Rio stomped the hell out of him. IMO, this one is not on WWE as much as it was Mistico's fault.
Nakamura, I will say the verdict is still out. Things could change. NXT had built him up well, as I think Triple H is a fan. But I just don't think Vince sees it. Which is a shame, because I think he could/should be special. A feud with AJ or Finn might change Vince's mind. That is of coarse if he's ever given a chance.
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havoc7179
Main Eventer
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Joined on: Oct 16, 2012 9:11:18 GMT -5
Posts: 4,189
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Post by havoc7179 on Dec 14, 2017 11:47:11 GMT -5
I agree with all the points made thus far. I do want to clarify one thing. I'm of the belief that not everybody can be the WWE champion no matter how big a fan I am of them. So while I'd love to see Roode get a WWE title run, I'd be ok with it not happening. Same goes for Nakamura. You can't have a full uppercard as it crowds the uppercard and causes you to lose the lower card completely.
I also forgot to add Finn Balor--a guy I'm sort of a fan of but never got the appeal. First time I saw him wrestle live was against Tyler Breeze. All he did was kick and chop.
I also want to say that I assume that some wrestlers don't care where they get on the card, as it's a job. So while the Good Brothers may be dominant outside the states, and are a comedy act in the states, I don't think they care as they're getting a big pay day in the end. I'm not a mark in that regard. My question is more along the lines of "why did WWE quickly stop using them?" The GB came in, did a big angle with Styles and Cena, and eventually got moved down the card. Dragon and Mistico never saw the top of the card ever.
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Post by jayrod2009 on Dec 14, 2017 12:13:42 GMT -5
They all were taken from the atmosphere they thrived in. Dragon was good because he had a fast and you g roster to work with. WWE wrestling doesn't match that style. Same can be said for Nakamura and Mystico.
I hate to say this, but a potato chip had more charisma than Nakamura. His wrestling again, is awesome in Japan and indy shows because it matches that specific genre of wrestling. He is just that. A wrestler, not a sports entertainer. Its why NXT is fun, because its treated as indy. Same reason why guys like Black won't do well on WWE TV. Same reason why Sami hasn't shined. Same reason I would rather keep those names in NXT.
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Deleted
Joined on: Apr 19, 2024 15:40:18 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 15:11:20 GMT -5
A lot of people think AJ vs Nakamura will be one of the main events of wrestlemania, but I think there is a better chance Shinsuke will be back in Japan by then because of how they mishandled him. Bottom line is this, if you have a thick foreign accent, you won't be a main event player in wwe no matter how good you are in the ring. You have to be a giant like Andre and Khali. Those guys had thick accents, but were so huge WWE couldn't help but push them.
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Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Dec 14, 2017 15:30:27 GMT -5
If you wanna see Dragon booked better, you should check out 2001: A Wrestling Odyssey in the sims board.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Dec 16, 2017 13:27:00 GMT -5
I will also say that Ultimo Dragon and Vader are by far WWE's biggest failures. The way those two were treated is beyond insane. Sid ing Viscous had a better run than both of them. Think about that.
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Post by King of Kings on Dec 16, 2017 13:58:16 GMT -5
I'm' not sure how anyone can say Nakamura been messed up. It's barely been a year. I know that the internet thinks he should be in the middle of the ring ing AJ Styles with the WWE Title around his neck at Wrestlemania every week but you can't just slap a belt on every guy that comes up from NXT. He adapted to the WWE Style to give himself longevity and he's getting the 2nd or 3rd biggest pop every week on Smackdown, and also has main evented the past few PPV's Nakamura is anything but a mess up in WWE. Right now the program is AJ and Jinder. They throw the belt on Nakamura and then what? FFS
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Post by A-Rob on Dec 16, 2017 14:55:52 GMT -5
What killed Mistico was that he had such a big ego since he was the biggest draw in Mexico (he was basically the 2nd coming to El Santo) he felt he didn't have to change a thing. It also didn't help he refused to learn english and only 4 people con the roster at the time could work his style.
When Nakamura goes 100% he's so great only few can touch him but you can tell he's only going 50% and some what coasting on his charisma since WWE's schedule is harder than New Japan's and outside of a few people on the roster the quality of opponents is worse.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Dec 17, 2017 8:36:27 GMT -5
Mistico was just awful. Not sure what happened with Ultimo, I don't even remember anything of his WWE run other than the botched Mania entrance. Nakamura is near the top of the card still, so he's doing okay - but he hasn't been particularly impressive since his NXT debut. Hopefully a big match with AJ at Mania will inspire him to step up his game.
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robbutler01
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Joined on: Feb 10, 2013 15:10:27 GMT -5
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Post by robbutler01 on Dec 17, 2017 11:09:46 GMT -5
I'm more shocked that anyone people are surprised that WWE messed up and misused talent. they have a loooooong history of misusing talent and pretty sure they always will. For every Steve Austin and Hogan there will always be a sure fire hit that misses in spectacular style - just thankful that AJ missed the bullet!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 11:37:50 GMT -5
They even misused Steve Austin at first with the ringmaster gimmick. If wcw wasn't winning the war who knows if they would have taken a chance with him.
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Post by k5 on Dec 17, 2017 12:07:43 GMT -5
it’s all about presentation, and wwe only knows how to properly present a talent if they came up with the formula.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 14:19:10 GMT -5
This guy is the reason. Well one of the reasons...but mainly the main one. Of course it's my opinion so anyone can feel free to tell me how wrong I am.
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Post by Charlie f'n Kelly on Dec 17, 2017 15:00:48 GMT -5
I just need to add that it wasn’t that Kassius was fat, it was that he GOT fat. He gave up, and got really lazy. I don’t know why, or I don’t remember, but he didn’t care anymore and they didn’t want to waste their time with him if he wasn’t going to put in the work and be healthy. Whereas Owens is just kinda a naturally chubby guy, but still hits the gym and still makes an effort to stay in shape (stay in shape, not lose weight, there’s a difference). At least that’s what I heard a while after he was released. I could be wrong.
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Post by Vamp55 on Dec 17, 2017 16:09:37 GMT -5
Nakamura is going to be just fine... his match at Mania should define this run, and I think he will be in a high profile match. I am hopeful it’s against AJ... if that happens - all will be forgotten
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Post by GreyHaze:Big Bad Booty Daddy on Dec 17, 2017 16:31:14 GMT -5
The ultimo dragon thing is still a mystery to me. The guy is a legend and I think should of been main event status in wwe. Just hand him a mouth piece and he should of been set. I wish he would sign a legends deal or Mattel could go out of their way to sign him exclusively to get fb or figure of a DM moment treatment. It would be a thing of beauty.
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