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Post by Kliquid on Feb 6, 2011 20:27:37 GMT -5
A case could easily be made that Strikeforce's heavyweight division is BETTER than UFC's right now. And PRIDE's certainly was.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 6, 2011 23:27:46 GMT -5
Whoever wins this PRIDE tournament will be the #1 HW in the world right now. Dana White won't agree, but that's the truth.
The thing is, the UFC fighters have also had difficulty leaving and going to other companies. See Chuck Liddell when he went to PRIDE. He was one of, if not the UFC's top guy while Dana badmouthed PRIDE; then he went over there and got absolutely HAMMERED by Rampage.
I guess my point is that I just think it's preposterous for a guy to get smack talked about him just because he doesn't fight in the UFC. If he's beating top guys, he's beating top guys - it doesn't matter where it's happening.
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Post by nexusonnen on Feb 7, 2011 8:18:50 GMT -5
I don't think Fedor even needs the UFC at this point, and vice versa. His legacy as the best Heavyweight of the modern era has already been cemented...
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2011 10:06:31 GMT -5
Hmmm... I don't think it's as clear-cut as that - it will depend on two things: 1. how the winner wins and how impressive he looks and 2. what happens with Brock, Dos Santos, Carwin and Velasquez. Let's face it, this Strikeforce "tournament" is mainly a publicity stunt - there are only really 3 fights that matter: Overeem Vs Werdum, Fedor Vs Werdum/Overeem, then the winner Vs whoever gets through on the other side of the brackett (probably Josh Barnett). Say if Fedor beats the winner of Overeem/Werdum in a close fight and then Barnett by split-decision - while Dos Santos beats Lesnar and then Velasquez for the title, both in impressive fashion... Dos Santos would probably be ranked #1. It's all "ifs and buts" at the moment... we'll have to wait until the smoke clears to determin who the best is. Dos Santos won't get his title shot before this tournament is over, from what I understand. So for at least until the rematch of Cain/Lesnar or Cain/Dos Santos happens, I believe the top HW in the world will be on the Strikeforce roster. Especially if Overeem wins it. Well we'll just have to disagree I'm afraid... Look at Cro-Cop - back in '06 he'd looked awesome in PRIDE and I was sure he was going to come to the UFC and dominate the division. We all know what happened next. I just think it's hard to justify a fighter being called the undisputed best, when he has never fought in the world's largest and most popular MMA organization... I don't understand your logic here. Guys left UFC and were mediocre in PRIDE, too, as I mentioned with Chuck (who UFC went on to tout as the best LHW in the world after getting murdered by Rampage). Same with Sylvia and Arlovski who were MACHINES in the UFC and then have been absolutely horrible since leaving. At one point, Dana White used Arlovski/Sylvia as his points of reference to "prove" why Fedor isn't the best HW in the world. Fedor went on to viciously murder both of them. Not everyone necessarily transfers over well, but you've got guys like Rampage, Shogun, Anderson Silva, Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, Nogueira, etc. who have made successful transitions. When Fedor was dominating in PRIDE, he was facing the best guys in the world. The UFC was promoting their heavyweights as the best but they were all guys who were outside the top-5 in the world. |
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Post by The Undertaker on Feb 7, 2011 11:24:07 GMT -5
I don't think Fedor even needs the UFC at this point, and vice versa. His legacy as the best Heavyweight of the modern era has already been cemented... You must not have seen his fight against Werdum.. |
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2011 12:35:36 GMT -5
I don't think Fedor even needs the UFC at this point, and vice versa. His legacy as the best Heavyweight of the modern era has already been cemented... You must not have seen his fight against Werdum.. Losing ONE fight makes a person not the best of all-time? Interestingly terrible theory. |
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2011 18:52:10 GMT -5
Well Chuck did beat Alistair Overeem in PRIDE before that Rampage fight... and this was before Chuck's great streak ('04-'06). I've said it before, Couture knocked the fight out of Sylvia... he was never the same. Nogueira almost choked him to death too... Sylvia was pretty much done after that fight (that's why they let him go with a fight still on his contract). And Arlovski was never the same after the second Sylvia fight. Overeem was a completely different fighter, but yeah. I guess my point is that Rampage wasn't even PRIDE's top LHW and he absolutely kicked the crapout of Chuck... Yet Dana still claimed Chuck was the best LHW in the world "because he was in the UFC" beating guys like Jeremy Horn and Vernon White. Yeah, Nogueira hasn't been excellent, but he hasn't embarrassed himself. I think we need to keep in mind that he was training with a staph infection for the Mir fight, which is likely a lot of the reason he looked bad. Other than that, he has beat respectable fighters in Heath Herring and Tim Sylvia while also beating one of the best of all time in Randy Couture... And this is at age 34. Imagine him in his prime, maybe 8 years ago or so... That's when Fedor beat him - twice. Badly. We'll never know what? Whether he would have transitioned well into the UFC? We'll never know whether Cain Velasquez would transition well to Strikeforce, either. Or to PRIDE. I don't see your point here. All we can go off of is the information we have. And the information we have is that Fedor absolutely murdered top-10 guy after top-10 guy during their primes. Would it be awesome to see him in the UFC? Yes. But his status as the best HW of all-time is not really debatable at this point. There really isn't anyone else who has the resume Fedor does, including the current guys in the UFC. |
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Post by SteveHulk on Feb 7, 2011 20:36:04 GMT -5
We'll never know what? Whether he would have transitioned well into the UFC? Yes - and how he'd have fared against their top fighters in the Octagon. Would he be as dominant, or would he lose some of his edge? Or might he even "do a Cro-Cop"? ...because the UFC is by far the world's largest, most successful, and popular MMA organization. It's the "elite" of the MMA world and for a lot of people, the only place that matters. PRIDE is dead and long gone and Strikeforce is comparatively a very minor-league promotion... |
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Post by James Hetfield on Feb 7, 2011 20:38:56 GMT -5
So because it's popular, it's the best? May as well change your username to Zuffa Zombie.
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Sandy
POSSIBLE BAD TRADER
Joined on: Dec 17, 2004 14:33:52 GMT -5
Posts: 5,868
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Post by Sandy on Feb 7, 2011 21:00:07 GMT -5
haha...I swear to GOD, James is Bloodstain Lane.
I completely agree with Kliquid though....especially about the Chuck Liddell thing....yes he was dominant but look at the guys he was facing..none of them were elite strikers besides Vitor when Vitor had a lot of sh** to deal with.
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Post by SteveHulk on Feb 7, 2011 21:23:49 GMT -5
So because it's popular, it's the best? May as well change your username to Zuffa Zombie. It's the best because it is by far the world's largest and most successful MMA organization. Honestly, it's not rocket-science - no MMA fan in their right mind should not class the UFC as the best MMA oraganization in the world. And I'd rather be a "Zuffa Zombie" than a "Strikeforce Stooge".  ;D |
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Post by James Hetfield on Feb 7, 2011 21:26:14 GMT -5
It's the  ing SPORT of MMA, MMA does not equal UFC, bozo. |
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Post by 1992 on Feb 7, 2011 21:35:34 GMT -5
SteveHulk, let it go bro. At this point you're embarrassing yourself. And I swear I mean that in all respect.
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Post by SteveHulk on Feb 7, 2011 21:48:57 GMT -5
It's the ing SPORT of MMA, MMA does not equal UFC, bozo. LIGHTEN UP, bozo!  Are you guys honestly saying that the UFC is not the largest and most successful MMA company in the world..?  |
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Post by James Hetfield on Feb 7, 2011 21:49:48 GMT -5
Yeah, those are my exact words.
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Post by Kliquid on Feb 7, 2011 22:08:20 GMT -5
It's the ing SPORT of MMA, MMA does not equal UFC, bozo. LIGHTEN UP, bozo! Are you guys honestly saying that the UFC is not the largest and most successful MMA company in the world..? No one is saying that. What we're saying is that just because they're the biggest company doesn't mean that they automatically have the best fighters. If I put on 50 pounds and jumped into the cage in the UFC against some other random scrub for the UFC title, that doesn't make me an elite fighter just because "I'm fighting in the UFC." The UFC's heavyweight division was NOTORIOUSLY bad during Fedor's prime. PRIDE's heavyweight division was clearly better and anyone other than Dana White would agree with that. |
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Post by 1992 on Feb 7, 2011 22:18:59 GMT -5
BUT HE HAS TWITTER
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