Revvie®
Main Eventer
Somewhere between Reality, and the Absurd
Joined on: Jun 29, 2005 1:04:26 GMT -5
Posts: 4,327
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Post by Revvie® on Mar 18, 2011 15:18:49 GMT -5
The economy maybe taking its toll but as people should we willingly start giving up our freedoms and rights that we were given, due to a failing economy...
I mean I work my 40 hours and do what I need to...but I feel like we have to have some principals...I told my last job goodbye after they told me if I didnt help getting someone they deemed undesired to quit...then my job my be the next one they look at closely.
I'm sorry...we have to stand our ground at some juncture...especially when times are at their worst.
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Post by Kliquid on Mar 18, 2011 15:35:28 GMT -5
Depends on what state you're in. In some states they can fire you for anything other than the religion, race, gender, etc..... stuff. So if you say you won't work Sundays, they can turn around and fire you because your eyes are blue. Or because they aren't blue. Or whatever. You can sue them and claim they fired you because of religious reasons, but they'll just say that it was because you wore blue socks and they like black socks. Then you're screwed. Bingo. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 18, 2011 15:39:08 GMT -5
Depends on what state you're in. In some states they can fire you for anything other than the religion, race, gender, etc..... stuff. So if you say you won't work Sundays, they can turn around and fire you because your eyes are blue. Or because they aren't blue. Or whatever. You can sue them and claim they fired you because of religious reasons, but they'll just say that it was because you wore blue socks and they like black socks. Then you're screwed. Bingo. He tells them he can't work Sundays, they are fine with that. Then they want him to work Sundays, he says no because he already explained to them he couldn't. They keep asking him to work Sundays and he refuses. Would him being fired after that just be a huge coincidence? |
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Mar 18, 2011 15:42:35 GMT -5
As long as you make it clear to them that you can't work on any Sunday for a religious reason, then I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to fire you.
I mean, they could always play the dirty politics game and come up with something else, but it would be too coincidental and you might be able to sue them.
I hope everything works out for you.
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Post by BØRNS on Mar 18, 2011 17:09:43 GMT -5
About the Muslim with the beard, his beard did not affect his productivity of work. If it had, then it would be interferring with the job/company. However, your attendence directly impacts the productivity of your job. You've been loyal to the company for 3 1/2 years, which is great, and shows that you are loyal to your bosses and job. Indeed this is a sticky situation. The way I see it, not going in to work on any given day with an excuse is the same. What if your child was sick? Would you still go in? Or would you take the day? I view this as a personal choice. Your boss asks, or begs you to work on Sunday, and you refuse for whatever the reason be. The only two scenarios the company cares about is whether your working that day or not. The reason does not make a difference to them. Of course, they can be understanding and everything, but the results will be the same- you're either there, or not. The ball is in your corner, and you have to make the decision of which is more important. Going to work, or going to church. If you choose to go to church, then you have chosen your religion over work, and must accept the consequences that follow. Likewise, if you go in for work, you must accept the consequences that follow. If they really NEED you to work on Sunday, could you negotiate with them to pay you overtime, or something like that? See, the problem is that if there are other employees there that typically work Sundays, they'll be bitching about why you'd be getting paid overtime, etc. I'm really sorry, but ultimately, you have to choose either your religion, or work. I would choose work, because it would solidify my loyalty to the company. You mentioned that you recieved a promotion a while back? Maybe they need someone with experience or a higher level position to work Sunday? What type of job do you have? Where do you work? Then if a company has a problem with gay people. Either choose work or being gay. Either choose work or being black. See how awful the situation could get? Absolutely not Slappy! The company doesn't have a problem with him being a certain religion. This has nothing to do with what religion, race, or sexual orientation one is. IT IS A MATTER OF SHOWING UP TO WORK OR NOT. Regardless of reason. How does being gay or black affect the attendence of your job? Obviously the company is perfectly accepting of different people, as they allowed the Muslim man to keep his beard. Like I say, it did not affect productivity of the company. Being gay doesn't affect productivity of the company. Being black doesn't affect productivity of the company. NOT SHOWING UP TO WORK AFFECTS PRODUCTIVITY OF A COMPANY. That's the bottom line. You either make money or you don't. If they don't have employees working, they are not making money. It's that simple. You can live on Mars, and if you're not working, the company is losing producvtivity. This doesn't have anything to do with minorities or sexual orientation, or religion, or having cancer, or anything. It's so simple in the eye's of a business. What would being gay have anything to do with your work schedule? Are you just looking for ways to make people look discriminatory when they clearly are not? |
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Post by Guy Incognito on Mar 18, 2011 17:31:32 GMT -5
For a second I read the title as "I'm a blind"  You're not the only one. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 18, 2011 20:26:12 GMT -5
Then if a company has a problem with gay people. Either choose work or being gay. Either choose work or being black. See how awful the situation could get? Absolutely not Slappy! The company doesn't have a problem with him being a certain religion. This has nothing to do with what religion, race, or sexual orientation one is. IT IS A MATTER OF SHOWING UP TO WORK OR NOT. Regardless of reason. How does being gay or black affect the attendence of your job? Obviously the company is perfectly accepting of different people, as they allowed the Muslim man to keep his beard. Like I say, it did not affect productivity of the company. Being gay doesn't affect productivity of the company. Being black doesn't affect productivity of the company. NOT SHOWING UP TO WORK AFFECTS PRODUCTIVITY OF A COMPANY. That's the bottom line. You either make money or you don't. If they don't have employees working, they are not making money. It's that simple. You can live on Mars, and if you're not working, the company is losing producvtivity. This doesn't have anything to do with minorities or sexual orientation, or religion, or having cancer, or anything. It's so simple in the eye's of a business. What would being gay have anything to do with your work schedule? Are you just looking for ways to make people look discriminatory when they clearly are not? If they won't let him off of work for his religious activities then they are discriminating against him. They've gone this far being ok with it, they can't just change that over night. He is showing up for work. They've been fine until recently about him not working Sundays. Now they want him to and that interferes with his religion. I'm going off your he has to choose his religion or his work. Why should he have to choose? What if a company didn't like someone being gay, they'd have to choose to either hide who they are or work. It has to do with choosing to be who you are or choosing work. You shouldn't have to chose. Would they force a devout Jewish person to work on the Sabbath? Would they make them chose between their religion and their work? |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Mar 18, 2011 21:12:05 GMT -5
He tells them he can't work Sundays, they are fine with that. Then they want him to work Sundays, he says no because he already explained to them he couldn't. They keep asking him to work Sundays and he refuses. Would him being fired after that just be a huge coincidence? No, they just claim they fired him for something else. Correlation doesn't equal causation. The law doesn't care about correlation, the law cares about causation. Causation has to be proved. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 18, 2011 21:24:28 GMT -5
He tells them he can't work Sundays, they are fine with that. Then they want him to work Sundays, he says no because he already explained to them he couldn't. They keep asking him to work Sundays and he refuses. Would him being fired after that just be a huge coincidence? No, they just claim they fired him for something else. Correlation doesn't equal causation. The law doesn't care about correlation, the law cares about causation. Causation has to be proved. How many times has "I didn't like the color of their eyes/tie/whatever" held up in court? |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Mar 18, 2011 21:33:41 GMT -5
No, they just claim they fired him for something else. Correlation doesn't equal causation. The law doesn't care about correlation, the law cares about causation. Causation has to be proved. How many times has "I didn't like the color of their eyes/tie/whatever" held up in court? I don't know that it's ever been challenged as it's completely legal. Legally you can fire someone because you don't like the color of their eyes. Legally they can quit because they don't like the color of the carpet. There's no contract there. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 18, 2011 21:35:46 GMT -5
How many times has "I didn't like the color of their eyes/tie/whatever" held up in court? I don't know that it's ever been challenged as it's completely legal. Legally you can fire someone because you don't like the color of their eyes. Legally they can quit because they don't like the color of the carpet. There's no contract there. I don't see how that's legal. There is a difference between a person quitting and being fired. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Mar 18, 2011 21:54:38 GMT -5
I don't know that it's ever been challenged as it's completely legal. Legally you can fire someone because you don't like the color of their eyes. Legally they can quit because they don't like the color of the carpet. There's no contract there. I don't see how that's legal. There is a difference between a person quitting and being fired. Some states you can contract employees and they're required to fulfill certain contracts obligations. One of them can be to work for you. If they get a better job offer, they can't quit and go elsewhere unless they fulfill the terms of the contract first. Equal Employment Opportunity says that you can't discriminate against someone based on age, gender, race, religion, sex, national origin or genetic information. It is completely legal to discriminate against someone for virtually any other reason. You can fire someone because you don't like their hair color, their tatoos, their piercings, their eye color, their height, the color of their socks, the model of their car, etc, etc..... Might make you a douche for doing so, but it's completely and totally legal. Someone might sue you, but they'll lose. |
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Post by slappy on Mar 18, 2011 22:08:00 GMT -5
Hair color, eye color, height are all genetic information.
And if you can prove that you had tattoos and piercings and that car when you were hired and they knew about them then they fired you for something else. Why else would they fire you for something you had when they hired you?
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Revvie®
Main Eventer
Somewhere between Reality, and the Absurd
Joined on: Jun 29, 2005 1:04:26 GMT -5
Posts: 4,327
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Post by Revvie® on Mar 18, 2011 23:13:39 GMT -5
Im sorry....first off I know for fact that "at will" work states are not immune to federal discrimination laws.
So someone please explain how this could play out in the employers favor. If he is terminated or harassed after making a formal confirmation that it was his understanding that he would not be working sundays. The employer can pick as they wish but if this ends up in front of a judge, he will be making the decision. I just dont see a judge(but it can happen) seeing the employers favor over canning someone based on "genetic" traits...only to have to explain the complaint by the employee..
hes been there for years...he has some tenure..and consistent sundays off...im just saying
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Post by John Zero on Mar 18, 2011 23:30:53 GMT -5
If they hired you knowing you couldn't work Sundays then they should stick to that.
The only thing that kind of bothers me is that a religion is being used to get that day off. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against anyone of any religion. I just find it unfair that because I don't go to church that I should have to work EVERY Sunday.
Years ago, I was in a group interview at a grocery store and two girls said they couldn't work Sundays, because of church. They were told they wouldn't be hired, because they had to make it fair for everyone.
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on Mar 18, 2011 23:34:59 GMT -5
Update:
So I go into work and my boss is giving me the coldest shoulder I've ever seen. We didn't share one word of conversation for the entire four hours we were there together. This was all her doing. The awkwardness, not speaking to me, it was all her. She was being so bitter towards me.
Then go to look at next week's Sunday slot and that my name is whited out. I guess she figured trying to fight me on the Sunday thing wasn't worth the hassle. Somehow, I don't think this is over though. Thanks guys. I really do appreciate all the advice.
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on Mar 18, 2011 23:41:25 GMT -5
If they hired you knowing you couldn't work Sundays then they should stick to that. The only thing that kind of bothers me is that a religion is being used to get that day off. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against anyone of any religion. I just find it unfair that because I don't go to church that I should have to work EVERY Sunday. Years ago, I was in a group interview at a grocery store and two girls said they couldn't work Sundays, because of church. They were told they wouldn't be hired, because they had to make it fair for everyone. Now I understand that. The thing is, when you're hiring individuals, you have to treat them as such. I understand how you wouldn't think it's fair, but answer this. How fair would it be to give me that particular day off for three and a half years, and then decide to attempt to take that away from me? You see, I HATE my job. I have to drive for about an hour just to get there, and I'm spending about 70$ a week in gas driving a Honda Civic. My relationship with God and my spirituality is the only thing that keeps from going in to that place on monday and telling the management staff to blow it out of their a**es. I'm not going to let them take that away from me. If working Sundays is a condition of employment, then fine. That's fair. But in my case, I don't think that I'm in the wrong, or getting preferential treatment. |
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Post by John Zero on Mar 19, 2011 0:26:22 GMT -5
If they hired you knowing you couldn't work Sundays then they should stick to that. The only thing that kind of bothers me is that a religion is being used to get that day off. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against anyone of any religion. I just find it unfair that because I don't go to church that I should have to work EVERY Sunday. Years ago, I was in a group interview at a grocery store and two girls said they couldn't work Sundays, because of church. They were told they wouldn't be hired, because they had to make it fair for everyone. Now I understand that. The thing is, when you're hiring individuals, you have to treat them as such. I understand how you wouldn't think it's fair, but answer this. How fair would it be to give me that particular day off for three and a half years, and then decide to attempt to take that away from me? You see, I HATE my job. I have to drive for about an hour just to get there, and I'm spending about 70$ a week in gas driving a Honda Civic. My relationship with God and my spirituality is the only thing that keeps from going in to that place on monday and telling the management staff to blow it out of their a**es. I'm not going to let them take that away from me. If working Sundays is a condition of employment, then fine. That's fair. But in my case, I don't think that I'm in the wrong, or getting preferential treatment. That I totally agree with. They hired you knowing that Sundays were a day you could not work, they need to stick with that. Is there anything involved with your promotion that requires open availability? |
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Post by Yeezy's Mullet: Team X Blades on Mar 19, 2011 0:51:23 GMT -5
Yes there was...BUT, we had come to an agreement upon receiving my promotion that I'd still get the Sundays off. They REALLY wanted to promote me, but I told them that I'd take it only if I got to have Sunday off. I'll work any shift, any other of the six weekdays. And I have work all shifts, and all other days, sometimes in a row. Just. Not. Sunday. That was agreed upon. I've been at my management position since October and hadn't had a problem with it until now.
Open availability WAS a condition of the promotion, until they told me that I wouldn't have to work on Sundays, even if I took the job.
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Post by Deep Figure Value on Mar 19, 2011 7:17:16 GMT -5
I take it from reading this far that you work in retail. If that's the case, then I'm willing to bet that the entire issue does not stem from your boss. Likely, if they have anything resembling a "full time commitment" in their company policy, then they're probably getting flack from minds higher than those in your store/location regarding the adherence to that policy - and if that's the case, then more than likely, someone complained.
We dealt with a similar situation before I stepped down from management in my store. We had an older gentlemen who was given full time status, signed the commitment, but still managed to get scheduled his regular M-F, 9-5 shift. He was dependable, he'd be doing it for years - it worked. But then someone filed a complaint. Felt that he was getting special treatment, and we had to go and switch it up, by rule of corporate.
Now - some states do have laws protecting "reasonable accommodations". My state is one, in which if anyone needs an accommodation for work regarding pertaining to their health or religion, a sheet must be kept on file, signed by the individual and their supervisor, with the accommodation clearly stated. We have them on file for anything from wearing sneakers due to pregnancy/foot issues to your very issue of days off to observe religiously.
That said, if you do have a "full time commitment", or anything resembling it, and you do not have the protection of a religious accommodation, you're kinda f*cked. The biggest thing to remember about employment, and employers will always be willing to remind you this when under the crunch in scheduling, or when leading you out the door, is that your employment is not a contract.
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I dont know good luck