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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 15:56:23 GMT -5
I'm curious what other libertarians think about the subject of forced vaccinations. I've been reading quite a bit lately about how diseases like measles and mumps are making a comeback even though we have vaccines that virtually eliminated said diseases decades ago. Of course now we have nutjobs who are refusing to vaccinate their children for a variety of reasons and thus the disease has made a come back.
There is some argument to be made here, I think, for forced vaccinations for the general health of the public. The fact is that vaccinations are not 100% effective and rely on herd immunity. Not everyone vaccinated against measles will develop immunity. However, if it's 95% effective, what are the chances the 5 who took the vaccine but aren't immune come in contact with anyone who has the disease? Now imagine that out of the 100 only 50% are immune. What is the chance that the 50 who aren't immune come in contact with the disease? It's obviously much higher. The failure to vacccinate doesn't just endanger the person who doesn't get the vaccination, but it endangers the health of other people who did decide to vaccinated but who the vaccination may not have worked on. Thoughts?
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Post by Lord Ragnarok on Sept 7, 2013 18:41:48 GMT -5
I never get vaccinated and my health has been just fine. I used to get sick all the time as a kid and I vaccinated every year. Now that I'm an adult I rarely get sick and continue to not receive vaccinations.
Not sure why you would call people that don't get vaccinated "nutjobs", what a ridiculous statement. I wish my parents were "nutjobs" and didn't get me vaccinated as a kid, maybe I wouldn't have been sick all the time. Vaccinations should be a choice, not mandatory, if people choose not to get them I fail to see how that makes them a "nutjob".
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Post by ztj_wwf on Sept 7, 2013 18:44:50 GMT -5
Please don't call yourself a libertarian if you're for forced vaccinations.
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 18:50:52 GMT -5
I never get vaccinated and my health has been just fine. I used to get sick all the time as a kid and I vaccinated every year. Now that I'm an adult I rarely get sick and continue to not receive vaccinations. Not sure why you would call people that don't get vaccinated "nutjobs", what a ridiculous statement. I wish my parents were "nutjobs" and didn't get me vaccinated as a kid, maybe I wouldn't have been sick all the time. Vaccinations should be a choice, not mandatory, if people choose not to get them I fail to see how that makes them a "nutjob". Adults never get vaccinations. Well, the flu shot would be the exception but a lot of adults never get them. If you didn't get any childhood vaccinations at all, there's a fair chance you'd be dead and we wouldn't be having this discussion. |
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Post by Lord Ragnarok on Sept 7, 2013 18:52:49 GMT -5
I never get vaccinated and my health has been just fine. I used to get sick all the time as a kid and I vaccinated every year. Now that I'm an adult I rarely get sick and continue to not receive vaccinations. Not sure why you would call people that don't get vaccinated "nutjobs", what a ridiculous statement. I wish my parents were "nutjobs" and didn't get me vaccinated as a kid, maybe I wouldn't have been sick all the time. Vaccinations should be a choice, not mandatory, if people choose not to get them I fail to see how that makes them a "nutjob". Adults never get vaccinations. Well, the flu shot would be the exception but a lot of adults never get them. If you didn't get any childhood vaccinations at all, there's a fair chance you'd be dead and we wouldn't be having this discussion. You can't be serious. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 18:55:56 GMT -5
Please don't call yourself a libertarian if you're for forced vaccinations. Should people be allowed to engage in behavior that endangers everyone? |
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Post by slappy on Sept 7, 2013 18:55:57 GMT -5
I never get vaccinated and my health has been just fine. I used to get sick all the time as a kid and I vaccinated every year. Now that I'm an adult I rarely get sick and continue to not receive vaccinations. Not sure why you would call people that don't get vaccinated "nutjobs", what a ridiculous statement. I wish my parents were "nutjobs" and didn't get me vaccinated as a kid, maybe I wouldn't have been sick all the time. Vaccinations should be a choice, not mandatory, if people choose not to get them I fail to see how that makes them a "nutjob". Please don't turn this into religion bashing. I'm using that as an example of why kids should be vaccinated. jennymccarthybodycount.comI'm very conflicted between my anti-government intervention stance and my not wanting to see people die easily preventable deaths stance. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I think those people are fooled by the terrible "research" put out by people like Jenny McCarthy. Her whole basis is a debunked study of like 12 people. It sickens me that she is being given a platform now as a co-host of the View. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 19:06:57 GMT -5
Adults never get vaccinations. Well, the flu shot would be the exception but a lot of adults never get them. If you didn't get any childhood vaccinations at all, there's a fair chance you'd be dead and we wouldn't be having this discussion. You can't be serious. Child vaccinations (in the US at least) Hep B, Hep A, Rotavirus, Diphtehria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps, chicken pox and rubella among others. All of those have the potential to be fatal. Heck, in 1916, polio caused more than 6,000 deaths in the US alone and there were 27,000 other kids who got it and probably went through life crippled or scarred because of it. Look at FDR. He would've never been in a wheelchair if a vaccine was available. As recently as the 1950s there were nearly 60,000 cases in the use with a third of the victims left with some sort of paralysis. Now polio is gone in the US because of vaccinations. I had chicken pox as a kid. Every kid in my generation did at some point. My nieces will never have it. Why? Vaccinations. Measles is making a comeback because people are no longer getting vaccinations which means MORE people are getting sick, not less like your lovely theory would propose. There is a direct correlation between vaccination rates and rates of infection. Vaccination rates go up, infection rates go down. Vaccination rates go down, infection rates go up. It's not rocket science. Childhood mortality rates have plummeted since vaccinations became widespread. There's a very real chance that if you didn't get any vaccinations at all you'd be dead. |
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Post by Lord Ragnarok on Sept 7, 2013 19:07:46 GMT -5
Just take good care of your health and body and you won't need to rely on vaccinations. It's as simple as that. I would be appalled if the government made vaccinations mandatory. That is such an infringement on freedom it isn't even funny.
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Post by Lord Ragnarok on Sept 7, 2013 19:09:10 GMT -5
Child vaccinations (in the US at least) Hep B, Hep A, Rotavirus, Diphtehria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps, chicken pox and rubella among others. All of those have the potential to be fatal. Heck, in 1916, polio caused more than 6,000 deaths in the US alone and there were 27,000 other kids who got it and probably went through life crippled or scarred because of it. Look at FDR. He would've never been in a wheelchair if a vaccine was available. As recently as the 1950s there were nearly 60,000 cases in the use with a third of the victims left with some sort of paralysis. Now polio is gone in the US because of vaccinations. I had chicken pox as a kid. Every kid in my generation did at some point. My nieces will never have it. Why? Vaccinations. Measles is making a comeback because people are no longer getting vaccinations which means MORE people are getting sick, not less like your lovely theory would propose. There is a direct correlation between vaccination rates and rates of infection. Vaccination rates go up, infection rates go down. Vaccination rates go down, infection rates go up. It's not rocket science. Childhood mortality rates have plummeted since vaccinations became widespread. There's a very real chance that if you didn't get any vaccinations at all you'd be dead. Yeah... No. And your "lovely" theory would infringe on peoples rights, so I'm all set with that. |
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Post by slappy on Sept 7, 2013 19:11:08 GMT -5
Just take good care of your health and body and you won't need to rely on vaccinations. It's as simple as that. I would be appalled if the government made vaccinations mandatory. That is such an infringement on freedom it isn't even funny. Aren't kids required to have them in order to go to school? I know we were required here to have them and if you didn't you couldn't go to school. Should the kids decide if they want them or is it ok for parents to force their kids to get them (no government requirement, just parents forcing their kids to get them)? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 19:14:19 GMT -5
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 19:15:49 GMT -5
I never get vaccinated and my health has been just fine. I used to get sick all the time as a kid and I vaccinated every year. Now that I'm an adult I rarely get sick and continue to not receive vaccinations. Not sure why you would call people that don't get vaccinated "nutjobs", what a ridiculous statement. I wish my parents were "nutjobs" and didn't get me vaccinated as a kid, maybe I wouldn't have been sick all the time. Vaccinations should be a choice, not mandatory, if people choose not to get them I fail to see how that makes them a "nutjob". Please don't turn this into religion bashing. I'm using that as an example of why kids should be vaccinated. jennymccarthybodycount.comI'm very conflicted between my anti-government intervention stance and my not wanting to see people die easily preventable deaths stance. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I think those people are fooled by the terrible "research" put out by people like Jenny McCarthy. Her whole basis is a debunked study of like 12 people. It sickens me that she is being given a platform now as a co-host of the View. I'm in the same boat as you at being conflicted. On the one hand, I think we'd both agree that everyone has complete control over his/her body. On the other hand, not vaccinating is a decision made by parents for children and that decision not only puts the child (not the parent) at risk, but it puts the general public at risk as well. I think the feds have a role in protecting the public health for sure. Look at the 1972 smallpox outbreak in Yugoslavia. The government there (run by a dictator) rounded up everyone who'd been infected or exposed and had the military keep them under lock and key whether they were willing or not. Then they rounded up everyone else and vaccinated nearly the entire 18 million population in a matter of 2-3 weeks. The outbreak stopped. It's an extreme response to be sure and stomps on all kinds of personal rights, but a very, very effective one. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 19:16:38 GMT -5
Just take good care of your health and body and you won't need to rely on vaccinations. It's as simple as that. I would be appalled if the government made vaccinations mandatory. That is such an infringement on freedom it isn't even funny. And how do you take care of someone else's body? If you haven't been vaccinated against measles and I happen to be carrying it, what protects you? |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 19:17:40 GMT -5
Just take good care of your health and body and you won't need to rely on vaccinations. It's as simple as that. I would be appalled if the government made vaccinations mandatory. That is such an infringement on freedom it isn't even funny. Aren't kids required to have them in order to go to school? I know we were required here to have them and if you didn't you couldn't go to school. Should the kids decide if they want them or is it ok for parents to force their kids to get them (no government requirement, just parents forcing their kids to get them)? They are required for school, but some states are making exceptions if the parents have a moral objection to vaccinations. It's ridiculous. |
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Post by slappy on Sept 7, 2013 19:18:38 GMT -5
They aren't. They are tremendously helpful and good for society. I would like some reasons as to why people feel they are terrible and I don't mean "I got them and I still got sick." I mean studies showing people dying or being severely hurt because of them. |
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Post by Lord Ragnarok on Sept 7, 2013 19:19:36 GMT -5
Just take good care of your health and body and you won't need to rely on vaccinations. It's as simple as that. I would be appalled if the government made vaccinations mandatory. That is such an infringement on freedom it isn't even funny. Aren't kids required to have them in order to go to school? I know we were required here to have them and if you didn't you couldn't go to school. Should the kids decide if they want them or is it ok for parents to force their kids to get them (no government requirement, just parents forcing their kids to get them)? Parents should influence and guide children not force them to do something they don't want to. I can understand that vaccinations should be a school requirement but it should not be mandatory otherwise. |
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Post by Lord Ragnarok on Sept 7, 2013 19:20:25 GMT -5
Just take good care of your health and body and you won't need to rely on vaccinations. It's as simple as that. I would be appalled if the government made vaccinations mandatory. That is such an infringement on freedom it isn't even funny. And how do you take care of someone else's body? If you haven't been vaccinated against measles and I happen to be carrying it, what protects you? Good health. |
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Post by slappy on Sept 7, 2013 19:24:08 GMT -5
Aren't kids required to have them in order to go to school? I know we were required here to have them and if you didn't you couldn't go to school. Should the kids decide if they want them or is it ok for parents to force their kids to get them (no government requirement, just parents forcing their kids to get them)? They are required for school, but some states are making exceptions if the parents have a moral objection to vaccinations. It's ridiculous. Haven't there been times when parents of kids that aren't vaccinated have been brought up on charges when their kid dies? Aren't kids required to have them in order to go to school? I know we were required here to have them and if you didn't you couldn't go to school. Should the kids decide if they want them or is it ok for parents to force their kids to get them (no government requirement, just parents forcing their kids to get them)? Parents should influence and guide children not force them to do something they don't want to. I can understand that vaccinations should be a school requirement but it should not be mandatory otherwise. How do you let a 2 year old decide something like that? You can give them all the info in the world but they won't understand it. So you are ok with government forcing kid to be vaccinated just under certain circumstances. |
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Post by Hulkamaniac on Sept 7, 2013 19:24:40 GMT -5
And how do you take care of someone else's body? If you haven't been vaccinated against measles and I happen to be carrying it, what protects you? Good health. I don't know how to respond to this. You're arguing that if you're healthy nothing can make you unhealthy. So if you come down with a disease you weren't healthy to begin with? The logic makes no sense at all. Furthermore it's completely unscientific. If you have no immunity to a disease and you come in contact with that disease, you're going to get that disease. By your logic professional athletes should never get sick ever. They eat special diets. They have regimented exercise programs. They're as healthy as you get. But you read stories all the time about athletes playing sick. Heck, look at the lady who swam from Florida to Cuba. She did that while sick. Which should've never happened if she was in good enough shape to make that kind of swim. |
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