|
Post by Jean-Ralphio on Sept 21, 2013 9:52:45 GMT -5
Wins and All star appearances are the two stupidest reasons for Hall of Fame. Honestly, the PED stuff will keep him out most likely, but I think he deserves it. If Mussina and Schilling get in, which I think they do, then Pettite should. Mussina and Schilling had higher elite time frames than Pettite but still relatively the same type pitcher. I'd put Mussina in, but I've said before that I don't think Schilling deserves it. Neither does Pettite. Of course the HOF today would probably let me in as they've dropped the standards so much so it wouldn't surprise me if all three got in. Schilling will get in before the other 2, which I know will really ruffle those feathers of yours
|
|
|
Post by Chip on Sept 21, 2013 10:14:40 GMT -5
Well, All Star appearances are based on fan votes. and yes you can get a win as a pitcher if you give up 6 runs in a game....but if you get wins but your era is still under 4 there's no reason why you can't look at wins as being important. ESPECIALLY with the way they actually "award" wins
If I'm a pitcher, I give up 1 run through 7 innings and leave with the game tied, then my team scores in the bottom of the 8th, i don't get a "win"...even though I'm 90% responsible for my team winning because I only allowed the other team to score 1 run. to me, that makes wins MORE important because you have to pitch well AND your team has to score enough runs within a certain time period.
the Hall of Fame shouldnt be reserved for only the Best of the Best anymore. There is too much of a turnaround in baseball, too many guys playing well. To me you're a hall of fame worthy player if you have a long career full of GREAT accomplishments according to the rules & stats baseball keeps record of.
it's called Hall of FAME, not Hall of Only the greatest players ever guys like Pettitte & Schilling were not the best pitchers in history, but they were good enough and FAMOUS enough to where a large majority of baseball fans know who they are and who they played for, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 21, 2013 13:27:05 GMT -5
Well, All Star appearances are based on fan votes. and yes you can get a win as a pitcher if you give up 6 runs in a game....but if you get wins but your era is still under 4 there's no reason why you can't look at wins as being important. ESPECIALLY with the way they actually "award" wins If I'm a pitcher, I give up 1 run through 7 innings and leave with the game tied, then my team scores in the bottom of the 8th, i don't get a "win"...even though I'm 90% responsible for my team winning because I only allowed the other team to score 1 run. to me, that makes wins MORE important because you have to pitch well AND your team has to score enough runs within a certain time period. the Hall of Fame shouldnt be reserved for only the Best of the Best anymore. There is too much of a turnaround in baseball, too many guys playing well. To me you're a hall of fame worthy player if you have a long career full of GREAT accomplishments according to the rules & stats baseball keeps record of. it's called Hall of FAME, not Hall of Only the greatest players ever guys like Pettitte & Schilling were not the best pitchers in history, but they were good enough and FAMOUS enough to where a large majority of baseball fans know who they are and who they played for, etc. I disagree with that. I think the Hall of Fame should be reserved for guys who were the elite. The first class had guys like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, etc.... These are guys who were the elite of their day, not just good. If you just toss in guys who are "good" then you water it down. Someone like Jamie Moyer becomes a HOFer. He played 25 years which is an impressive feat. He racked up 269 wins and won 20 games a couple of times. He was a good, solid pitcher you wanted on your roster pretty much his entire career. Is he Hall of Fame worthy? Hell no. Good pitcher. Good guy. Not HOFer. The fact that there are so many good players is irrelevant. Look at a guy like Clayton Kershaw. Dude is 25, has an era under 2 has won 1 Cy Young already, was runner up for a second one and is going to be a top candidate for one this year. If he keeps that up over the long haul then he's an elite player and a HOFer and a guy like him goes into Cooperstown in any era.
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 21, 2013 13:29:08 GMT -5
I'd put Mussina in, but I've said before that I don't think Schilling deserves it. Neither does Pettite. Of course the HOF today would probably let me in as they've dropped the standards so much so it wouldn't surprise me if all three got in. Schilling will get in before the other 2, which I know will really ruffle those feathers of yours I don't disagree with you and it does annoy me. Of the three, Mussina is the most deserving in my mind with Schilling and Pettite both being borderline.
|
|
|
Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Sept 21, 2013 18:08:01 GMT -5
Pettitte is a Hall of Famer to me. He was a 4 time World Champion before he ever took HGH, and he only did it to try and injury. He should not be held in the same tarnish as guys who took ANABOLIC STEROIDS to cheat. Andy did not take STEROIDS, Andy took HGH 2 times to try and fix his elbow. He's also over 100 games over .500 and there's like nobody in baseball history who is 100+ games over .500 and NOT in the Hall of Fame. Andy was never the Ace, he was never the most dominant pitcher in baseball, but he always there and you could always depend on him. I can't even count how many times the "ace" would lose Game 1 of a Playoff Series and Big Game Andy had to dig deep in Game 2 to level the Series. Andy had the ability to get gritty and gut out games where he wasn't at his best, but still found ways to keep his team in it. Unfortunately, The Boss didn't see Andy as valuable as the fans and his teammates did and we lost Andy to Houston for 3 years, but he came home and was one of the best pitchers we had in the 2009 Playoffs. He's one of my favorite players ever, and just like when he tried to retire after 2010, I'll really miss him. I don't care that he's 41, I would have loved to watch him pitch for years if he'd decided to play more. He's just one of those guys, like Mo, who you just really never want to see go. I'll really miss him. Even though he wasn't at his best this year, you could tell that nobody cared more. In a game that's all about overpaid superstars who make their mega millions no matter if they succeed or fail, and often times people like Robinson Cano and A-Rod dog it and play lazy and seem not to really care if they come up big.....NOBODY looked like they cared more than Andy Pettitte. You can read his emotions on the mound and you can tell he gets pissed with every mistake he makes and that he's just a true competitor who just wants to win and help the team. I'll take a team full of mediocre guys who CARE over a team full of indifferent superstars. Even though it wasn't what we all hoped it would be and it didn't lead to a title, I'm glad he came back. I just love watching him pitch. It kinda sucks that I know I'll only see him pitch 2 more games, unless the improbable happens and they make the Playoffs. Everyone who has ever had success for the Yankees is a hall of famer to you. Andy Pettitte has had more than a cup of coffee's worth of success. There is only ONE pitcher in MLB history who is currently eligible for Hall of Fame voting who is 100+ games over .500 and that man is ROGER CLEMENS. And like I said, Andy Pettitte shouldn't face any scrutiny over PED use because he used HGH, not anabolic steroids. It has been medically proven than an adult male who does not have a natural deficiency in HGH is NOT going to receive any benefit from taking HGH. It certainly does not do ANYTHING to make you better at sports. Andy Pettitte took HGH in 2002 and 2004. He was already a 4 time World Series Champion before this. He took HGH in 2002 when he hurt his elbow, and again in 2004. It didn't work. He ended up having season ending surgery. So Andy Pettitte's numbers are what they are, with or without HGH. A-Rod, on the other hand, probably had his career significantly improved by taking ANABOLIC STEROIDS. They had him bigger and stronger and a more powerful hitter. ANABOLIC STEROIDS make you better at sports. HGH does not. Pettitte is 100+ games over .500, and when you factor in his postseason body of work, he's a Hall of Famer for sure. HGH didn't factor in at all. It will hurt his reputation in the eyes of people who do not understand sports medicine and think that all banned substances mean a guy is "ROIDING UP"....but those people are just ignorant and don't do their proper research.
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 21, 2013 18:25:03 GMT -5
Jim Kaat and Tommy John have more wins and a lower career ERA. They have not been able to get in. Jack Morris has one less win than Pettite and he hasn't been able to get in. What makes Pettite a better candidate than any of those guys? All except John have more K's. Kaat won several Golden Gloves.
I put don't put a lot of cred in post season stats. If you go by post season stats then a guy like Ryne Sandberg would've never got in. He has all of 10 post season games under his belt. I think we would all agree that Greg Maddux is a first ballot guy. He was 11-14 in the post season so his inability to come up with a win should count against him? If a guy is on a team that goes to the post season every year (like the Yankees do) then he's going to pad his post season stats over a guy who never gets there. Yeah, it's great if you have them but you're really going to prefer a guy who played well in the playoffs over a guy who never go there because he played on crummy teams?
|
|
|
Post by Chip on Sept 21, 2013 20:47:36 GMT -5
so basically you only want to see the best players in a hall of fame which means 1 maybe 2 guys per year and they already would be out of guys. so it would be 10 years+ before they could start again. and even then, they aren't putting in anyone who has ties to PEDs, so it may be even longer.
the Hall of Fame is a business. they need to make MONEY. having an induction ceremony every year is a big part of the deal. now every so often you get a down year like this one...which is fine, but if the hall is supposed to be only for the best of the best. that does nothing for anyone.
the hall of fame is a place of baseball HISTORY....and anyone in the game who has made a significant impact on baseball history should be there. will Melky Cabrera every get in the hall? no but a guy like Andy Pettitte who has the reputation, and the stats of a GREAT baseball player....not good or above-average, GREAT. deserves to have his name in that hall. along with every other GREAT player. there are only a handful of guys who are truly "elite" the hall should not be only reserved for those guys
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 21, 2013 22:38:11 GMT -5
so basically you only want to see the best players in a hall of fame which means 1 maybe 2 guys per year and they already would be out of guys. so it would be 10 years+ before they could start again. and even then, they aren't putting in anyone who has ties to PEDs, so it may be even longer. the Hall of Fame is a business. they need to make MONEY. having an induction ceremony every year is a big part of the deal. now every so often you get a down year like this one...which is fine, but if the hall is supposed to be only for the best of the best. that does nothing for anyone. the hall of fame is a place of baseball HISTORY....and anyone in the game who has made a significant impact on baseball history should be there. will Melky Cabrera every get in the hall? no but a guy like Andy Pettitte who has the reputation, and the stats of a GREAT baseball player....not good or above-average, GREAT. deserves to have his name in that hall. along with every other GREAT player. there are only a handful of guys who are truly "elite" the hall should not be only reserved for those guys There's a 5 year waiting period for the hall right now. That is the only reason a guy like Greg Maddux isn't in there. He's a first ballot guy and everyone agrees he should be, but he's got to wait 5 years. Yes, the hall should be reserved for the elite. It shouldn't be for guys who are just good and maybe great. Pettite isn't one of those guys anyway. He's a good player. No argument there. Great one? No. He's never been the ace really. He's just a guy who is an extremely reliable #2. The Hall should be reserved for guys who are the elite. It should be reserved for the Ruths and Cobbs of the world. Is there room for guys who may not be elite, but who were really, really good for their entire career (Eddie Murray), yes there is. Pettite isn't that guy. He doesn't have a shelf full of Cy Youngs. He doesn't even have one. He doesn't have an MVP anywhere. He doesn't have the career numbers. Tell me why Pettite deserves to get in when the voters have rejected guys like Tommy John and Jack Morris and Jim Kaat? What does Pettite have that those guys don't? Don't get me wrong, he was a good player and had a good career, but he's not a great player.
|
|
|
Post by Chip on Sept 22, 2013 12:00:56 GMT -5
I really don't want Mariano to retire. No, really.
|
|
|
Post by LA Times on Sept 22, 2013 12:27:40 GMT -5
These guys should be inducted in the 2014 HOF Class
Craig Biggio Jeff Bagwell Mike Piazza Edgar Martinez Tom Glavine Greg Maddux Frank Thomas
|
|
|
Post by LA Times on Sept 22, 2013 14:02:36 GMT -5
What do you know, in Andy Pettitte's final regular season start at Yankee Stadium, he is throwing a no-hitter.
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Ralphio on Sept 22, 2013 14:40:03 GMT -5
Hall of Fame should be the elite of the elite, but its not. It hasnt been. So guys like Pettite will get a fair shake but regardless of HGH or steroids, Pettite is tainted.
Thats probably going to keep him out, as opposed to anything else.
Good chance he gets in, but it will be a while, and it will be after the Schillings and the Mussinas of the world.
|
|
|
Post by T R W on Sept 22, 2013 16:07:31 GMT -5
Braves win their first division title in a while. It's exciting. But I fear for them in the playoffs. Too many injuries.
|
|
|
Post by ICW on Sept 22, 2013 16:32:29 GMT -5
I don't think Pettitte, Schilling or Mussina should get in.
SMALL HALL ALL THE WAY
|
|
|
Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 22, 2013 16:50:35 GMT -5
Hall of Fame should be the elite of the elite, but its not. It hasnt been. So guys like Pettite will get a fair shake but regardless of HGH or steroids, Pettite is tainted. Thats probably going to keep him out, as opposed to anything else. Good chance he gets in, but it will be a while, and it will be after the Schillings and the Mussinas of the world. I'd like to see the argument why someone like Pettite gets in when the voters have rejected guys like Tommy John and Jack Morris who had similar or better careers.
|
|
|
Post by T R W on Sept 22, 2013 16:52:50 GMT -5
Because those guys should be in too.
|
|
|
Post by Chip on Sept 22, 2013 17:33:09 GMT -5
Because those guys should be in too. [/hof argument]
|
|
|
Post by ICW on Sept 22, 2013 19:00:54 GMT -5
I've always been "no" on Jack Morris being elected into the HOF. It's always a hot topic of debate between the sabermetrics community and those who value traditional statics. I believe this post by Matthew Poullot does a great job of highlighting why Morris does NOT belong: hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/jack-morris-would-lower-the-bar-for-the-hall-of-fame/Some of his points; -"When Morris debuted on the Hall of Fame ballot in 2000, he received 22 percent of the vote. His support dipped to 20 percent in 2001, and he only reached 30 percent on his sixth try in 2005. Now he’s all of the way up to 66.7 percent, still for no good reason that I can see." -"Morris is only a candidate for “best pitcher of the 1980s” because it just so happens that no elite starters showed up during that 1975-1980 timeframe and had their peak years during the 1980s. No one would ever think of Morris as the top pitcher of the 1970s or 1990s had his 1980s happened in another decade." -"Even if you still want to give Morris “best pitcher of the 1980s” honors, he certainly wasn’t the best pitcher of the first half of the decade (Steve Carlton, 88-47, 2.91 ERA; Morris 86-62, 3.66 ERA) or anywhere near the best pitcher of the second half of the decade (Roger Clemens 86-41, 2.92 ERA; Morris 76-57, 3.67 ERA)" -"And Morris wasn’t the best pitcher in any season of the decade. Not only did he never win a Cy Young Award, but he never even finished second." -It’s the Cy Young balloting that is particularly telling, in my opinion. Some of those who argue for Morris like to tell us that we weren’t there, that we didn’t see Morris when he was winning all of those big games. One of his best points regarding the voters who love to talk about how most of the sabermetrics community didn't actually *see* Morris: "Well, look at the people that were there (on the Cy Young ballot). Morris pitched for 18 seasons, all of them in a 14-team American League. During that time, there were 504 ballots cast for the Cy Young Award. Morris received a first-place vote on five of those ballots. One percent. He got two first-place votes in 1983, when he finished third in the balloting behind the immortal LaMarr Hoyt and a reliever in Dan Quisenberry. He got the other three in 1991, when he finished fourth behind Clemens, Scott Erickson and Jim Abbott." Also, this: "Morris, though, still doesn’t compare. His 3.90 ERA would be the worst in Cooperstown. Even in seemingly weak fields, his best AL ERA finish was fifth place. He led the league in wins twice; once in the strike-shortened 1981 season with 14 and later in 1992 when he went 21-6 with a 4.04 ERA. He led the league in innings and strikeouts once apiece. His win total of 254 is pretty good, but it’s still behind that of 41 other starters in history and it’s really the strong point of his case. Also, it should be noted that the AL was the weaker of the two leagues during Morris’ career. He was facing easier competition than his NL counterparts." ---- Think it's pretty evident that Jack Morris wasn't even highly regarded as being "elite" by voters when he WAS pitching. And that whole "he pitched to the score" thing is nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by Jean-Ralphio on Sept 22, 2013 19:17:08 GMT -5
I dont think Morris should get in, but if Tommy John gets in it should be for the surgery, not because of what he did.
|
|
|
Post by The Mask of Truth on Sept 23, 2013 5:41:16 GMT -5
Braves win their first division title in a while. It's exciting. But I fear for them in the playoffs. Too many injuries. Not me, I fear them. The Dodgers went 2-5 against them this year. The worst record of all teams bound for the playoffs.
|
|