jakksking1
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Joined on: Feb 2, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
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Post by jakksking1 on Feb 3, 2012 10:54:48 GMT -5
Regarding the HOF: Just because crappy wrestlers are in doesn't justify other wrestlers going in, in my opinion. I think the Hall should be reserved for the very best in the industry. The Koko B Ware argument is flawed. You can use that for virtually any wrestler who had mild success in the WWE.
I clearly did not deny he was great in the ring or on the mic, I was a fan. But, my argument is that he was severly overhyped after his death, to which you basically agreed. Perhaps he should have won the title in 1994, thats another argument. But he was in the WWF another 5 years and never really shined like he did vs. Bret.
Let me pose a hypo to you. If Owen walked into the Kemper Arena at Over the Edge and told Vince he was retiring, and never had anything to do with wrestling again, are we having any conversation about Owen in the Hall of Fame, or being a legend in the sport?
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Post by punksnotdead on Feb 3, 2012 12:31:41 GMT -5
Regarding the HOF: Just because crappy wrestlers are in doesn't justify other wrestlers going in, in my opinion. I think the Hall should be reserved for the very best in the industry. The Koko B Ware argument is flawed. You can use that for virtually any wrestler who had mild success in the WWE. I clearly did not deny he was great in the ring or on the mic, I was a fan. But, my argument is that he was severly overhyped after his death, to which you basically agreed. Perhaps he should have won the title in 1994, thats another argument. But he was in the WWF another 5 years and never really shined like he did vs. Bret. Let me pose a hypo to you. If Owen walked into the Kemper Arena at Over the Edge and told Vince he was retiring, and never had anything to do with wrestling again, are we having any conversation about Owen in the Hall of Fame, or being a legend in the sport? I personally say yes, for what he did with Stampede and the contribution he made to WWE, specifically from 94-97. And I am not even using KoKo B. Ware as the measuring stick, although isn't that ironic. I think he falls in line with a guy like Arn Anderson to be honest, an under rated in-ring guy, great talker, who was an awesome tag team wrestler, but could easily be a singles guy. Owen and Arn were over shadowed by Bret and Flair but that didn't make them any less talented imo. Even if Owen retired in 99 he still had almost a 10 year career with WWE with plenty of memorable moments. And the fact of the matter is Owen was a member of the Hart family, just like Arn was a member of the 4 Horsemen. I'm not saying the guy was going to be WWF Champion. Because that window closed in 97, as I have said many times, but I think he still falls into the under rated category for his all around skill. Had he won the WWF Title, for even 90 days, we wouldn't even be having this conversation imo. And in my opinion, Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels are in no way, shape or form over rated. Those are the two most all around talented professional wrestlers I have ever seen. Not every Flair or HBK match is an instant classic, but I think those two guys automatically made their opponent better. That being said, in my mind, Shawn Michaels has the longest list of great matches I can name for any one guy. |
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jakksking1
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 2, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
Posts: 2,843
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Post by jakksking1 on Feb 3, 2012 13:37:41 GMT -5
I appreciate your opinion, very well argued. I think its just a difference in opinion, of course, so there isn't really much else to say. However, I did think about posing my hypo as "What if his name was Owen Smith, and retired in 1999." I think a lot of his praise does come from his family name, but then again his family is made up of very good wrestlers.
I agree, even though I listed another legend, undertaker as overrated. I think the thing that seperates Flair, Michaels and Savage from many other wrestlers is the fact they make every opponent look fantastic. These men have gotten great matches out of The Ultimate Warrior, Hogan and other less gifted wrestlers. I think many fail to realize about Flair that he was basically Hulk Hogan of the South in the 80s, only he was also putting on5 star matches every night. I fell into that trap around 1999/00 watching him in WCW.
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Post by punksnotdead on Feb 3, 2012 13:58:56 GMT -5
I appreciate your opinion, very well argued. I think its just a difference in opinion, of course, so there isn't really much else to say. However, I did think about posing my hypo as "What if his name was Owen Smith, and retired in 1999." I think a lot of his praise does come from his family name, but then again his family is made up of very good wrestlers. I agree, even though I listed another legend, undertaker as overrated. I think the thing that seperates Flair, Michaels and Savage from many other wrestlers is the fact they make every opponent look fantastic. These men have gotten great matches out of The Ultimate Warrior, Hogan and other less gifted wrestlers. I think many fail to realize about Flair that he was basically Hulk Hogan of the South in the 80s, only he was also putting on5 star matches every night. I fell into that trap around 1999/00 watching him in WCW. Yeah, that is exactly it. I think because he wasn't doing it in WWE people want to try and discredit that, but Flair was doing it everywhere and working with every territories top guy making him look like a star. Flair's legacy was really hurt by the NWO though imo because he was so over shadowed in the mid to late 90s, which is unfortunately what people are going to remember most if that was the high point of their wrestling fandom. I also think fan's don't generally take into account how the business evolves or how it had evolved by the time Flair was on his last run in the mid to late 2000's. Flair used to wrestle every night for an hour, now fans can barely watch a half hour match without losing interest. So you sort of have to take into consideration who his audience was and how the different things he did at the time were so much better than the other wrestlers around him. I mean Flair made Sting an over night superstar that lasted 20+ years, that is what his name meant in 1989. |
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Post by punksnotdead on Feb 3, 2012 14:02:14 GMT -5
Overrated 1.Hulk Hogan 2. Ultimate Warrior 3. The Rock Underrated 1. Bam Bam Bigelow 2. Chris Candido 3. Vader We got carried away with all this other talk, that I didn't want this to be left behind. I thought Bam Bam Bigelow was an absolutely awesome talent. I think he and Vader have comfortable arguments for two of the most talented big men in pro wrestling history. I don't necessarily think either was used particularly well in WWE but those two guys could go. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2012 14:42:39 GMT -5
Overrated 1.Hulk Hogan 2. Ultimate Warrior 3. The Rock Underrated 1. Bam Bam Bigelow 2. Chris Candido 3. Vader We got carried away with all this other talk, that I didn't want this to be left behind. I thought Bam Bam Bigelow was an absolutely awesome talent. I think he and Vader have comfortable arguments for two of the most talented big men in pro wrestling history. I don't necessarily think either was used particularly well in WWE but those two guys could go. The only place that used Bam Bam great was ECW, imo. Vader should have been unstoppable in the WWF but Shawn Michaels had way too much say. Vader should of just  ed Shawn up and took the possibility of being fired to teach him a lesson. |
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Post by Rule 30 on Feb 3, 2012 14:53:16 GMT -5
We got carried away with all this other talk, that I didn't want this to be left behind. I thought Bam Bam Bigelow was an absolutely awesome talent. I think he and Vader have comfortable arguments for two of the most talented big men in pro wrestling history. I don't necessarily think either was used particularly well in WWE but those two guys could go. The only place that used Bam Bam great was ECW, imo. Vader should have been unstoppable in the WWF but Shawn Michaels had way too much say. Vader should of just ed Shawn up and took the possibility of being fired to teach him a lesson. Vader could have too. Just ask Ken Shamrock. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 3, 2012 16:59:32 GMT -5
I disagree with this part. Guys like HBK, Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect had completely different matches depending on who they were wrestling. For recent example, watch HBK vs. Undertaker from Wrestlemania 25 and then watch HBK vs. Undertaker from Ground Zero in 1997. Two completely different matches. Same goes for Bret Hart. He wrestled big guys like Undertaker & Diesel completely different from the way he wrestled smaller guys like HBK and Perfect. Sure they used some of the same moves (elbow drop, kip up, back breaker, leg sweep, etc.) but just because they used some of the same moves doesn't mean they worked the same match style. Flair, on the other hand, IN MY OPINION wrestled the same match style regardless of who it was. Agreed 100%. Guys like Bret and Shawn could wrestle many different styles depending on who they were facing. W/ Flair, he basically had the same exact match no matter if his opponent was a small guy or a giant. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 3, 2012 17:07:24 GMT -5
Thats cool because its your opinion but can you elaborate on this? I'm not a big fan of HBK during his second run, and feel that people overrate his matches, but he was still putting on 4-5 star matches and usually mixed up his styles. W/ guys like Jericho and Angle, he had quick and fast-paced matches where you had no clue what was going to happen next. W/ guys like Batista and Triple H, he'd slow down the match and work a more stiff-looking style. Throw in the fact that the didn't always end his matches w/ a SCM(he sometimes threw in a submission or quick rollup pin), and HBK was still one of the most versitile guys on the roster.
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Post by done on Feb 3, 2012 18:21:37 GMT -5
Overrated
1 - Hulk Hogan
2 - Rick Flair
3 - Kevin Nash
Underrated
1 - Owen Hart
2 - Curt Hennig
3 - Rick Rude
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Rob7274
Main Eventer
Joined on: Sept 3, 2010 5:46:16 GMT -5
Posts: 3,821
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Post by Rob7274 on Feb 4, 2012 16:57:43 GMT -5
I really have enjoyed reading all your responses....but I'm just going to post a list...
Overrated
HBK
Cena
HHH
Underrated
Rick Martel
British Bulldog
Scott Hall
Roddy Piper
Usos
Drew McIntyre
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Road Warriors
POSSIBLE BAD TRADER
"When we get done with you, we're going after family members boys!"
Joined on: Aug 15, 2006 15:16:34 GMT -5
Posts: 1,622
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Post by Road Warriors on Feb 6, 2012 14:04:50 GMT -5
Flair's complete match included him having moves done to him the entire match.
- Knee drop
- Chops
- Figure Four
- Taking that annoying back body drop where he falls on his side.
- Falling over.
Flair made a career out of booking himself as champion, having his friends book him as champion and having other guys make him look good.
That's not true. The NWA board decided who was Champion and who wasn't. Up until 1986 this was the case. Flair was Champion because he had the talent to get others over and to put asses in the seats. He did his job well.
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Greensborohill
Main Eventer
CHAMPION
Joined on: Jan 14, 2007 14:44:44 GMT -5
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Post by Greensborohill on Feb 6, 2012 14:34:52 GMT -5
I miss everyone, Hogan, Warrior, Honky, JYD, Flair, Bret & Jim, Shawn & Marty, Hillbilly, Animal Steele, Animal & Hawk, Andre, Jake, Dusty. They all made a niche for themselves in my memory. Can I pinpoint those I think were overrated and underrated? I guess. But I'd rather watch the overatted ones than anyone in todays industry.
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Post by Nivro™ on Feb 6, 2012 16:30:49 GMT -5
Overrated-
1)Shawn Michaels
2)Eddie Guerrero
3)Bret Hart
Underrated-
1)Marty Jannetty
2)Tully Blanchard (Seriously this guy could have been Ric Flair if Ric Flair wasnt there)
3)Rick Martel
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Post by He Hate Me on Feb 6, 2012 18:29:20 GMT -5
Yes! Demolitionman please give us your top 3 overrated and underrated wrestlers. I am with you I don't know how Owen Hart is overrated but that is someone's opinion just like I think HHH,Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior are all overrated does not mean someone else does. So please give us your 3 of each. You have a voice on this board now let it be heard. I'll try to explain my opinion why I feel Owen is overrated, not trying to start an argument, just a discussion per Bash's orders!. The IWC has really overhyped Owen after his death. During his career, he was a very good wrestler and a very good heel. No one is denying that. I hear lots of people calling for him to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. A lot of fans call him a legend. While I feel he was a great wrestler, I wouldn't go so far as to call him a legend. If he didn't die the way he did and/or his last name wasn't Hart, most probably wouldn't be calling him a legend. He was a great wrestler who had 1 outstanding feud with his brother, and another good feud with Austin which ended prematurely. He was stuck in mid-card hell for a while, and in the tag team circuit. A lot of the IWC also likes to claim Owen was going to get the strap. Fact is, he wasn't. With Austin/Rock /HBK/Taker, he wasn't getting the strap anytime soon. When he died, he was playing the Blue Blazer, feuding with a pimp. I know a lot of people like to paint rosey pictures of wrestlers when they die, asking what could have been. Owen was a very likeable guy in real life, a great wrestler, but he isn't the legend the IWC paints him to be. I couldn't agree more about Owen Hart, you pretty much hit every nail on the head there. Overrated: Triple H: Is he a good wrestler? Yes, absolutely. Was he such a good wrestler that he deserved the success he had? Not really. I never found him to be great on the mic either, his character rarely could draw me in and make me care about what he had to say. Chris Benoit: Fantastic wrestler, before he gained so much mass. Benoit was great in WCW during his last three years there and was still at that form at the beginning of his WWE run but as he got bigger, his matches were less exciting. Not to mention the bland character he always seemed to portray, especially as a face. Owen Hart: for the reasons stated above by jakksking1 Underrated: Curt Hennig: Hennig had the unique mix of a tremendous athletic skill and seemingly never ending charisma. Mr Perfect was one of the best characters going during that era. He truely didn't need the World strap because he was always over (Hennan on his side helped) and always put on a great display in the ring. Jake Roberts: Roberts was another guy that had athletic talent as well as the ability to always grab your attention with whatever he had to say. Like Hennig he didn't need the World strap, he was over without it. Scott Steiner: Most people think of Big Poppa Pump when they think Steiner, but before he was the Big Bad Booty Daddy he was a fantastic wrestler. Early day Scott Steiner could have been a major talent if given the chance. I feel as he gained too much mass his performance started to suffer much like Triple H and Benoit. |
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Post by gelatinoustapeworm on Feb 6, 2012 18:35:55 GMT -5
Overrated:
The Road Warriors
Kevin Nash
Scott Hall
Triple H
Sid
Underrated:
Jake Roberts
Rick Rude
Bam Bam Bigelow
The Killer Bees
The Rougeau Brothers
Arn Anderson
Tito Santana
Lance Storm
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jakksking1
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 2, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
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Post by jakksking1 on Feb 6, 2012 21:52:38 GMT -5
I'll try to explain my opinion why I feel Owen is overrated, not trying to start an argument, just a discussion per Bash's orders!. The IWC has really overhyped Owen after his death. During his career, he was a very good wrestler and a very good heel. No one is denying that. I hear lots of people calling for him to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. A lot of fans call him a legend. While I feel he was a great wrestler, I wouldn't go so far as to call him a legend. If he didn't die the way he did and/or his last name wasn't Hart, most probably wouldn't be calling him a legend. He was a great wrestler who had 1 outstanding feud with his brother, and another good feud with Austin which ended prematurely. He was stuck in mid-card hell for a while, and in the tag team circuit. A lot of the IWC also likes to claim Owen was going to get the strap. Fact is, he wasn't. With Austin/Rock /HBK/Taker, he wasn't getting the strap anytime soon. When he died, he was playing the Blue Blazer, feuding with a pimp. I know a lot of people like to paint rosey pictures of wrestlers when they die, asking what could have been. Owen was a very likeable guy in real life, a great wrestler, but he isn't the legend the IWC paints him to be. I couldn't agree more about Owen Hart, you pretty much hit every nail on the head there. . Not to beat a dead horse about internet wrestling fans overrating Owen Hart, but theres a poll going about a couple threads down about the best Tag Team of the 90s, and Owen/Bulldog are beating the Legion of Doom. Seriously? That is nuts |
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 6, 2012 23:10:13 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more about Owen Hart, you pretty much hit every nail on the head there. . Not to beat a dead horse about internet wrestling fans overrating Owen Hart, but theres a poll going about a couple threads down about the best Tag Team of the 90s, and Owen/Bulldog are beating the Legion of Doom. Seriously? That is nuts Owen and Bulldog were a pretty good team. They had great chemistry and worked well together. Their stuff w/ the Hart Foundation and their feud w/ Austin and HBK in 1997 was great stuff. LOD had a great gimmick but I never got into their matches much. They had a few classics but I never thought that they were constantly putting on amazing matches like some people believe they did. |
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jakksking1
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 2, 2011 14:45:41 GMT -5
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Post by jakksking1 on Feb 6, 2012 23:18:18 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse about internet wrestling fans overrating Owen Hart, but theres a poll going about a couple threads down about the best Tag Team of the 90s, and Owen/Bulldog are beating the Legion of Doom. Seriously? That is nuts Owen and Bulldog were a pretty good team. They had great chemistry and worked well together. Their stuff w/ the Hart Foundation and their feud w/ Austin and HBK in 1997 was great stuff. LOD had a great gimmick but I never got into their matches much. They had a few classics but I never thought that they were constantly putting on amazing matches like some people believe they did. Not debating their chemistry. One team is considered one of the 2 or 3 best in wrestling history. They other was pretty good, as you said. The point being how the internet overrates Hart beyond belief. |
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Post by punksnotdead on Feb 7, 2012 1:31:15 GMT -5
Owen and Bulldog were a pretty good team. They had great chemistry and worked well together. Their stuff w/ the Hart Foundation and their feud w/ Austin and HBK in 1997 was great stuff. LOD had a great gimmick but I never got into their matches much. They had a few classics but I never thought that they were constantly putting on amazing matches like some people believe they did. Not debating their chemistry. One team is considered one of the 2 or 3 best in wrestling history. They other was pretty good, as you said. The point being how the internet overrates Hart beyond belief. Who says? I thought the Road Warriors were awesome, arguably the greatest tag team gimmick of all time, but Bulldog and Owen could out wrestle them with their eyes closed. Same goes for the Bulldogs and Hart Foundation against Demolition in the 80's poll. Let me ask you something, who was better Hulk Hogan or Bret Hart? Better at what you ask? Charisma, wrestling, popularity? How do you gauge these things? Outside of money, which is the only definitive truth in wrestling, the rest is just opinion and interpretation. Perspective. So yes, in my opinion, and in the 1990's, Owen and Bulldog >>> Legion of Doom. Prove me wrong. |
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