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Post by slappy on Jul 28, 2011 19:09:14 GMT -5
Why do I have to pay extra sales tax to pay for a baseball stadium I will never use? Why would I pay taxes for schools I never use? You shouldn't have to. PRIVATIZE. I don't see people complaining about those things though. They don't mind or at least don't say anything about other services they pay for that they don't benefit from, it's mainly any medical stuff they bitch about.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 19:09:25 GMT -5
You can't not afford it. According to the stats in the article, half the people who don't have insurance actually can afford it, they just don't have it. Those 43% of the people are indeed getting healthcare that we pay for. That's the problem. Why should I have to pay for those who foolishly choose to not buy health insurance? Why do I have to pay extra sales tax to pay for a baseball stadium I will never use? Why would I pay taxes for schools I never use? In theory, you reap the wider economic benefits of having the stadium there and you reap the economic benefits of having an educated populace.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2011 19:14:44 GMT -5
a good reason not buy health insurance? either cant afford it or dont think you need it. LoL wait what? "Don't think you need it" is NOT a "good reason" to not buy health insurance.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2011 19:15:34 GMT -5
I don't see people complaining about those things though. They don't mind or at least don't say anything about other services they pay for that they don't benefit from, it's mainly any medical stuff they bitch about. Everyone picks their issues, you know? To me, I think it's all the same. You know how much I love sports, but I would never support public funding of a sports team unless the public got a direct percentage of the team's profits.
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Post by slappy on Jul 28, 2011 19:16:00 GMT -5
Why do I have to pay extra sales tax to pay for a baseball stadium I will never use? Why would I pay taxes for schools I never use? In theory, you reap the wider economic benefits of having the stadium there and you reap the economic benefits of having an educated populace. You don't reap benefits from giving people money to pay for their medicine/medical care so they live? You don't have more benefits from them getting their SS check so they can stay in their home and not being homeless?
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 20:25:12 GMT -5
In theory, you reap the wider economic benefits of having the stadium there and you reap the economic benefits of having an educated populace. You don't reap benefits from giving people money to pay for their medicine/medical care so they live? You don't have more benefits from them getting their SS check so they can stay in their home and not being homeless? No, I fail to see what benefits I reap there.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2011 20:31:58 GMT -5
I should stop paying my homeowners insurance and claim I "can't afford it." Then if my house burns down, I should proclaim that I couldn't help the situation and that everyone else should pay for my house and my damaged items.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 20:42:05 GMT -5
You should. It's not your fault you did something stupid and it's not ethical for me to refuse to pay for your new house.
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Post by slappy on Jul 28, 2011 20:52:53 GMT -5
You don't reap benefits from giving people money to pay for their medicine/medical care so they live? You don't have more benefits from them getting their SS check so they can stay in their home and not being homeless? No, I fail to see what benefits I reap there. You fail to see what benefits you get from having people still alive? You fail to see the benefits of keeping people in their homes? Let's foreclose on all the houses around yours and see how much more value your house loses.
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Post by slappy on Jul 28, 2011 20:53:55 GMT -5
I should stop paying my homeowners insurance and claim I "can't afford it." Then if my house burns down, I should proclaim that I couldn't help the situation and that everyone else should pay for my house and my damaged items. Why do you have a hard time understand that people aren't just saying they can't afford it? They really can't and yet you still harp on them like they are scum.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Jul 28, 2011 21:03:34 GMT -5
I should stop paying my homeowners insurance and claim I "can't afford it." Then if my house burns down, I should proclaim that I couldn't help the situation and that everyone else should pay for my house and my damaged items. Why do you have a hard time understand that people aren't just saying they can't afford it? They really can't and yet you still harp on them like they are scum. I just linked to the article. Nearly half of the uninsured are making 2.5 times or more the poverty line. These are people who can afford health insurance, but don't buy it.
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Post by slappy on Jul 28, 2011 21:27:53 GMT -5
Why do you have a hard time understand that people aren't just saying they can't afford it? They really can't and yet you still harp on them like they are scum. I just linked to the article. Nearly half of the uninsured are making 2.5 times or more the poverty line. These are people who can afford health insurance, but don't buy it. Oh, some article says it, that means you know exactly if they can truly afford it or not. You think because you have X amount of money you should be able to afford A, B and C. This is real life not some fantasy world where everyone can afford everything you think they should. Yes, there are some that choose not to buy it but that is not everyone.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2011 21:48:15 GMT -5
I know FOR A FACT that there are people who abuse the crapout of social security. I know them personally.
All you guys can come up with are these ridiculous fables of single mothers who have multiple children and their father died in some tragic way. This is not common whatsoever.
People put themselves in these bad situations. If you can find me a logical explanation of how people aren't responsible for the things that have happened to them, then fine, I will consider it. But we're getting to 10 pages in and no one has come up with a logical explanation aside from these sob stories of single mothers, which could arguably still afford health care anyway.
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Post by slappy on Jul 28, 2011 21:52:01 GMT -5
I know FOR A FACT that there are people who abuse the poop out of social security. I know them personally. All you guys can come up with are these ridiculous fables of single mothers who have multiple children and their father died in some tragic way. This is not common whatsoever. People put themselves in these bad situations. If you can find me a logical explanation of how people aren't responsible for the things that have happened to them, then fine, I will consider it. But we're getting to 10 pages in and no one has come up with a logical explanation aside from these sob stories of single mothers, which could arguably still afford health care anyway. I know that and you think everyone is abusing it except for the severely disabled. You know what is not common? Abuse of the system. We've gone 10 pages and we've found out that you have no idea what those people go through or you don't give a damn.
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AONI
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Joined on: Jul 8, 2008 22:10:17 GMT -5
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Post by AONI on Jul 28, 2011 22:05:48 GMT -5
a good reason not buy health insurance? either cant afford it or dont think you need it. people who make these decisions shouldnt get SS. but on the flip side of that, not everyone who makes those decisions get SS. You can't not afford it. According to the stats in the article, half the people who don't have insurance actually can afford it, they just don't have it. Those 43% of the people are indeed getting healthcare that we pay for. That's the problem. Why should I have to pay for those who foolishly choose to not buy health insurance? 43% is not half. thats my issue, you are seeing these numbers and interpreting them fallaciously. im not too familiar with Obamacare but did that bill make it law that EVERY person who doesnt have health insurance receives it?
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AONI
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Post by AONI on Jul 28, 2011 22:34:27 GMT -5
LoL wait what? "Don't think you need it" is NOT a "good reason" to not buy health insurance. according to you. but not everyone is you Kliquid. All you guys can come up with are these ridiculous fables of single mothers who have multiple children and their father died in some tragic way. This is not common whatsoever. neither is it common for people to blatantly lie about whether or not they can work. and that is not a ridiculous fable, from personal experience, these stories are very real and commonplace where i grew up. i can name at least 20 kids that are growing up in the same situation that i grew up in. its clear that all these 10 pages are is differences in ideology. you say it is illogical for anyone to help those in need because ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own lives. id agree, only in my opinion, just because its illogical doesnt mean its unethical. is it the smartest decision? no. is it the easiest decision? no. is it the right decision? personally, yes. if i can help, ill help. if i needed help, id hope that there were those out there willing to help me. does that mean that you have to believe as I do? no. but its the fact that youre asking...no, not even asking, more like me trying to demean me into believing as you do that I take issue with
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 28, 2011 23:03:47 GMT -5
I know that and you think everyone is abusing it except for the severely disabled. You know what is not common? Abuse of the system. We've gone 10 pages and we've found out that you have no idea what those people go through or you don't give a damn. You have absolutely no idea what experiences I have been through. I have lived in a home with one parent who struggled to make ends meet. I have been in a home where we didn't know what we were going to eat. I've been in a home where we didn't know whether Christmas was coming this year or not. I'm not some silver spoon rich kid who had it made. My parents taught me, at a very young age, that my life is ultimately made up from my decisions. They were both living under the poverty level separately while I was growing up. I went from house to house with the same situation. But my parents never said, "Well I can't help my situation. I'd be better off just taking money from other people and floating along aimlessly in life." My parents both have bettered their lives in different ways over time. My Mom worked two jobs AND went to school when I was a child. She did this so that she could afford to put a roof over our family's head, provide us with food and the necessities we needed. She took responsibility for her life. ... It's not that I "don't give a damn." It's that I do give a damn. I give a damn that we are fostering an environment for people to be lazy and not better themselves through their own hard work and determination. I give a damn that we let people who TRULY NEED THIS MONEY (the severely handicapped) get shafted so that Mr. Anderson down the street can collect money for free instead of getting a job. I give a damn that people who ARE hard-working Americans, like my Mom, got taxed on the little money she made so that other people could collect money for doing nothing. This isn't a communist society. We don't collect money together and split it out evenly. People need to work for what they want in a capitalistic society. If you don't want that, then leave and make your own country that is full of your ideas. I support you wholeheartedly and I hope that it works. But human nature dictates that people want to see the fruits of their labor. Thus, communism will never exist until it is forced upon the people by the threat of a gun. according to you. but not everyone is you Kliquid. Wait a second. This is just ridiculous. You're saying that someone "thinking they don't need health insurance" is a perfectly good reason as to why the rest of us should pay for it?I don't think I need a house. You should buy me one. I don't think I need a car. You should buy me one. Or two. I don't think I need food. You should provide me some. What kind of ridiculous theory is this? neither is it common for people to blatantly lie about whether or not they can work. Yes it is. and that is not a ridiculous fable, from personal experience, these stories are very real and commonplace where i grew up. i can name at least 20 kids that are growing up in the same situation that i grew up in. What situation? its clear that all these 10 pages are is differences in ideology. you say it is illogical for anyone to help those in need because ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own lives. No, I'm absolutely not saying that whatsoever. I'm saying that it's illogical to FORCE someone to take care of someone who CAN take care of themselves. This is not liberty. This is not freedom. It is literally stealing. Please make note of the distinction because it's a VERY big one. I support charities, I donate to numerous charities. I take care of my best friend who is handicapped. But do I think I should be forced to do those things? Absolutely not. id agree, only in my opinion, just because its illogical doesnt mean its unethical. is it the smartest decision? no. is it the easiest decision? no. is it the right decision? personally, yes. if i can help, ill help. if i needed help, id hope that there were those out there willing to help me. does that mean that you have to believe as I do? no. but its the fact that youre asking...no, not even asking, more like me trying to demean me into believing as you do that I take issue with I would probably help you, too. But the point is that saying, "You MUST give your money to this other person" is absurd.
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Post by slappy on Jul 29, 2011 0:11:33 GMT -5
I know that and you think everyone is abusing it except for the severely disabled. You know what is not common? Abuse of the system. We've gone 10 pages and we've found out that you have no idea what those people go through or you don't give a damn. You have absolutely no idea what experiences I have been through. I have lived in a home with one parent who struggled to make ends meet. I have been in a home where we didn't know what we were going to eat. I've been in a home where we didn't know whether Christmas was coming this year or not. I'm not some silver spoon rich kid who had it made. My parents taught me, at a very young age, that my life is ultimately made up from my decisions. They were both living under the poverty level separately while I was growing up. I went from house to house with the same situation. But my parents never said, "Well I can't help my situation. I'd be better off just taking money from other people and floating along aimlessly in life." My parents both have bettered their lives in different ways over time. My Mom worked two jobs AND went to school when I was a child. She did this so that she could afford to put a roof over our family's head, provide us with food and the necessities we needed. She took responsibility for her life. ... It's not that I "don't give a damn." It's that I do give a damn. I give a damn that we are fostering an environment for people to be lazy and not better themselves through their own hard work and determination. I give a damn that we let people who TRULY NEED THIS MONEY (the severely handicapped) get shafted so that Mr. Anderson down the street can collect money for free instead of getting a job. I give a damn that people who ARE hard-working Americans, like my Mom, got taxed on the little money she made so that other people could collect money for doing nothing. This isn't a communist society. We don't collect money together and split it out evenly. People need to work for what they want in a capitalistic society. If you don't want that, then leave and make your own country that is full of your ideas. I support you wholeheartedly and I hope that it works. But human nature dictates that people want to see the fruits of their labor. Thus, communism will never exist until it is forced upon the people by the threat of a gun. I was going to give you an example (sob story I guess you'd call it) but you wouldn't care. You'll never care. You see how people can be in dire situations but you fault them for it. If someone can't pull themselves up by their boot straps in a satisfactory, to you, amount of time then you look down on them. If they need help, you look down on them. You think everything, no matter what, is that person's fault. They are driving along and a car hits them? Their fault for driving. Their house burnt down? Their fault for owning a house. Someone breaks into the person's house and steals a bunch of their stuff? Their fault for having stuff people would want to steal.
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AONI
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Post by AONI on Jul 29, 2011 0:21:50 GMT -5
Wait a second. This is just ridiculous. You're saying that someone "thinking they don't need health insurance" is a perfectly good reason as to why the rest of us should pay for it?no, im saying if someone doesnt think they need health insurance they shouldnt be forced into buying it. i was asked to provide a reason why anyone wouldnt want health insurance, not a reason why someone should buy anothers. where is the proof? my moms a widow with 5 kids. the survivors benefit we got helped us significantly as far as rent is concerned. but some of the people i went to HS with went through the same thing. a few of my friends went through phases where the only meal they had was the lunch at school. other kids i know had to drop out of high school because they couldnt handle the struggle anymore. and id say out of the 40 guys i played football with, maybe 5 of them actually had both mom and dad at home. hell, most didnt even live with their parents. all im trying to say is that just because someone is struggling does not always mean they did so because essentially, they chose so although i do realize that San Francisco is an urban area and its more likely to happen here than say, in the suburbs. so i think it makes more sense to localize these programs so that the people who are giving out the money actually know where and to who that money is going to i agree. charity born out of coercion takes the goodwill out of the act and essentially changes it from charity to theft. id never support scraping SS because there are people who do NEED the checks, though i would support an option whether or not to pay that money out of your paycheck as well as a comprehensive background check as to who receives those checks. itd make things a lot harder, but like i said, the right decision aint always the easiest.
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Post by Kliquid on Jul 29, 2011 1:40:02 GMT -5
I was going to give you an example (sob story I guess you'd call it) but you wouldn't care. You'll never care. You see how people can be in dire situations but you fault them for it. If someone can't pull themselves up by their boot straps in a satisfactory, to you, amount of time then you look down on them. If they need help, you look down on them. You think everything, no matter what, is that person's fault. They are driving along and a car hits them? Their fault for driving. Their house burnt down? Their fault for owning a house. Someone breaks into the person's house and steals a bunch of their stuff? Their fault for having stuff people would want to steal. LoL, no. The things you're talking about are random chance. Getting hit by someone else's car is not the victim's fault, nor have Hulk or I portrayed it in that way at any point. Getting drunk and driving into someone? Definitely that person's fault. Intentionally setting their house on fight? That person's fault. However...We're not talking about random acts of chance. People need to understand that those things happen. Your examples are completely irrelevant because we're not talking about the incident itself, we're talking about basic planning for things of that nature. If a person is driving a car, they should have car insurance. If they don't, then no, I don't feel bad for them. If they own a house, they should have homeowners' insurance. Again, if they don't, I don't feel bad for them. Do I feel bad that they got hit by a car or that their house burned down? Yes. But do I feel bad that they decided to be an idiot and not insure their possessions and their health? No. That's a illegal act, first of all, and secondly, it's idiotic. It's not a matter of ignorance, either. Everyone knows they should have homeowners and car insurance. If someone doesn't have those things, they are making a conscious effort NOT to have them. THAT is something I do not feel bad for them about. Now I know what you're thinking - "What if they can't afford those insurances?" Well then don't own the ing item... I can't afford insurance on a brand new Escalade, so guess what - I don't own a brand new Escalade. Again, personal responsibility.
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