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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 10:02:40 GMT -5
Art is the creation of something in order to convey an idea. Such ideas can be displayed through Paintings, Sculptures, Music, Dramatic reeactments such as TV Shows, Plays, Films, & each can tell stories with varying lengths & depth of ideas.
Art is subjective, but it's clear that the more convincingly the piece achieves it's task, the greater the work.
War & Peace was written by Leo Tolstoy who believed the greatest art possessed universal appeal. The novel has achieved world recognition & holds status as a language crossing, phenomenon of literary genius.
Thus, it holds one of the single strongest claims to the title of "Greatest novel ever written."
However, the romance novels you find clogging the shelves of big-box department stores rarely have plot structure beyond the depth of a bad episode of "Days of our lives." But at the end of the day... They are both still books. Does this mean that all novel writing is trash?
So I conclude by repeating the question.
How can an entire artform be equated to cultural junk?
Let's also get one last thing out of the way.
If something reaches a certain point of unlikelihood, then it can be rounded like a number to being considered an impossibility. So for all intents & purposes, it seems impossible that any artform could be completely devoid of positive qualities.
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Post by CrossRhodes on Mar 23, 2014 11:04:18 GMT -5
"Can an entire artform be "trash?" Yes.  Tracy Emin's Bed. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 11:35:37 GMT -5
I disagree with Tolstoy. I believe that some of the greatest works of art can be extremely polarizing & not offer universal appeal. That difference could depend on what idea is being conveyed, because an idea can be more universal than others....the universal appeal (or lack of) could also change over generations.
I think the reason why those romance novels are cultural junk is because many assume that they are not creative (rehash of the same material with different character names, to cash in on horny women that aren't getting any - that sounds harsh, but it's the general consensus). Simply put, it's believed to be a money grab & thought to lack heart - it's like soaps, they aren't considered artistic television, pandering far too much to have integrity and their idea that they want to convey is profitability.
There's just as much art in other forms that is ignored as junk. In our history, some great works were not acknowledged until well after the artist had passed (if at all). The thing is, it isn't always about universal appeal. Often, it is simply getting the attention of the universe. Some things make it big only because of some unique marketing ploy & not because of the art, yet they achieve world recognition - doesn't mean they are great. Fifty Shades can be seen as a romance novel - for all intent & purposes - but it garnered attention because it is far, far more risqué than others. Does this make it better? I don't know because I have not read that or others similar. Either way....it simply struck the attention of the media & women readers all over the place - it'll redefine that genre, but it's popularity could make it harder for others to show credibility.
There can be great works found in art forms that are considered trash, but they usually won't get too much appreciation from the actual art world. Looking at wrestling, there is a science to it - it's also an art - but it would never be accepted as such. Furniture building by hand is an art, but there are only a few considered to truly be 'artist' when making furniture.
**Creativity or the belief of such, makes a huge difference in recognizing masterpieces. No one wants a rehash to be considered great. There are people painting flawlessly today, that make something in a style of classical artists & they are worthless. The only way they can gain attention as truly great, is if it's passed off as an unfound piece from this or that dead artist. Even using the same type of brush stroke can make an artist's work empty & meaningless, even if it is great. I think that may best explain why romance novels are considered junk - because it isn't art...it's $5.99 on a shelf.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 11:43:14 GMT -5
I disagree with Tolstoy. I believe that some of the greatest works of art can be extremely polarizing & not offer universal appeal. That difference could depend on what idea is being conveyed, because an idea can be more universal than others....the universal appeal (or lack of) could also change over generations. I think the reason why those romance novels are cultural junk is because many assume that they are not creative (rehash of the same material with different character names, to cash in on horny women that aren't getting any - that sounds harsh, but it's the general consensus). Simply put, it's believed to be a money grab & thought to lack heart - it's like soaps, they aren't considered artistic television, pandering far too much to have integrity and their idea that they want to convey is profitability. There's just as much art in other forms that is ignored as junk. In our history, some great works were not acknowledged until well after the artist had passed (if at all). The thing is, it isn't always about universal appeal. Often, it is simply getting the attention of the universe. Some things make it big only because of some unique marketing ploy & not because of the art, yet they achieve world recognition - doesn't mean they are great. Fifty Shades can be seen as a romance novel - for all intent & purposes - but it garnered attention because it is far, far more risqué than others. Does this make it better? I don't know because I have not read that or others similar. Either way....it simply struck the attention of the media & women readers all over the place - it'll redefine that genre, but it's popularity could make it harder for others to show credibility. There can be great works found in art forms that are considered trash, but they usually won't get too much appreciation from the actual art work. Looking at wrestling, there is a science to it - it's also an art - but it would never be accepted as such. Furniture building by hand is an art, but there are only a few considered to truly be 'artist' when making furniture. **Creativity or the belief of such, makes a huge difference in recognizing masterpieces. No one wants a rehash to be considered great. There are people painting flawlessly today, that make something in a style of classical artists & they are worthless. The only way they can gain attention as truly great, is if it's passed off as an unfound piece from this or that dead artist. Even using the same type of brush stroke can make an artist's work empty & meaningless, even if it is great. I think that may best explain why romance novels are considered junk - because it isn't art...it's $5.99 on a shelf.I disagree with Tolstoy as well, but it was a great example of an achieving their desires. Excellent post J.  |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 11:44:39 GMT -5
"Can an entire artform be "trash?" Yes. Tracy Emin's Bed. This is an individual work. Not the entire medium itself from it's origins to present day. Great joke though. |
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Post by CrossRhodes on Mar 23, 2014 11:51:41 GMT -5
"Can an entire artform be "trash?" Yes. Tracy Emin's Bed. This is an individual work. Not the entire medium itself from it's origins to present day. Great joke though. An individual work that proves installation art as an entire art form is trash. |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 11:52:48 GMT -5
This is an individual work. Not the entire medium itself from it's origins to present day. Great joke though. An individual work that proves installation art as an entire art form is trash. How so? |
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Post by l on Mar 23, 2014 12:02:53 GMT -5
No. An entire artform cannot be trash. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Art is not a concrete term. At it's core we rely on our own perceptions of what is art and thus we have different tastes and consider art to be different things. Because you do not appreciate romance novels does not make them less of an art just as some people do not appreciate abstract paintings. However as with most things, art is a spectrum.
[-----------------------------------------]
Bad virtuosic masterpiece
Just because it is not some masterpiece does not mean it is not art. Perhaps a lower status or form but art no less.
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Post by CrossRhodes on Mar 23, 2014 12:51:22 GMT -5
No. An entire artform cannot be trash . Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Art is not a concrete term. At it's core we rely on our own perceptions of what is art and thus we have different tastes and consider art to be different things. Because you do not appreciate romance novels does not make them less of an art just as some people do not appreciate abstract paintings. However as with most things, art is a spectrum. [-----------------------------------------] Bad virtuosic masterpiece Just because it is not some masterpiece does not mean it is not art. Perhaps a lower status or form but art no less. Exactly which is why I see trash. End of discussion! ^-^ |
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Post by CrossRhodes on Mar 23, 2014 13:01:14 GMT -5
An individual work that proves installation art as an entire art form is trash. How so? Just because I say my laundry basket is a work of art doesn't validate my laundry basket as a work of art. When anybody can claim anything they do as art then where is the spectrum, there is no validity. Next your gonna tell me every selfie on instagram is a work of art (maybe with a little Photoshop.) Every tweet on Twitter a literary masterpiece?! Every like on Facebook a profound philosophical declaration... I say bullcrap to pretentiousness. |
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Post by ahunter8056 on Mar 23, 2014 16:01:01 GMT -5
I'm just wondering, why do you have so much time on your hands?
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 19:57:19 GMT -5
Just because I say my laundry basket is a work of art doesn't validate my laundry basket as a work of art. When anybody can claim anything they do as art then where is the spectrum, there is no validity. Next your gonna tell me every selfie on instagram is a work of art (maybe with a little Photoshop.) Every tweet on Twitter a literary masterpiece?! Every like on Facebook a profound philosophical declaration... I say bullcrap to pretentiousness. There's nothing pretentious about someone slaving for years to master a written language until they dominate it so well, that they transform the language as the following generations would've known it, if not for that one person. There's nothing pretentious out of genuinely wanting to create meaningful works. There has to be a spectrum. That's why I've created various threads trying to discuss the matter. |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 20:02:57 GMT -5
I'm just wondering, why do you have so much time on your hands? I don't. I just write my thoughts the moment they reveal themselves. What gave you such an impression? |
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Post by speaktomeworriers on Mar 23, 2014 20:03:22 GMT -5
I like peanut butter
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 20:35:25 GMT -5
Likewise! I actually had a REESE'S jumbo Easter egg today. Now Culinary art, THAT'S a paradoxical concept when it comes to determining the spectrum. Way to beat me to the punch! I actually met Demolition Ax when he worked as the Masked Superstar at an Indy show I intended as a 13 year old full of blind love wrestling. He walked past me as he was leaving. He stopped dead in his tracks as a fat, pasty child spouted off "Wow, The Masked Superstar! What was wrestling Andre like?" I only knew this from the DVD WWE produced of various Andre matches that year, but I was still impressed beyond words that someone tough enough to survive the greatest giant in wrestling history, was tough enough to still be wrestling over 20 years later. A bit of a romanticization, but it was still awesome to meet such a traveled veteran. |
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Post by speaktomeworriers on Mar 23, 2014 21:16:22 GMT -5
Likewise! I actually had a REESE'S jumbo Easter egg today. Now Culinary art, THAT'S a paradoxical concept when it comes to determining the spectrum. Way to beat me to the punch! I actually met Demolition Ax when he worked as the Masked Superstar at an Indy show I intended as a 13 year old full of blind love wrestling. He walked past me as he was leaving. He stopped dead in his tracks as a fat, pasty child spouted off "Wow, The Masked Superstar! What was wrestling Andre like?" I only knew this from the DVD WWE produced of various Andre matches that year, but I was still impressed beyond words that someone tough enough to survive the greatest giant in wrestling history, was tough enough to still be wrestling over 20 years later. A bit of a romanticization, but it was still awesome to meet such a traveled veteran. Thx for that...Now my head hurts |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 23, 2014 21:51:49 GMT -5
Likewise! I actually had a REESE'S jumbo Easter egg today. Now Culinary art, THAT'S a paradoxical concept when it comes to determining the spectrum. Way to beat me to the punch! I actually met Demolition Ax when he worked as the Masked Superstar at an Indy show I intended as a 13 year old full of blind love wrestling. He walked past me as he was leaving. He stopped dead in his tracks as a fat, pasty child spouted off "Wow, The Masked Superstar! What was wrestling Andre like?" I only knew this from the DVD WWE produced of various Andre matches that year, but I was still impressed beyond words that someone tough enough to survive the greatest giant in wrestling history, was tough enough to still be wrestling over 20 years later. A bit of a romanticization, but it was still awesome to meet such a traveled veteran. Thx for that...Now my head hurts I also just recognized your avatar is a humor photo of Demolition's heads pasted on the bodies of the Road Warriors' bodies. Cursed mobile device. |
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Post by speaktomeworriers on Mar 24, 2014 1:12:04 GMT -5
Thx for that...Now my head hurts I also just recognized your avatar is a humor photo of Demolition's heads pasted on the bodies of the Road Warriors' bodies. Cursed mobile device. It's not Humor Photo...I call It "Portraits of Past"...Some would say its Trash though |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Mar 24, 2014 1:36:11 GMT -5
I also just recognized your avatar is a humor photo of Demolition's heads pasted on the bodies of the Road Warriors' bodies. Cursed mobile device. It's not Humor Photo...I call It "Portraits of Past"...Some would say its Trash though I know that's a joke, but I can't remember for the life of me just how I'm supposed to respond to those things... I guess it'll hit me later. |
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Post by Mox on Mar 24, 2014 2:13:42 GMT -5
Art forms commonly considered trashy are often commonly enjoyed. Whether someone is a literary snob that finds romance novels trashy, a sports snob that thinks wrestling is stupid, or an art collector who looks down on comics, the owness is on the snob. It has nothing to do with the art. It has everything to do with the snob. Porn is a good example. It's commonly enjoyed but even more commonly denied. Just because art or an entire art form is commonly publicly denied, doesn't mean it isn't art. It means maybe this has more to do with ego than the question of whether or not something is art or junk. And yes I do think selfies, laundry baskets, porn, wrestling and romance novels are art, technically. That seems clear to me. That it isn't to someone else is on them. Dare I say it's almost a "blaming the victim" situation. It's not the romance novel's fault that some book snob doesn't think it's good enough.
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