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Post by MKSavage on Jul 24, 2021 1:09:31 GMT -5
Rumor is, he was supposed to be in the final 4 with HBK, Nash, and Davey. But earlier in the match he was thrown over the top rope and lost his grip and hit the floor. I remember Austin mentioning something about this, apparently a number of guys had too much body oil/baby oil on and it got on the ropes and Austin lost his grip because of it. Really? That’s pretty interesting. I’m so used to his brawling style, that I forgot how good he was in his early run. Yeah, he was actually a very good wrestler, go back and watch some of his 1992-1994 Stunning Steve Austin matches. A tremendous talent. I believe it has been said that after the neck incident Austin had to tame his wrestling style down because he couldn't do all of the bumps and high spots like he used to, that's really when he become more of a brawler. Anyway, I couldn't find the video of him talking about it but here is an article of him talking about it: prowrestlingstories.com/pro-wrestling-stories/steve-austin-eliminated-royal-rumble/"We were at the Royal Rumble, I think it was the second Rumble I was ever in, it might have been my first, as a matter of fact, and I was supposed to be finishing fourth in the match. So, your first year in the company, and you’re gonna be the fourth-to-last guy left in the ring, that’s a pretty good rub. You’ve weathered the storm from thirty WWF superstars, and now you’re number four and going down to three, two, one, whoever wins that gets the big push."So anyway, I was doing a spot with, I believe it was Fatu, I can’t remember, one of the Samoans… And man, he had a lot of baby oil on. All the guys were oiled up, and so the ropes were very slippery.Austin continued, “I was going to do a deal where he does something to me, and I was going to take a bump over the top, hang onto the top rope, come back in the bottom — well, zip zip, boom, I lost my grip, fell out on my keister down by the guardrail and I was thinking, ‘Oh man, I’m the new guy in the company, they’re trying to give me a little bit of a push here by letting me be the fourth-to-last guy in the damn squared circle with three other badass superstars, and I blow it. Really!?’"Stone Cold continues to explain how this affected the other superstars in the ring."So I’m sitting there out on my ass [outside the ring on the floor], and Shawn [Michaels], I believe Shawn was going over (planned to win) in that Royal Rumble, or he was an integral part of the finish, so you know, what I’ve gotta do is… This is live. This is at the San Diego Sports Arena, 20,000 people there, it’s on pay-per-view. I gotta let [Shawn] know, ‘Dude, everything that I had to do to help you with the finish of the match… I’m gone!’“So anyway, I’m sitting down on my ass and Shawn Michaels, one of the great in-ring performers in the history of the business — he can make chicken salad out of anything — as I’m on the floor, I get up, and I make eye contact with Shawn. I just kind of held up my hands, I mean in a kayfabe style, not just saying, ‘Hey, I got dumped on my ass, here’s the signal, you must do something and overcome this tragedy!’… I just gave him the visual cue like, ‘Dude, I’m out, I screwed up.’“I don’t know how Shawn fixed that, but sometimes things happen that you can’t control and the rest of the guys just gotta go on the fly, and that’s when one guy will step up, and he’ll be that ring general and come up with a general plan that’s copacetic."While it all turned out well in the end for that match and Steve, he was never a fan of The Ringmaster gimmick. Here is a video of Austin being eliminated, at the :38 second mark in the video you can see him look at Shawn and make a signal to HBK. streamable.com/h2qmc
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Post by Stuart? on Jul 24, 2021 3:08:28 GMT -5
Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Mysterio - Steel Cage Match on SmackDown
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
Posts: 2,240
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 24, 2021 15:49:44 GMT -5
Really? That’s pretty interesting. I’m so used to his brawling style, that I forgot how good he was in his early run. Yeah, he was actually a very good wrestler, go back and watch some of his 1992-1994 Stunning Steve Austin matches. A tremendous talent. I believe it has been said that after the neck incident Austin had to tame his wrestling style down because he couldn't do all of the bumps and high spots like he used to, that's really when he become more of a brawler. Anyway, I couldn't find the video of him talking about it but here is an article of him talking about it: prowrestlingstories.com/pro-wrestling-stories/steve-austin-eliminated-royal-rumble/"We were at the Royal Rumble, I think it was the second Rumble I was ever in, it might have been my first, as a matter of fact, and I was supposed to be finishing fourth in the match. So, your first year in the company, and you’re gonna be the fourth-to-last guy left in the ring, that’s a pretty good rub. You’ve weathered the storm from thirty WWF superstars, and now you’re number four and going down to three, two, one, whoever wins that gets the big push."So anyway, I was doing a spot with, I believe it was Fatu, I can’t remember, one of the Samoans… And man, he had a lot of baby oil on. All the guys were oiled up, and so the ropes were very slippery.Austin continued, “I was going to do a deal where he does something to me, and I was going to take a bump over the top, hang onto the top rope, come back in the bottom — well, zip zip, boom, I lost my grip, fell out on my keister down by the guardrail and I was thinking, ‘Oh man, I’m the new guy in the company, they’re trying to give me a little bit of a push here by letting me be the fourth-to-last guy in the damn squared circle with three other badass superstars, and I blow it. Really!?’"Stone Cold continues to explain how this affected the other superstars in the ring."So I’m sitting there out on my ass [outside the ring on the floor], and Shawn [Michaels], I believe Shawn was going over (planned to win) in that Royal Rumble, or he was an integral part of the finish, so you know, what I’ve gotta do is… This is live. This is at the San Diego Sports Arena, 20,000 people there, it’s on pay-per-view. I gotta let [Shawn] know, ‘Dude, everything that I had to do to help you with the finish of the match… I’m gone!’“So anyway, I’m sitting down on my ass and Shawn Michaels, one of the great in-ring performers in the history of the business — he can make chicken salad out of anything — as I’m on the floor, I get up, and I make eye contact with Shawn. I just kind of held up my hands, I mean in a kayfabe style, not just saying, ‘Hey, I got dumped on my ass, here’s the signal, you must do something and overcome this tragedy!’… I just gave him the visual cue like, ‘Dude, I’m out, I screwed up.’“I don’t know how Shawn fixed that, but sometimes things happen that you can’t control and the rest of the guys just gotta go on the fly, and that’s when one guy will step up, and he’ll be that ring general and come up with a general plan that’s copacetic."While it all turned out well in the end for that match and Steve, he was never a fan of The Ringmaster gimmick. Here is a video of Austin being eliminated, at the :38 second mark in the video you can see him look at Shawn and make a signal to HBK. streamable.com/h2qmcWhat a great read thanks for sharing. The region of the uk I lived in never got WCW but would watch it on holiday at my Granny’s. Caught some of the Hollywood Blondes but will definitely check out some of his stuff from that period. Any specific recommendations?
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Post by The Brain on Jul 24, 2021 15:53:40 GMT -5
nibs92 vs Muta Spring Stampede 94,Dustin at Starrcade 93 and Dragon at BATB 94 (we watch this tonight, feel free to join!) immediately come to mind
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
Posts: 2,240
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 24, 2021 16:42:56 GMT -5
nibs92 vs Muta Spring Stampede 94,Dustin at Starrcade 93 and Dragon at BATB 94 (we watch this tonight, feel free to join!) immediately come to mind Ha ha I read that as nibs89 vs Muta, now that would be some match!! Thanks for the recommendations, working my way through 96 but will plan a breakout session and check those ones out. Will feedback here when I watch them.
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Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Jul 24, 2021 20:00:28 GMT -5
Yeah, he was actually a very good wrestler, go back and watch some of his 1992-1994 Stunning Steve Austin matches. A tremendous talent. I believe it has been said that after the neck incident Austin had to tame his wrestling style down because he couldn't do all of the bumps and high spots like he used to, that's really when he become more of a brawler. Anyway, I couldn't find the video of him talking about it but here is an article of him talking about it: prowrestlingstories.com/pro-wrestling-stories/steve-austin-eliminated-royal-rumble/"We were at the Royal Rumble, I think it was the second Rumble I was ever in, it might have been my first, as a matter of fact, and I was supposed to be finishing fourth in the match. So, your first year in the company, and you’re gonna be the fourth-to-last guy left in the ring, that’s a pretty good rub. You’ve weathered the storm from thirty WWF superstars, and now you’re number four and going down to three, two, one, whoever wins that gets the big push."So anyway, I was doing a spot with, I believe it was Fatu, I can’t remember, one of the Samoans… And man, he had a lot of baby oil on. All the guys were oiled up, and so the ropes were very slippery.Austin continued, “I was going to do a deal where he does something to me, and I was going to take a bump over the top, hang onto the top rope, come back in the bottom — well, zip zip, boom, I lost my grip, fell out on my keister down by the guardrail and I was thinking, ‘Oh man, I’m the new guy in the company, they’re trying to give me a little bit of a push here by letting me be the fourth-to-last guy in the damn squared circle with three other badass superstars, and I blow it. Really!?’"Stone Cold continues to explain how this affected the other superstars in the ring."So I’m sitting there out on my ass [outside the ring on the floor], and Shawn [Michaels], I believe Shawn was going over (planned to win) in that Royal Rumble, or he was an integral part of the finish, so you know, what I’ve gotta do is… This is live. This is at the San Diego Sports Arena, 20,000 people there, it’s on pay-per-view. I gotta let [Shawn] know, ‘Dude, everything that I had to do to help you with the finish of the match… I’m gone!’“So anyway, I’m sitting down on my ass and Shawn Michaels, one of the great in-ring performers in the history of the business — he can make chicken salad out of anything — as I’m on the floor, I get up, and I make eye contact with Shawn. I just kind of held up my hands, I mean in a kayfabe style, not just saying, ‘Hey, I got dumped on my ass, here’s the signal, you must do something and overcome this tragedy!’… I just gave him the visual cue like, ‘Dude, I’m out, I screwed up.’“I don’t know how Shawn fixed that, but sometimes things happen that you can’t control and the rest of the guys just gotta go on the fly, and that’s when one guy will step up, and he’ll be that ring general and come up with a general plan that’s copacetic."While it all turned out well in the end for that match and Steve, he was never a fan of The Ringmaster gimmick. Here is a video of Austin being eliminated, at the :38 second mark in the video you can see him look at Shawn and make a signal to HBK. streamable.com/h2qmcWhat a great read thanks for sharing. The region of the uk I lived in never got WCW but would watch it on holiday at my Granny’s. Caught some of the Hollywood Blondes but will definitely check out some of his stuff from that period. Any specific recommendations? There’s a really good Hollywood Blondes vs. Arn Anderson and Ric Flair match from Clash of the Champions 23
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
Posts: 2,240
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 25, 2021 3:33:25 GMT -5
What a great read thanks for sharing. The region of the uk I lived in never got WCW but would watch it on holiday at my Granny’s. Caught some of the Hollywood Blondes but will definitely check out some of his stuff from that period. Any specific recommendations? There’s a really good Hollywood Blondes vs. Arn Anderson and Ric Flair match from Clash of the Champions 23 I’ll check that out as well, thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by MKSavage on Jul 25, 2021 4:02:20 GMT -5
Yeah, he was actually a very good wrestler, go back and watch some of his 1992-1994 Stunning Steve Austin matches. A tremendous talent. I believe it has been said that after the neck incident Austin had to tame his wrestling style down because he couldn't do all of the bumps and high spots like he used to, that's really when he become more of a brawler. Anyway, I couldn't find the video of him talking about it but here is an article of him talking about it: prowrestlingstories.com/pro-wrestling-stories/steve-austin-eliminated-royal-rumble/ Here is a video of Austin being eliminated, at the :38 second mark in the video you can see him look at Shawn and make a signal to HBK. streamable.com/h2qmcWhat a great read thanks for sharing. The region of the uk I lived in never got WCW but would watch it on holiday at my Granny’s. Caught some of the Hollywood Blondes but will definitely check out some of his stuff from that period. Any specific recommendations? The ones that The Brain and TheSystem 1.5 mentioned are great choices. I would also add these: vs. Dustin Rhodes - Halloween Havoc 91 w/ Rick Rude vs Sting and Ricky Steamboat - Clash of Champions 18 Dangerous Alliance vs Sting's Squadron - Wrestle War 1992 War Games Match w/ Rick Rude vs Dustin Rhodes & Barry Windham - Great American Bash 1992 vs. Ricky Steamboat - Clash of Champions 20
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Ohtimate Wahriah
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
Joined on: Jul 1, 2008 12:35:07 GMT -5
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Jul 25, 2021 4:15:42 GMT -5
Jeff Jarrett vs HBK (In Your House 2)
I was listening Jeff Jarretts podcast (that’s J E double F) and he mentioned how he and Road Dogg were supposed to turn on each other after the Jarrett/ HBK match at In Your House 2 but instead they walked out and quit. It’s a damn shame they did that because the entire PPV was centered around Jarrett singing With My Baby Tonight, which is one of those things in wrestling that is pure magic haha, I love that song and what a great way to present Jarrett here. After the match they cut to Michael Hayes in the back who talks up how Road Dogg turned on Jarrett backstage to cover for the fact that it didn’t happen in the ring. Very interesting stuff here with the context behind it.
But anyway, I was watching Jarrett vs Michaels from IYH 2 and that’s a hidden gem of a match, definitely one of Jarretts best, possibly one of Michaels as well but he’s had so many it’s hard to keep count haha. Very underrated match, it’s really a damn shame they walked out after this match, this whole show presented Jarrett perfect but at the same time, I don’t understand the reasoning behind splitting up Jarrett & Road Dogg on this PPV when it was such a great build to eventually splitting them up due to Jeff using Road Dogg voice to sing With My Baby Tonight. I gotta agree with Jarrett here that this had more mileage on it and definitely wasn’t the time to split them.
Honorable mention to Road Dogg singing voice as well, that song is remarkably well done haha. 🎶Spend my day working hard on the go But the hands on the clock keep spinning too slow🎶
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Post by The Brain on Jul 25, 2021 20:21:49 GMT -5
Dug out a random WWF All American episode circa April 1990 today
Wrestling on at noon. Good times.
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Post by The Brain on Jul 26, 2021 12:42:30 GMT -5
Midnight Rockers vs Nasties for the belts- AWA on ESPN 3-5-88.Great stuff here humanoids. Definitely check it out!
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
Posts: 2,240
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 27, 2021 2:43:52 GMT -5
Just finished WrestleMania XII. I remember from previous discussions on here that there is split opinion on the Iron Man match. I personally think it’s a well put together match. I did think the overtime win wasn’t the greatest but still delivered.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
Joined on: Jul 1, 2008 12:35:07 GMT -5
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Jul 27, 2021 4:02:01 GMT -5
Just finished WrestleMania XII. I remember from previous discussions on here that there is split opinion on the Iron Man match. I personally think it’s a well put together match. I did think the overtime win wasn’t the greatest but still delivered. I personally like that match as well as that entire WrestleMania, as a first time watch through I think it’s perfectly fine because you don’t know the results until you watch it…. Where I think the Iron Man match becomes a difficult watch for somebody is when you say, you can sit here for 60 minutes and see no winner, or you can watch the match restart and see a winner in 30 seconds haha. By restarting the match I think it gave you a long version and an abbreviated version of the Iron Man match but I enjoy the art of the match, it’s a great match and an intriguing one as my mind always goes back to, what exactly do they do for 1 hour to fill that time?
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Post by MKSavage on Jul 27, 2021 4:44:50 GMT -5
Just finished WrestleMania XII. I remember from previous discussions on here that there is split opinion on the Iron Man match. I personally think it’s a well put together match. I did think the overtime win wasn’t the greatest but still delivered. I always liked the match. But then again, I am a big fan of Bret and Shawn. To me, your not gonna find two many guys who consistently put on great matches PPV after PPV like these guys did. I think the thing that people don't like about the match is that their was only one fall. Usually iron man matches have 3 plus. That usually helps break up the monotony of a long match. I've also heard a lot of people say that they went to the rest holds too much, but I recently watched the Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat 2 out of 3 falls match that went 55 minutes, and it seemed like they went to the rest holds just as much as Bret and Shawn did. The other thing about this PPV that I don't understand is people really hating the Ultimate Warrior / HHH match. I hear people say it was too short and it hurt Hunter. But, I think it was the best way to bring Warrior back and make him look strong. And, it really didn't hurt HHH that much, if at all (the curtain call probably hurt him more than this match ever could). And why do people get bent out of shape, or act surprised that Warrior no-sold the pedigree? Did they not watch Warrior during his previous runs with the WWF, he, like Hogan, always kicked out of peoples finishes - it kind of was his thing/gimmick. Seems odd.
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 27, 2021 5:10:01 GMT -5
Just finished WrestleMania XII. I remember from previous discussions on here that there is split opinion on the Iron Man match. I personally think it’s a well put together match. I did think the overtime win wasn’t the greatest but still delivered. I always liked the match. But then again, I am a big fan of Bret and Shawn. To me, your not gonna find two many guys who consistently put on great matches PPV after PPV like these guys did. I think the thing that people don't like about the match is that their was only one fall. Usually iron man matches have 3 plus. That usually helps break up the monotony of a long match. I've also heard a lot of people say that they went to the rest holds too much, but I recently watched the Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat 2 out of 3 falls match that went 55 minutes, and it seemed like they went to the rest holds just as much as Bret and Shawn did. The other thing about this PPV that I don't understand is people really hating the Ultimate Warrior / HHH match. I hear people say it was too short and it hurt Hunter. But, I think it was the best way to bring Warrior back and make him look strong. And, it really didn't hurt HHH that much, if at all (the curtain call probably hurt him more than this match ever could). And why do people get bent out of shape, or act surprised that Warrior no-sold the pedigree? Did they not watch Warrior during his previous runs with the WWF, he, like Hogan, always kicked out of peoples finishes - it kind of was his thing/gimmick. Seems odd. Addressing the whole one fall aspect. To me it fit. The idea being that you couldn’t split them at the time. Also both were difficult to beat. By having 1+ fall apiece, it conveys that both can be beaten if they went the pinball/submission route and it would cheapen the match if you brought in countout s and dq’s. I’m watching WWF 96 just now and in the lead up to the match Bret was saying that he was the mat technician and Shawn was more high flying, Lucia Libre style, implying that Bret’s “superiority” would be the difference maker in the match. Fast forward to the match, they told a fantastic story in that Shawn could hang with the best technician in wrestling at the time (or at least one of the best). A nicely executed, subtle piece of story telling there. My only problem was with the overtime, but I guess how else could you do it? If Shawn couldn’t do it in the hour, it would be unbelievable that he wins the belt in a ten minute raw rematch or at the next PPV (not to mention denying HBK his WM moment). As for Warrior v HHH. I’m thankful it was a short match. If they’d been competitive, Warrior would have to sell and would have taken away from his return. I wonder if the people who complain are the same that complain about Goldberg being in long matches in his first WWF run? In 96, Hunter was one of a select few that had faced Warrior at the biggest event in the calendar, along with names like Savage and Hogan - not a bad club to be in. If Triple H had lost in that fashion to Duke Drose or Henry Godwinn then it’s career over. The focus was on the Warriors return, not the match. And after, Hunter got in to a scrap with the debuting Mero, so the dust wasn’t settling on him. Don’t think any damage was likely to be done.
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nibs92
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 29, 2008 5:47:21 GMT -5
Posts: 2,240
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 27, 2021 5:13:48 GMT -5
Just finished WrestleMania XII. I remember from previous discussions on here that there is split opinion on the Iron Man match. I personally think it’s a well put together match. I did think the overtime win wasn’t the greatest but still delivered. I personally like that match as well as that entire WrestleMania, as a first time watch through I think it’s perfectly fine because you don’t know the results until you watch it…. Where I think the Iron Man match becomes a difficult watch for somebody is when you say, you can sit here for 60 minutes and see no winner, or you can watch the match restart and see a winner in 30 seconds haha. By restarting the match I think it gave you a long version and an abbreviated version of the Iron Man match but I enjoy the art of the match, it’s a great match and an intriguing one as my mind always goes back to, what exactly do they do for 1 hour to fill that time? I’d been watching WWF for 4 years at that point and was a pretty unique match concept - I can’t recall that there had been an iron man match in the promotion before. Especially in the New Generation.
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Ohtimate Wahriah
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WF 10 Year Member
Joined on: Jul 1, 2008 12:35:07 GMT -5
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Post by Ohtimate Wahriah on Jul 27, 2021 7:23:30 GMT -5
Just finished WrestleMania XII. I remember from previous discussions on here that there is split opinion on the Iron Man match. I personally think it’s a well put together match. I did think the overtime win wasn’t the greatest but still delivered. I always liked the match. But then again, I am a big fan of Bret and Shawn. To me, your not gonna find two many guys who consistently put on great matches PPV after PPV like these guys did. I think the thing that people don't like about the match is that their was only one fall. Usually iron man matches have 3 plus. That usually helps break up the monotony of a long match. I've also heard a lot of people say that they went to the rest holds too much, but I recently watched the Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat 2 out of 3 falls match that went 55 minutes, and it seemed like they went to the rest holds just as much as Bret and Shawn did. The other thing about this PPV that I don't understand is people really hating the Ultimate Warrior / HHH match. I hear people say it was too short and it hurt Hunter. But, I think it was the best way to bring Warrior back and make him look strong. And, it really didn't hurt HHH that much, if at all (the curtain call probably hurt him more than this match ever could). And why do people get bent out of shape, or act surprised that Warrior no-sold the pedigree? Did they not watch Warrior during his previous runs with the WWF, he, like Hogan, always kicked out of peoples finishes - it kind of was his thing/gimmick. Seems odd. The Warrior stuff is people looking back on something and not experiencing it in its proper time. At that time, Warrior was still regarded as one of the all time great characters in wrestling. We didn’t have many VHS tapes as kids, no internet, the very thought that we can see him again was as intriguing as it gets. I don’t think unless you lived in the internet-less times you can fully understand that a lot of the time, the only way you’d experience something again was to see it new again. You couldn’t just YouTube an old Warrior match, you had to see a new Warrior match. It’s hard to explain. Yes there was VHS tapes but I don’t think all of us as kids had a library of them at our fingertips like we do today. I didn’t even have a VHS player until the mid 90’s. Because of that though, guys like Warrior had almost become mythical in your mind. Wrestling wasn’t anywhere near as popular as it was with guys like Hogan, Savage and Warrior so those guys were held in a legendary regard. Second thing, HHH was nowhere even near Warriors level at that time. Looking back, people think Warrior squashed him, look at what he became. Hunter was a glorified jobber and in no way was built to that point to be able to contest with a current world champion or a former world champion and at that, somebody at the level Warrior had achieved. Whatever it is people feel Warrior should have done for him, I promise you, watching that live, Hunter getting Warrior into the pedigree right off the start achieved whatever that match could have. It presented that momentary doubt that Wow, maybe he doesn’t have it anymore. Like Savage said, Warrior no selling it did nothing to hurt Hunter, Warrior no sold a lot. That spoke to the character he was, not a slight on Hunters character. HHH had a 0% chance of winning that match. Plus, immediately following the match they stuck HHH into a feud with somebody more his speed so it was immediately forgotten. That match came off like John Doe getting into the octagon and challenging Anderson Silva. He got destroyed and went back to his rank. Obviously it didn’t hurt Hunter because he went on to achieve success anyway. Also, WWF was in a war with WCW. It’s not like today where you can afford to build stars so deliberately off the backs of the old stars. Vince needed guys like Warrior at that time to pull in a rating. They didn’t have the luxury of training people how to shoot, they just needed their best shooters and guns up front shooting.
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Post by The Brain on Jul 27, 2021 13:54:29 GMT -5
Not my fav iron man(that goes to Rude/Dragon) but I still liked this one.Like others I wasnt thrilled with the OT finish but overall they told a good story in there.
I also like the fact how this event was the catalyst for Bret turning heel a year later.
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Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Jul 27, 2021 14:28:25 GMT -5
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Post by The Brain on Jul 27, 2021 14:41:55 GMT -5
My AWA kick continues! Rockers vs Bad Company- AWA on ESPN 3-26-88. Little preview of what they would do in the WWF just a few years later.
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