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Post by ICW on Apr 29, 2011 21:01:54 GMT -5
Political scientist and author Charles Murray visited my university back in March to discuss an extremely controversial topic: are too many people going to college?
One of the first major points raised by Murray is the structure of college in it of itself. For instance, do colleges need to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on constructing libraries when most of the materials in libraries are available via the Internet?
In today's world, a book can be downloaded to a computer or an e-reader device within a matter of minutes. You would not have to leave the comfort of your dorm nor would you have to return the book. Hell, most universities have a book store of their own that sell the text books you need from class. I've noticed that students are now getting books for MUCH, MUCH cheaper on Amazon Prime.
Murray also argues that students are being forced to study material that have no relevance to their declared major and thus the students have little interest in the material. For example, why should a student majoring in Broadcast Journalism be forced to take a mathematics course?
Murray believes that students should only attend two years of college for whatever career they wish to peruse. The students should not be forced to take any distribution or humanities courses that have zero relevance to what they wish to peruse; to use an example by Murray, a person interested in the liberal arts should not be forced to take anything in mathematics or science. Of course if these students wish to expand their overall education, then they should be permitted to do so by their choice, not because the university forces them.
WF, what is your opinion? Especially for those of you who are in college (like myself). Do you feel Murray is correct and do you agree with his solution?
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Post by extreme on Apr 29, 2011 21:29:21 GMT -5
I wish schools would stop only getting funded for new buildings and construction but also get funded for more classes.
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hbkrules
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
Joined on: Jun 18, 2002 11:49:32 GMT -5
Posts: 2,115
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Post by hbkrules on Apr 29, 2011 21:29:48 GMT -5
Absolutely. Way too many students who simply can't/don't have the will to complete college are currently enrolled in school. They end up dropping out and owe a ton of money. They either slowly pay it back or the taxpayers have to foot the bill. Also with so many people in school the value of the college degree has become greatly reduced.
Trade schools where people actually learn to do/make something should become more prominent. I'm a recent college grad and my first who years were filled with classes that did not teach me anything that I will use in real life. Granted they made me a more well rounded educated person but considering that it took up two years of my life and 35k it was basically just fluff. All this liberal arts stuff is nice but in a competitive world like today I think people should be learning actual skills.
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Post by ~*Young $ Money*~ on Apr 29, 2011 21:33:44 GMT -5
I agree with the part about having to take classes that don't pertain to your major. I didn't attend college b/c well some of the reason was actually b/c i would have to take pointless classes i have no interest in and have nothing to do with my major. I also agree college degrees don't mean crap now a days.
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Post by King Silva on Apr 29, 2011 21:44:19 GMT -5
I wish I didn't have to take certain classes such as math classes but I think it is good to know stuff and isn't the reason so that people have a general education?
Although at the same time if you take a class you don't like chances are a lot of the stuff you learned will fade away.
All I know is that when I'm done with math I'm pretty much done with it.
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Post by extreme on Apr 29, 2011 21:51:38 GMT -5
I personally think we need general education classes.
ESPECIALLY math, science, and english. It doesn't matter what major you are. You should have general knowledge in those 3 areas.
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Post by ICW on Apr 29, 2011 21:58:33 GMT -5
I personally think we need general education classes. ESPECIALLY math, science, and english. It doesn't matter what major you are. You should have general knowledge in those 3 areas. What if you are a Broadcast Journalism major and happen to be especially horrific at math. In fact, even the most basic math class the university offers is troubling for you. Should you be FORCED to take that class when you a). hate the class, b). Genuinely have trouble with the class, c). It may never come up in the profession you wish to pursue.
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hbkrules
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
Joined on: Jun 18, 2002 11:49:32 GMT -5
Posts: 2,115
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Post by hbkrules on Apr 29, 2011 21:58:43 GMT -5
I personally think we need general education classes. ESPECIALLY math, science, and english. It doesn't matter what major you are. You should have general knowledge in those 3 areas. I agree but realistically by the time you are in college you have already learned math, science and english for the last 12 years. I think highschool should be about general education and college should be about preparing you for a job.
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Post by ß®å¢K$ßâ¢k on Apr 29, 2011 22:08:33 GMT -5
"The students should not be forced to take any distribution or humanities courses that have zero relevance to what they wish to peruse; to use an example by Murray, a person interested in the liberal arts should not be forced to take anything in mathematics or science."
There are many different kinds of Liberal Arts...I think math and science are essentials in LAs. I don't however agree with the science labs...But learning honestly never hurts anyone.
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Post by ICW on Apr 29, 2011 22:16:36 GMT -5
"The students should not be forced to take any distribution or humanities courses that have zero relevance to what they wish to peruse; to use an example by Murray, a person interested in the liberal arts should not be forced to take anything in mathematics or science." There are many different kinds of Liberal Arts...I think math and science are essentials in LAs. I don't however agree with the science labs...But l earning honestly never hurts anyone. Sure it can. If you're taking a class you do not want to take or simply do not UNDERSTAND the material being taught (and it has no relevance to your major), it could hurt you big time.
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Post by ß®å¢K$ßâ¢k on Apr 29, 2011 22:31:43 GMT -5
"The students should not be forced to take any distribution or humanities courses that have zero relevance to what they wish to peruse; to use an example by Murray, a person interested in the liberal arts should not be forced to take anything in mathematics or science." There are many different kinds of Liberal Arts...I think math and science are essentials in LAs. I don't however agree with the science labs...But l earning honestly never hurts anyone. Sure it can. If you're taking a class you do not want to take or simply do not UNDERSTAND the material being taught (and it has no relevance to your major), it could hurt you big time. Learning and understanding aren't the same thing. Sure, you learn to understand, but you don't have to understand to learn. Knowing never hurt. Even if you're not grasping the concept of something, the only thing that suffers is the grade. In which case, go for extra help. Learn it. Go above and beyond the subject.
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Post by ICW on Apr 29, 2011 22:36:26 GMT -5
Sure it can. If you're taking a class you do not want to take or simply do not UNDERSTAND the material being taught (and it has no relevance to your major), it could hurt you big time. Learning and understanding aren't the same thing. Sure, you learn to understand, but you don't have to understand to learn. Knowing never hurt. Even if you're not grasping the concept of something, the only thing that suffers is the grade. In which case, go for extra help. Learn it. Go above and beyond the subject. In this day in age, I think it's extremely rare for students to do that. It's sad but the truth.
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Post by extreme on Apr 29, 2011 23:08:21 GMT -5
I personally think we need general education classes. ESPECIALLY math, science, and english. It doesn't matter what major you are. You should have general knowledge in those 3 areas. I agree but realistically by the time you are in college you have already learned math, science and english for the last 12 years. I think highschool should be about general education and college should be about preparing you for a job. College is a place for new experiences. Statistically, a large majority of students change their majors within their college studies. Kids think they know exactly what they want coming into college but most of them don't. That's why I think it's important to have general education classes to have students explore where they really have passion for. Once they're through the first two years exploring, then they begin doing their upper division courses and if they want, go on to graduate school. I can honestly say, you're going to forget about 90% of what you learned in undergraduate college courses-- even ones pertaining to your major. It's all about experiences. That's what general education courses are all about.
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Post by J12 on Apr 30, 2011 14:32:38 GMT -5
I've never really been all that bothered by taking general education courses, but I could definitely see the argument against them.
What I don't agree with is when a school forces your into semesters worth of only general education courses until you've built up enough credibility to take a class in the subject your are studying.
I'm not talking about degree programs like nursing, in which you have to prove yourself in various science courses, pass some tests and then eventually be accepted into the program, but schools that flat out accept you into a program and then put off placing you in it.
I spent a semester at a school for graphic design, and didn't even take a single class that involved a computer. Needless to say, I left and went somewhere else.
I'm going to be a senior next year and I'm finished with my general education requirements, so it doesn't much effect me anymore.
The one thing I've often pondered, though, on the topic of too many people going to college, is what is going to happen with this "Generation Y", so to speak, when we're all in the work force? No generation will have had so many college graduates. Will a bachelor's degree become the new high school diploma? Will you need a graduate degree to have any success?
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Post by Edgeman05 on Apr 30, 2011 15:31:51 GMT -5
I agree 100% with Murrays thoughts in the main post. Part of the reason why I never chose to go to college was because I didn't want to have to Math and tons of other classes that I sucked at and that had no relation to what I wanted to do with my career.
I'd love if all schools were only 2 year degrees that focuses EXACTLY on what you want to do. So they don't waste your time and money.
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Post by extreme on Apr 30, 2011 15:35:09 GMT -5
you're going have to need math or english in whatever you do. It has less to do with your job and more to do with the real world.
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Post by 3Lephant (Naptown Icon) on Apr 30, 2011 15:52:11 GMT -5
If my school had rid itself of prerequisites that seem pointless, then I wouldn't have taken Sociology, which has quickly become my favorite subject/topic. They may seem pointless but in my opinion the extra classes help shape you.
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Post by Parchandri on Apr 30, 2011 22:29:55 GMT -5
Sadly college is just a business. All the irrelevant requirements are just huge dollar signs on their end.
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Post by Edgeman05 on May 1, 2011 0:36:41 GMT -5
you're going have to need math or english in whatever you do. It has less to do with your job and more to do with the real world. I'd say English and basic Math. In all my years working I have never found a moment where I needed to know 4a + 5ab divided by 16ac or any of that crap. Just basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.
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Post by extreme on May 1, 2011 1:11:03 GMT -5
you're going have to need math or english in whatever you do. It has less to do with your job and more to do with the real world. I'd say English and basic Math. In all my years working I have never found a moment where I needed to know 4a + 5ab divided by 16ac or any of that crap. Just basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. basic algebra is essential and is used for things outside of jobs. College general education requirements only require you to take up to college algebra. Anything above college algebra isn't considered as general education.
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