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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 17, 2010 9:05:08 GMT -5
If the argument was that chimps have better memory than humans I'd agree. Fair enough, but memory has nothing to do with intelligence. Some humans possess an eidetic memory. It doesn't make them any more intelligent than those who don't.
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Post by Oskanowski on Jul 17, 2010 12:00:03 GMT -5
Wow, C14 is OUTTA HERE. lol. But yeah.. If they aren't as smart as humans, they are pretty damn close.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 17, 2010 12:48:46 GMT -5
I don't know how you even think they're close. Homo Sapiens runs this planet because we are vastly more intelligent than any other known form of life on it.
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Post by Oskanowski on Jul 17, 2010 13:18:11 GMT -5
That depends on how you're looking at it. There really isn't much of a difference between them and us. They are way stronger, have a faster reaction time, better memory... They pretty much do what we do. They have a job to do, we have jobs to do. They walk to get where they need to, or swing from trees, or get help from their mother or father, we walk to get where we need to, instead of swinging from trees, we use cars, and we get help from the parents. They communicate with each other, just like we do. They are ranked the smartest animal on Earth. We just like to think we are smarter than all animals, but we aren't.. Like I said before, I'm not selfish enough to believe we are the almighty of all the solar system. We aren't.. We are very far from it, Just because they don't have a computer, or a stove to cook on, don't mean they are the dumbest when put next too a human.
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Post by KMIS™ on Jul 17, 2010 13:46:05 GMT -5
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 17, 2010 13:58:02 GMT -5
That depends on how you're looking at it. There really isn't much of a difference between them and us. They are way stronger, have a faster reaction time, better memory... They pretty much do what we do. They have a job to do, we have jobs to do. They walk to get where they need to, or swing from trees, or get help from their mother or father, we walk to get where we need to, instead of swinging from trees, we use cars, and we get help from the parents. They communicate with each other, just like we do. They are ranked the smartest animal on Earth. We just like to think we are smarter than all animals, but we aren't.. Like I said before, I'm not selfish enough to believe we are the almighty of all the solar system. We aren't.. We are very far from it, Just because they don't have a computer, or a stove to cook on, don't mean they are the dumbest when put next too a human. There's a certain irony in your referring to taxonomy when have previously dismissed arguments made from taxonomical grounds. Anyway, you could argue that dolphins are far more intelligent than chimps. A lot of biologists have made the argument. It's not that chimps don't have a stove or a computer it's that they lack the ability to create one. They lack the ability to invent. Dictionary.com defines intelligence as "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings." There's no way you can argue that chimps exceed humans in any of that. You fall back on them being physically stronger, faster, etc..., but these attributes have no relationship at all with intelligence. My goldfish can breathe underwater. My dog has a better sense of smell than I do. The neighborhood squirrel is a better tree climber than I am. There's a sparrow in the tree who can fly and I can't. There are worms who are much better diggers than I am. I'm still smarter than all of these animals combined. Physical abilities have nothing at all to do with intelligence.
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Post by KMIS™ on Jul 17, 2010 14:01:09 GMT -5
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Post by Oskanowski on Jul 17, 2010 14:16:35 GMT -5
"capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings."
They can learn just like we can. They understand, and do all of that. If they have a faster reaction time, and better memory, I see them battle other apes, isn't that just like having a fight at school? Or when apes throw poop or rocks at one another, isn't that the same as using a gun in their case? They have relationships with others, walk in groups. They usually have a leader of the group that you can see them following, not all the time, but usually, & wouldn't that be like having a King/President? lol. They are pretty close to being smarter than a human, Just my opinion.
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Post by K5 on Jul 17, 2010 14:32:53 GMT -5
honest to god, if you believe that, you're as smart as a chimp.
...i guess you wouldn't argue that.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 17, 2010 14:35:07 GMT -5
"capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings." They can learn just like we can. They understand, and do all of that. If they have a faster reaction time, and better memory, I see them battle other apes, isn't that just like having a fight at school? Or when apes throw poop or rocks at one another, isn't that the same as using a gun in their case? They have relationships with others, walk in groups. They usually have a leader of the group that you can see them following, not all the time, but usually, & wouldn't that be like having a King/President? lol. They are pretty close to being smarter than a human, Just my opinion. My dog can learn. My dog can understand. My dog has a better sense of smell than I do. My dog will fight other dogs. My dog has relationships with other dogs. My dog walks in groups with other dogs. One dog will lead the pack and the others will follow him. Therefore, my dog is smarter than me. All I did there is substitute dog for chimp.
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Post by S on Jul 17, 2010 14:47:17 GMT -5
I've seen some stuff on this and tbh, i'm skeptical about it... i think the 'outcome' is suspiciously human, i would think there would be more deviation than that
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Post by Oskanowski on Jul 17, 2010 14:58:43 GMT -5
"capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings." They can learn just like we can. They understand, and do all of that. If they have a faster reaction time, and better memory, I see them battle other apes, isn't that just like having a fight at school? Or when apes throw poop or rocks at one another, isn't that the same as using a gun in their case? They have relationships with others, walk in groups. They usually have a leader of the group that you can see them following, not all the time, but usually, & wouldn't that be like having a King/President? lol. They are pretty close to being smarter than a human, Just my opinion. My dog can learn. My dog can understand. My dog has a better sense of smell than I do. My dog will fight other dogs. My dog has relationships with other dogs. My dog walks in groups with other dogs. One dog will lead the pack and the others will follow him. Therefore, my dog is smarter than me. All I did there is substitute dog for chimp. But the dog can't push buttons on a screen and have a better memory as a chimp.. Plus dogs aren't smarter than chimps.. So that's just dumb to even bring up, same with Goldfish.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 17, 2010 15:08:12 GMT -5
My dog can learn. My dog can understand. My dog has a better sense of smell than I do. My dog will fight other dogs. My dog has relationships with other dogs. My dog walks in groups with other dogs. One dog will lead the pack and the others will follow him. Therefore, my dog is smarter than me. All I did there is substitute dog for chimp. But the dog can't push buttons on a screen and have a better memory as a chimp.. Plus dogs aren't smarter than chimps.. So that's just dumb to even bring up, same with Goldfish. My dog can push buttons. Maybe they can't push buttons on a screen, but that's just because they don't have hands. You can easily train a dog to push a button that's on the floor for example. Lots of people have trained their dogs to push a button when they need to go outside. A lack of a hand isn't a measurement of intelligence. Memory is not a measurement of intelligence. People with eidetic memories are not necessarily more intelligent. Please stop linking memory with intelligence.
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Post by Oskanowski on Jul 17, 2010 15:25:33 GMT -5
But it's a known fact Chimps are smarter than all animals. So no point in bringing them up, If humans are smarter than chimps, than the next thing down would be a chimp or some other sort of monkey.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 17, 2010 15:31:56 GMT -5
But it's a known fact Chimps are smarter than all animals. So no point in bringing them up, If humans are smarter than chimps, than the next thing down would be a chimp or some other sort of monkey. I brought it up because you were using several examples of why chimps are just as smart if not smarter than humans. Yet a dog can do every thing you listed in your example. None of the things you listed have anything at all to do with intelligence. Intelligence (as the definition I gave earlier) is mainly the capacity to learn. Humans have this over chimps in spades. Dolphins have this over chimps. The reason why we use backhoes to dig holes and a chimp would use their bare hands? We have learned that a machine is better than our bare hands. Then we've improved on a simple machine (like a shovel) with something that is far, far more effective. We humans are so much more intelligent than a chimp or a dolphin that it's not even funny. It's one thing to believe something when there's no evidence at all for it, it's another thing to believe something when all the evidence says otherwise. Please cite one study that says that chimps are more intelligent than humans.
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Post by Oskanowski on Jul 17, 2010 16:20:09 GMT -5
AH. Well, very good point. Well, I still say they are the next thing down from Humans.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2010 18:24:36 GMT -5
You could never argue that chimps are more intelligent than humans, it's a silly argument. Humans have -- according to secular anthropology -- been using at least stone tools for 2.5 million yrs. You might be able to argue that a chimp, over millions of years could (according to Darwinian Evolution -- the theory that this is all chaotic and pure happenstance -- which I don't subscribe to, but I'm not dogmatic about the age of the earth and other things of that nature) evolve into something smarter than a human, but by then humans would have evolved into something even greater as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 3:51:09 GMT -5
That depends on how you're looking at it. There really isn't much of a difference between them and us. They are way stronger, have a faster reaction time, better memory... They pretty much do what we do. They have a job to do, we have jobs to do. They walk to get where they need to, or swing from trees, or get help from their mother or father, we walk to get where we need to, instead of swinging from trees, we use cars, and we get help from the parents. They communicate with each other, just like we do. They are ranked the smartest animal on Earth. We just like to think we are smarter than all animals, but we aren't.. Like I said before, I'm not selfish enough to believe we are the almighty of all the solar system. We aren't.. We are very far from it, Just because they don't have a computer, or a stove to cook on, don't mean they are the dumbest when put next too a human. There's a certain irony in your referring to taxonomy when have previously dismissed arguments made from taxonomical grounds. Anyway, you could argue that dolphins are far more intelligent than chimps. A lot of biologists have made the argument. It's not that chimps don't have a stove or a computer it's that they lack the ability to create one. They lack the ability to invent. Dictionary.com defines intelligence as "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings." There's no way you can argue that chimps exceed humans in any of that. You fall back on them being physically stronger, faster, etc..., but these attributes have no relationship at all with intelligence. My goldfish can breathe underwater. My dog has a better sense of smell than I do. The neighborhood squirrel is a better tree climber than I am. There's a sparrow in the tree who can fly and I can't. There are worms who are much better diggers than I am. I'm still smarter than all of these animals combined. Physical abilities have nothing at all to do with intelligence. Let me know when the average human invents a computer .
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Post by Deep Figure Value on Jul 18, 2010 8:33:33 GMT -5
While I doubt we'll ever see the day of the chimp evolved in modern society, it certainly does make for great cinema!
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 18, 2010 8:37:23 GMT -5
There's a certain irony in your referring to taxonomy when have previously dismissed arguments made from taxonomical grounds. Anyway, you could argue that dolphins are far more intelligent than chimps. A lot of biologists have made the argument. It's not that chimps don't have a stove or a computer it's that they lack the ability to create one. They lack the ability to invent. Dictionary.com defines intelligence as "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings." There's no way you can argue that chimps exceed humans in any of that. You fall back on them being physically stronger, faster, etc..., but these attributes have no relationship at all with intelligence. My goldfish can breathe underwater. My dog has a better sense of smell than I do. The neighborhood squirrel is a better tree climber than I am. There's a sparrow in the tree who can fly and I can't. There are worms who are much better diggers than I am. I'm still smarter than all of these animals combined. Physical abilities have nothing at all to do with intelligence. Let me know when the average human invents a computer . Let me know when the average chimp even knows how to turn one on.
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