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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 27, 2011 15:33:01 GMT -5
Honestly, if you depend on Social Security as your sole source of income, you've been screwed for a while. It's a huge government Ponzi scheme. Sadly, lots of people have made poor decisions over the course of their lives and now do depend on the checks. Honestly, I really think this is pure fear mongering on Obama's part. I dont agree with what I marked in bold. Many people have not made poor decisions. I feel the people who depend on those checks are people who have not had much of a choice. I know a number of people who worked there whole life, and have nothing to show for it. By you saying the people who depend on those checks you are implying that those people had money/fortune to begin with. And that through poor decision making they lost what ever they had. So you don't think people who work their entire lives, but fail to save anything for retirement have not made a poor decision? |
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Post by Halloween King on Jul 27, 2011 15:48:09 GMT -5
I dont agree with what I marked in bold. Many people have not made poor decisions. I feel the people who depend on those checks are people who have not had much of a choice. I know a number of people who worked there whole life, and have nothing to show for it. By you saying the people who depend on those checks you are implying that those people had money/fortune to begin with. And that through poor decision making they lost what ever they had. So you don't think people who work their entire lives, but fail to save anything for retirement have not made a poor decision? No. Simply put it is easy to sit and judge people. You do not know how much they made at there jobs, what there expenses were, what emergencies they may have lived through. I'll give you an example, I know a person who worked, saved, and then they got cancer. And through treatments, medications, special needs, hospital bills they ended up having to sell there home, land, cars, jewlery, and still they ended up in debt. So now all they have is social security checks to be able to keep a roof over there head and a meal in there stomachs. How did that person make a poor decision? Or I know a man who worked all his life. No high paying jobs, just what ever he could find. Never owned anything, never a big spender. Luckily he is not ill. Now he is old and can not work. He didnt make any poor decisions. That social security check is what it is for ther person mentioned above and for many others, a way to keep a roof over head and way to get food. Now if by poor decisions you want to talk about a person who made 300k a year and spent all there money on gambling or other vices so now they are stuck on Social security. Then yes they made poor decisions. BUT STILL even if they made poor decisions who are you to judge them? I try to NEVER JUDGE a person unless I have been in there same situation. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 27, 2011 16:06:23 GMT -5
So you don't think people who work their entire lives, but fail to save anything for retirement have not made a poor decision? No. Simply put it is easy to sit and judge people. You do not know how much they made at there jobs, what there expenses were, what emergencies they may have lived through. The average person has ~$1,000,000 pass through their hands at over the course of their lifetime. I read a story not too long ago of a guy who worked as a parking lot attendant in NYC his whole career. He retired a millionaire just because he lived modestly and invested his money. He was married and raised a couple of kids along the way. No health insurance? So he didn't save a single penny his entire life? But that's not a poor decision? Failure to plan is a poor decision. Who am I to judge? Why not? If someone makes horrible decisions, I'll point them out. If I'm doing something stupid I expect the same treatment in return. By that logic you'd judge no one at all and that's perfectly fine if you want to live that way. I choose not to. |
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AONI
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Post by AONI on Jul 27, 2011 17:38:15 GMT -5
Who am I to judge? Why not? If someone makes horrible decisions, I'll point them out. If I'm doing something stupid I expect the same treatment in return. im all for personal responsibility and all that but people like you lose me with all this "higher than thou" rhetoric. you have no right to make judgements about anyone else's life besides yours, especially when that person is an absolute stranger. and no, letting people call you out does not give you the right to call out others its called ethics pal, learn a few |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 27, 2011 18:36:49 GMT -5
I've not met a doctor around here who is thrilled about Obamacare because it's going to seriously impact their bottom line. They will end up being required to treat people for very little profit who they normally would not have to treat. This. Personally I think we need to look at why healthcare is so expensive. Cut the costs of healthcare, then let people buy it or not. If they don't, they're SOL. This as well. I dont agree with what I marked in bold. Many people have not made poor decisions. I feel the people who depend on those checks are people who have not had much of a choice. I know a number of people who worked there whole life, and have nothing to show for it. By you saying the people who depend on those checks you are implying that those people had money/fortune to begin with. And that through poor decision making they lost what ever they had. You need to examine WHY they have "nothing to show." Not just say, "They have nothing to show." im all for personal responsibility and all that but people like you lose me with all this "higher than thou" rhetoric. you have no right to make judgements about anyone else's life besides yours, especially when that person is an absolute stranger. and no, letting people call you out does not give you the right to call out others its called ethics pal, learn a few It's not "higher than thou" rhetoric to say that someone made a bad decision. Certainly someone who doesn't have health insurance and can't afford to pay for treatment if they get sick is not making a GOOD decision... |
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Post by AONI on Jul 27, 2011 20:26:07 GMT -5
im all for personal responsibility and all that but people like you lose me with all this "higher than thou" rhetoric. you have no right to make judgements about anyone else's life besides yours, especially when that person is an absolute stranger. and no, letting people call you out does not give you the right to call out others its called ethics pal, learn a few It's not "higher than thou" rhetoric to say that someone made a bad decision. Certainly someone who doesn't have health insurance and can't afford to pay for treatment if they get sick is not making a GOOD decision... im responding to the sentiment that it is a horrible decision for someone to choose not to buy health insurance which denotes a lack of intelligence and laziness. you guys are making character judgments about a group of people you dont know and its outright prejudice. honestly, each side of this argument has been focusing on the absolute extreme of the opposition. people for healthcare say that we need to take care of those who truly cannot take care of themselves, even though id bet that not everyone of those 70 million checks go to those who cannot TRULY cannot provide for themselves. and then those against healthcare say that the system has been duped into paying for those who actually can pay for themselves, as if every one of those 70 million checks are going to crooks and liars. the reality is that neither side has provided any statistical evidence to provide any proof to their argument. all thats been offered is idealogical standings that have no facts to back them up. id bet that there is a lot more middle ground to this thing than either side is willing to admit. |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 27, 2011 21:55:08 GMT -5
What is this "group of people?" Dumb people?
Like I've said, I'm not on the extreme, I just think that the system is obviously mathematically flawed and needs to be eliminated and/or COMPLETELY revamped.
Yes, we do have statistical evidence. The evidence is that we cannot afford it. This information is readily available and not debatable.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 27, 2011 21:57:56 GMT -5
It's not "higher than thou" rhetoric to say that someone made a bad decision. Certainly someone who doesn't have health insurance and can't afford to pay for treatment if they get sick is not making a GOOD decision... im responding to the sentiment that it is a horrible decision for someone to choose not to buy health insurance which denotes a lack of intelligence and laziness. you guys are making character judgments about a group of people you dont know and its outright prejudice. No, I'm saying that if you choose to do something stupid over and over and over again, you're stupid. How can it be any other way? If I stuck my hand in a fire over and over and over again and kept burning myself over and over again, how would that not be stupid and how would that not reflect on my judgement? When you choose month after month after month to not buy health insurance, you're making a dumb decision over and over again. I don't think either Kliquid or I would have issues with taking care of those who truly cannot take care of themselves. I'm just saying that as it's structured, we can't pay for current system. Do you really want to haul out stats? 'cuz then it get's really, really boring and arcane. |
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Post by Halloween King on Jul 27, 2011 23:10:42 GMT -5
No. Simply put it is easy to sit and judge people. You do not know how much they made at there jobs, what there expenses were, what emergencies they may have lived through. The average person has ~$1,000,000 pass through their hands at over the course of their lifetime. I read a story not too long ago of a guy who worked as a parking lot attendant in NYC his whole career. He retired a millionaire just because he lived modestly and invested his money. He was married and raised a couple of kids along the way. No health insurance? So he didn't save a single penny his entire life? But that's not a poor decision? Failure to plan is a poor decision. Who am I to judge? Why not? If someone makes horrible decisions, I'll point them out. If I'm doing something stupid I expect the same treatment in return. By that logic you'd judge no one at all and that's perfectly fine if you want to live that way. I choose not to. By your logic EVERYTHING has a simple answer. So you arent superman why? Because you werent born on krypton. You arent a millionare because?  You dont work hard enough. It's like you put no thought what so ever into your responses. I agree with the other person....... you have a mightier than thou attitude. You stick with that attitude and see how far it gets you in life. |
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Post by AONI on Jul 27, 2011 23:22:30 GMT -5
What is this "group of people?" Dumb people? Like I've said, I'm not on the extreme, I just think that the system is obviously mathematically flawed and needs to be eliminated and/or COMPLETELY revamped. Yes, we do have statistical evidence. The evidence is that we cannot afford it. This information is readily available and not debatable. the group of people is the 70 million who would "lose" of their SS checks. and i am not questioning the outcome of the argument, just saying that it sounds like you guys are framing it incorrectly by splitting those 70 million people into the two categories of those who are either genuinely unable to provide for themselves and those who are legitimately duping the system. as for stats & evidence, i should clarify. youve basically stated that those who do not buy their health insurance out of incompetence do not deserve to get their health insurance paid by others. ultimately, as youve made clear, that fact alone should be the basis for the end/overhaul of SS. but out of the 70 million people, where is the statistical evidence that states these people did not buy health insurance because they willingly chose not to? i think that your assessment of the situation is flawed because youre painting that group with too broad of a brush and have no proof that the people who get those checks made no effort in their lives to get insurance. |
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Post by AONI on Jul 27, 2011 23:49:02 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that if you choose to do something stupid over and over and over again, you're stupid. How can it be any other way? If I stuck my hand in a fire over and over and over again and kept burning myself over and over again, how would that not be stupid and how would that not reflect on my judgement? When you choose month after month after month to not buy health insurance, you're making a dumb decision over and over again. so 70 million people are just dumb. youre really content with that answer? you dont know these people, you dont know their background or their responsibilities. ill admit that i do not either but the difference is that im not the one pretending like i do. i dont dispute that it cant be paid for but unless im mistaking you for someone else, ive repeatedly read statements in this thread concerning the character of those who receive SS. were they outright called crooks or liars? no, but they certainly were made out to be. lol, when youre makin an argument that a whole section of the government should be overhauled i think itd be smart to bring some facts with you. |
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2011 4:05:01 GMT -5
the group of people is the 70 million who would "lose" of their SS checks. and i am not questioning the outcome of the argument, just saying that it sounds like you guys are framing it incorrectly by splitting those 70 million people into the two categories of those who are either genuinely unable to provide for themselves and those who are legitimately duping the system. That's what social security was originally supposed to be. Either you could work or you couldn't work. as for stats & evidence, i should clarify. youve basically stated that those who do not buy their health insurance out of incompetence do not deserve to get their health insurance paid by others. ultimately, as youve made clear, that fact alone should be the basis for the end/overhaul of SS. but out of the 70 million people, where is the statistical evidence that states these people did not buy health insurance because they willingly chose not to? i think that your assessment of the situation is flawed because youre painting that group with too broad of a brush and have no proof that the people who get those checks made no effort in their lives to get insurance. If someone made an honest effort to get insurance, they'd have it. It's not that difficult. Like you said 70 million people... That's an unbelievable amount of people. It's pretty obvious that the majority of those people are abusing the system. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 8:51:16 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that if you choose to do something stupid over and over and over again, you're stupid. How can it be any other way? If I stuck my hand in a fire over and over and over again and kept burning myself over and over again, how would that not be stupid and how would that not reflect on my judgement? When you choose month after month after month to not buy health insurance, you're making a dumb decision over and over again. so 70 million people are just dumb. youre really content with that answer? you dont know these people, you dont know their background or their responsibilities. ill admit that i do not either but the difference is that im not the one pretending like i do. No, I think 70 million people (and I'm not sure if that number is correct either, but I'm assuming it is here) don't think about the future at all. That's why they do not save for retirement (I'll never be that old) and they don't buy health insurance (I'm not going to get sick). I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. How can you look at someone who keeps doing the same stupid thing over and over and over again and claim they're smart? I'm smart. That's why I keep placing bets on the Pirates to win the World Series. I've made the same bet for the past 20 years because I'm smart. Please point me to where I said that. Some of them are. A lot of them are people who just did the stupid thing of not planning at all. I feel no obligation to help those people. The facts/figures in the healthcare debate have been re-hashed over and over and over again by those far more intelligent than me. If you want to look at just cold hard numbers there are a lot of places on the web where you can do that. |
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Post by AONI on Jul 28, 2011 10:02:46 GMT -5
That's what social security was originally supposed to be. Either you could work or you couldn't work. no, benefits for the disabled didnt come until the 50s. when it started in the 30s, it was meant for the retired and the widowed and their children. you wouldnt say that it depends on the situation? say for instance, a widow who has 5 children and needs to feed, clothe, and house them on a minimum wage income. and let me clarify, not EVERY person receiving SS has this same situation, just bringing it up because the general sentiment among those against SS seem to be that a majority of people on SS cant hold down a job and therefore do not deserve any help. which would be false by the way really? you cant believe that in any way possible 20% of the population either cannot provide for themselves, need help providing for their children, or are retired? |
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Revvie®
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Post by Revvie® on Jul 28, 2011 10:15:10 GMT -5
Why is it a person has to be ignorant if they make mistakes in life and then spend the rest of it trying to fix it? Where are the ethics on the grounds that a human being is capable of fouling once in life( at the very least). Were all people and defined as such we are all creatures, that by mistakes, try to correct selves and try to make better wiser decisions when a similar situation. What if the mistake is not by them but their spouse, are they to divorce then due to their foul up? Then where is the line here.
I want to know where you have the RIGHT to state ignorance when a man is allowed a mistake in life. I am not denying that people are using the system, I am not even denying we cant pay for it. But it is due to mistakes by our government, not the people themselves in life that drove us to this point. I could say that because it didnt work the gov. should have known better already and just lame the blame on the few who truly failed up.
No one has the right to state any man ignorant for a mess up in life....
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Post by AONI on Jul 28, 2011 10:16:50 GMT -5
No, I think 70 million people (and I'm not sure if that number is correct either, but I'm assuming it is here) don't think about the future at all. That's why they do not save for retirement (I'll never be that old) and they don't buy health insurance (I'm not going to get sick). I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. How can you look at someone who keeps doing the same stupid thing over and over and over again and claim they're smart? I'm smart. That's why I keep placing bets on the Pirates to win the World Series. I've made the same bet for the past 20 years because I'm smart. im not asking for comments on their intelligence at all. smart or dumb, it has no place in the conversation. im not saying dont call them stupid because i think theyre smart. im saying dont call them stupid because you have no right to. if you dont KNOW somebody, you shouldnt be speaking like you do. right there dude, you came into the discussion with your opinions and portrayed them as if they were fact, not me. without evidence your opinions are fallacious and overreaching |
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Post by Halloween King on Jul 28, 2011 10:27:07 GMT -5
Really the only guarantees you can bet Obama will make is that he will F things up even worse. That and that nothing he promised during his campagin will be done.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 10:36:32 GMT -5
Why is it a person has to be ignorant if they make mistakes in life and then spend the rest of it trying to fix it? Where are the ethics on the grounds that a human being is capable of fouling once in life( at the very least). Were all people and defined as such we are all creatures, that by mistakes, try to correct selves and try to make better wiser decisions when a similar situation. What if the mistake is not by them but their spouse, are they to divorce then due to their foul up? Then where is the line here. Everyone makes mistakes. It's when you make the exact same mistake week after week after week and month after month after month (not saving for retirement or not buying healthcare) that makes you stupid. It's like the guy who is driving around a 20 year old beater car that hasn't had the oil changed since the Reagan administration and you can see it coming in a cloud of black smoke from a mile away. He goes out one day and the car won't start and he's shocked and surprised. How could he possibly have prepared for this? It's not his fault the car won't start. Umm, yes it is. He's driving a car that's on it's last legs. He needs to prepare for the fact that the car will die one day. You will be 55 one day and want/need to retire. You will get sick one day and want/need health insurance. If you just ignore that and don't plan for it, to me you're stupid and I have no sympathy for you. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying you don't have the right to make a mistake. I'm saying I should have the right to not pay for your mistake and I certainly should not have to pay for your mistake that you made every single month for 20+ years. You (generic you) failed to save a single penny for retirement. Now I have to pay for your mistake? WTF??? Not for a single mess up no. You lock your keys in your car once, it's a mistake. I'm not going to call you dumb for doing it. You lock your keys in your car EVERY SINGLE DAY for 20+ years I'm going to call you stupid. It's the same mistake, only you're making it every day. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 10:39:19 GMT -5
What is this "group of people?" Dumb people? Like I've said, I'm not on the extreme, I just think that the system is obviously mathematically flawed and needs to be eliminated and/or COMPLETELY revamped. Yes, we do have statistical evidence. The evidence is that we cannot afford it. This information is readily available and not debatable. the group of people is the 70 million who would "lose" of their SS checks. and i am not questioning the outcome of the argument, just saying that it sounds like you guys are framing it incorrectly by splitting those 70 million people into the two categories of those who are either genuinely unable to provide for themselves and those who are legitimately duping the system. What other categories are there? There are those who really truly cannot provide for themselves through no fault of their own. We agree on that. There are those who are completely duping the system. We agree on that as well. Besides these categories, what other categories are there? I'm at work and don't have the time to look up the stats. I will when I get home this evening. Your question is a very good one and there are stats out there for it. I just need to find them. |
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Revvie®
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Post by Revvie® on Jul 28, 2011 10:44:52 GMT -5
Why is it a person has to be ignorant if they make mistakes in life and then spend the rest of it trying to fix it? Where are the ethics on the grounds that a human being is capable of fouling once in life( at the very least). Were all people and defined as such we are all creatures, that by mistakes, try to correct selves and try to make better wiser decisions when a similar situation. What if the mistake is not by them but their spouse, are they to divorce then due to their foul up? Then where is the line here. Everyone makes mistakes. It's when you make the exact same mistake week after week after week and month after month after month (not saving for retirement or not buying healthcare) that makes you stupid. It's like the guy who is driving around a 20 year old beater car that hasn't had the oil changed since the Reagan administration and you can see it coming in a cloud of black smoke from a mile away. He goes out one day and the car won't start and he's shocked and surprised. How could he possibly have prepared for this? It's not his fault the car won't start. Umm, yes it is. He's driving a car that's on it's last legs. He needs to prepare for the fact that the car will die one day. You will be 55 one day and want/need to retire. You will get sick one day and want/need health insurance. If you just ignore that and don't plan for it, to me you're stupid and I have no sympathy for you. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying you don't have the right to make a mistake. I'm saying I should have the right to not pay for your mistake and I certainly should not have to pay for your mistake that you made every single month for 20+ years. You (generic you) failed to save a single penny for retirement. Now I have to pay for your mistake? WTF??? Not for a single mess up no. You lock your keys in your car once, it's a mistake. I'm not going to call you dumb for doing it. You lock your keys in your car EVERY SINGLE DAY for 20+ years I'm going to call you stupid. It's the same mistake, only you're making it every day. What about those that made ONE single BIG mistake that cost them. For instance, if a man did have insurance and found out he had cancer. It was HIS FIRST mistake but it was big enough to impact his entire life at age 19. You dont know that everyone was constantly making the same mistake over and over, week after week, it could have been once and could have fouled up the rest of their life. Your assumptions is what makes your problem for you. And furthermore, why shouldnt we help people. At what point in the history of this species are we going to stop being so selfish, while all the while trying to pretend to be great moral people. This idea that each for himself and to the best man the spoils, is selfish in itself and is a main problem with how we got ourselves into most of our situations as a nation. Greed is great....pleh. I dont deny we failed everyone as a country for how it was run but this ideal notion of yours that for each failure your foolish and we shouldnt help anyone because most are just ignorant is just wrong. |
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