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Post by Jonathan Karate on Aug 20, 2014 13:17:46 GMT -5
So I know that Shelton Benjamin is an internet darling and is my brother's favorite wrestler, but do people really believe that he should've been a World Champion? Same goes for John Morrison? Dude was over as two times in his career. He was HUGE coming off the win over Triple H. He lacked charisma at the time so it was understandable that he was only a mid-card talent at the time. But as the Gold Standard on Smack down and ECW he could have very well been a main eventer and deserved it as well. I seem to remember a fantastic match between he and Taker during that time. At least I'm pretty sure I do. And Tatanka was better in ring wise Anvil but his conditioning was horrible. He legit looked like he was going to have a heart attack at points.
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Hem-Ridge
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Joined on: Nov 18, 2011 13:27:06 GMT -5
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Post by Hem-Ridge on Aug 20, 2014 14:00:11 GMT -5
-Owen Hart -Raven, I think in both WCW & WWE. I remember hearing he had enough of the poor booking in WCW & quit to go to ECW for a little bit, before heading to the WWE, shame what happened there as well. -Bret Hart in WCW -Mike Awesome in both WCW & WWE -Vader in WWE -Bam Bam Bigelow -Lex Luger, In a sense. I'm kind of surprised he never won a title in the WWE
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Post by johnnyb on Aug 20, 2014 14:23:56 GMT -5
Easily Jake "The Snake" Roberts... Dude could have been top ten all time talents in the business and just oozed awesomeness. Unparalleled in-ring psychology and second to none on the mic. If he could have stayed clean and not let drugs and alcohol ruin his life and career, there's no question in my mind that anyone's list of the best of the best professional wrestlers of all time would have to include Jake Roberts. I might have said the same about Scott Hall as well, but once he jumped to WCW, he was never going to allowed to outshine the like of Nash, Flair, Hogan, Savage, and the rest of that crew, even if he would have stayed clean. Had he stayed clean and not left WWE, Razor Ramon would be a much more prominent name in the annuls of wrestling history. Eh, pretty sure even if he'd gotten multiple World title reigns, it wouldn't top him being the linchpin in the biggest angle in the history of wrestling. I totally agree that Hall is one of the most creative, talented guys in history though.
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Post by johnnyb on Aug 20, 2014 14:25:50 GMT -5
So I know that Shelton Benjamin is an internet darling and is my brother's favorite wrestler, but do people really believe that he should've been a World Champion? Same goes for John Morrison? Dude was over as two times in his career. He was HUGE coming off the win over Triple H. He lacked charisma at the time so it was understandable that he was only a mid-card talent at the time. But as the Gold Standard on Smack down and ECW he could have very well been a main eventer and deserved it as well. I seem to remember a fantastic match between he and Taker during that time. At least I'm pretty sure I do. And Tatanka was better in ring wise Anvil but his conditioning was horrible. He legit looked like he was going to have a heart attack at points. Shelton was pretty bad on the mic, but crowds really responded to him in the ring. I'm not saying he should have been World champion, or that he even should have been in multiple main events. But if he was, I think he would have been very successful.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 14:31:07 GMT -5
Owen
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Post by Evil Abed on Aug 20, 2014 14:52:34 GMT -5
Wouldn't put Angle on that list thats for sure, I think they got the majority out of Angle that Kurt had to give.
My list may be a bit strange but I list it by certain years where I think mistakes were made and opportunities were missed on some people.
2001/2002 - Rob Van Dam
The guy was the only one in the Alliance that got over huge during the invasion and completely overshadowed guys that should have been above him such as Booker and DDP. RVD should have gotten a run with the WCW or WWF Title either in late 2001 or Early/Mid 2002. The guy was main event and putting on the best Raw main event matches for months (RVD/Eddie Ladder Match, RVD/Brock, RVD/Taker Undisputed Title, RVD/HBK World Title) The guy was white hot until early 2003 where it seemed like they gave up on him and decided to promote fossils from WCW in the form of Goldberg, Nash, and Steiner. After that RVD never had the same momentum imo. And sadly regarded mostly as a tag team wrestler (Kane, Rey) for 2003 - 2005
Late 2005/Early 2006 Randy Orton
The guy was the biggest heel on Smackdown from Sept of 2005 through April of 2006. At some point I think he should have taken the title from Batista in late 2005 (injury or no injury). There were much more guys for Orton to defend the title against as a heel instead of Batista during that time frame. (Booker/Benoit/Rey/Taker/Hardy) Batista had already feuded with JBL and all that was left for him besides Orton was Henry which thank god we were spared from (twice). Orton should have been the guy carrying the World Title into Wrestlemania 22, and could have easily defended against Rey and Angle if they decided to go that route. Note - I absolutely loved Angle's 2006 reign but think if it were under different circumstances (Eddies Death, Rey being pushed because of Eddies Death, Batista injury) that Orton could have easily solidified his main event spot by having a successful World Title reign from Nov. 2005 - Mar 2006.
2010 - Edge
The guy came back from injury at the Rumble and got one of the biggest pops in history. Edge was another guy that was white hot heading into Wrestlemania and should have easily defeated Chris Jericho for the World Title at Wrestlemania 26. Instead they kill Edge's momentum, give the World Title to Jack Swagger (who up until Wrestlemania wasn't probably even in anyones top 5 to win the MITB match, and who proceeds to have one of the most forgettable title reigns of all time, second only to Miz and the WWE Title in 2011) and Edge proceeds to take a back seat to Sheamus, Cena, Orton, Nexus and others on Raw throughout 2010. Edge should have been carrying SD through the majority of 2010 where he could have had mega feuds with guys like Rey, Punk, Christian, Taker, etc...
2011 - Alex Riley
The pops that this random nobody just weeks before as the Miz's assistant was getting once he turned face was unbelievable. This guy had so much potential to be if nothing else a solid IC/US Title contender and add a fresh face to the mix. I still believe to this day that Riley turning on Miz was designed to be a win at Capitol Punishment in Miz's favor, however had to be changed once Riley started getting over huge. I don't think WWE expected to see Riley get over so quickly and in turn had no idea what to do with him once the feud with Miz was over. It's a damn shame that he's faded into being a network analyst on tv when he could have been a huge star. Also f'ed up if true that John Cena cost him his spot, stuff like that should not matter when guys are getting reactions like that from the crowd.
2013 - Dolph Ziggler
When Dolph cashed in MITB as a heel and won the World Title from Del Rio, that was one of the loudest and longest ovations that I think I have ever heard on TV. If his reign was truly cut short because of Jack Swagger and a concussion, that is absolutely appauling. When you have the talent of a young Shawn Michaels, the microphone skills to back it up, and the look and crowd reaction of a main event player, then you should not be losing week after week to guys like Alberto Del Rio. This guy is the future of the business along with guys like Cesaro and Barrett and I don't get why they can't pull the trigger on any of them. Instead John Cena needs to have 15 title reigns to keep the company rolling. Its ridiculous how good these guys are and how WWE just flat out refuses to use these guys properly.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on Aug 20, 2014 14:56:15 GMT -5
Easily Jake "The Snake" Roberts... Dude could have been top ten all time talents in the business and just oozed awesomeness. Unparalleled in-ring psychology and second to none on the mic. If he could have stayed clean and not let drugs and alcohol ruin his life and career, there's no question in my mind that anyone's list of the best of the best professional wrestlers of all time would have to include Jake Roberts. I might have said the same about Scott Hall as well, but once he jumped to WCW, he was never going to allowed to outshine the like of Nash, Flair, Hogan, Savage, and the rest of that crew, even if he would have stayed clean. Had he stayed clean and not left WWE, Razor Ramon would be a much more prominent name in the annuls of wrestling history. Eh, pretty sure even if he'd gotten multiple World title reigns, it wouldn't top him being the linchpin in the biggest angle in the history of wrestling. I totally agree that Hall is one of the most creative, talented guys in history though. I never understood the mid-card stink on Hall. Its almost like he was perfectly fine with being nothing more then a mid-card guy as well which is odd. He was the best all around in the original NWO and is always in my top 2 or 3 of guys that should have been world champion.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on Aug 20, 2014 14:58:03 GMT -5
Dude was over as two times in his career. He was HUGE coming off the win over Triple H. He lacked charisma at the time so it was understandable that he was only a mid-card talent at the time. But as the Gold Standard on Smack down and ECW he could have very well been a main eventer and deserved it as well. I seem to remember a fantastic match between he and Taker during that time. At least I'm pretty sure I do. And Tatanka was better in ring wise Anvil but his conditioning was horrible. He legit looked like he was going to have a heart attack at points. Shelton was pretty bad on the mic, but crowds really responded to him in the ring. I'm not saying he should have been World champion, or that he even should have been in multiple main events. But if he was, I think he would have been very successful. He found his charisma as the gold standard in my opinion. He was cocky and brash but you believed everything he said. He played the cocky heel very well.
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Post by Roman Bellic on Aug 20, 2014 15:00:57 GMT -5
Drew Mcintyre: they built him up as the next big thing considering Mr. McMahon was behind him as the Chosen One
literally had the "it" factor that good heels have: Good theme and unforgettable look and being built and hyped by Mr. McMahon makes you want to see him excel
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Post by johnnyb on Aug 20, 2014 15:04:26 GMT -5
Eh, pretty sure even if he'd gotten multiple World title reigns, it wouldn't top him being the linchpin in the biggest angle in the history of wrestling. I totally agree that Hall is one of the most creative, talented guys in history though. I never understood the mid-card stink on Hall. Its almost like he was perfectly fine with being nothing more then a mid-card guy as well which is odd. He was the best all around in the original NWO and is always in my top 2 or 3 of guys that should have been world champion. Honestly, for all of the stories about Hall being a headache backstage, I think part of the reason that he never went to the top was that he was so amenable to playing his role. You hear a lot of stories about Hogan, Nash, Flair, and guys like that politicking for themselves to be on top for as long as possible, but Hall never really seemed to have any problem doing jobs. I think if he really would have put pressure on the bookers back in late-90s WCW, he could have gotten the belt. But it seemed like he was perfectly content just being really ing cool and putting guys over. And for me, he was the nWo because he was always the coolest guy on TV (as hard as Nash and especially Hogan tried, I never really thought either of those guys was cool) and the one that made the whole angle work because he didn't mind being the guy in the group that talked a huge game but pretty much always got beat. Of all of the nWo headliners, he was basically the only guy that never buried anyone.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on Aug 20, 2014 15:23:31 GMT -5
I never understood the mid-card stink on Hall. Its almost like he was perfectly fine with being nothing more then a mid-card guy as well which is odd. He was the best all around in the original NWO and is always in my top 2 or 3 of guys that should have been world champion. Honestly, for all of the stories about Hall being a headache backstage, I think part of the reason that he never went to the top was that he was so amenable to playing his role. You hear a lot of stories about Hogan, Nash, Flair, and guys like that politicking for themselves to be on top for as long as possible, but Hall never really seemed to have any problem doing jobs. I think if he really would have put pressure on the bookers back in late-90s WCW, he could have gotten the belt. But it seemed like he was perfectly content just being really ing cool and putting guys over. And for me, he was the nWo because he was always the coolest guy on TV (as hard as Nash and especially Hogan tried, I never really thought either of those guys was cool) and the one that made the whole angle work because he didn't mind being the guy in the group that talked a huge game but pretty much always got beat. Of all of the nWo headliners, he was basically the only guy that never buried anyone. Couldnt have said any of this better. Although as a kid I don't remember anyone not liking Nash. Weather he was Diesel or Nash and heel or face it didn't matter. Me and the kids I hung out with were always HUGE Nash fans. He and Hall had a vibe like no other in the 90's. It was basically impossible to hate them as characters. But that is putting their backstage BS weather it be Nash's politicing or Hall's "partying" aside. I just remember it being impossible to not be drawn into them.
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Post by Chicago on Aug 20, 2014 15:38:42 GMT -5
"Dr. Death" Steve Williams in 1998-99 WWF - I'm far from being well-versed on Steve Williams' career, in fact I've probably only seen a handful of his matches, but even I know wasted talent when I see it lying on the canvas at the hands of Bart Gunn.
Vader in 1996-98 WWF - He deserved better, but Vader's reputation preceded him and spelled doom for his career in WWF. Injuries also took their toll on a man who legitimately could have dominated the competition were it not for his detractors.
Hakushi in 1994-96 WWF - A standout of the WWF's undercard during The New Generation, Hakushi had the makings of an upper mid-card talent without the support system to make it happen.
Mr. Perfect in 1993-96 WWF - A sizable chunk of Hennig's career was wasted due to back injuries, but even before that in 1993 he was used to put over Lex Luger, Bret Hart, and Shawn Michaels. It was the dawning of a "new" era, and unfortunately Mr. Perfect had become old hat.
"Macho Man" Randy Savage in 1993-94 WWF - Re: Mr. Perfect.
These are just a few examples that come to mind for me.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Aug 20, 2014 16:05:59 GMT -5
Wouldn't put Angle on that list thats for sure, I think they got the majority out of Angle that Kurt had to give. My list may be a bit strange but I list it by certain years where I think mistakes were made and opportunities were missed on some people. 2001/2002 - Rob Van DamThe guy was the only one in the Alliance that got over huge during the invasion and completely overshadowed guys that should have been above him such as Booker and DDP. RVD should have gotten a run with the WCW or WWF Title either in late 2001 or Early/Mid 2002. The guy was main event and putting on the best Raw main event matches for months (RVD/Eddie Ladder Match, RVD/Brock, RVD/Taker Undisputed Title, RVD/HBK World Title) The guy was white hot until early 2003 where it seemed like they gave up on him and decided to promote fossils from WCW in the form of Goldberg, Nash, and Steiner. After that RVD never had the same momentum imo. And sadly regarded mostly as a tag team wrestler (Kane, Rey) for 2003 - 2005 Late 2005/Early 2006 Randy OrtonThe guy was the biggest heel on Smackdown from Sept of 2005 through April of 2006. At some point I think he should have taken the title from Batista in late 2005 (injury or no injury). There were much more guys for Orton to defend the title against as a heel instead of Batista during that time frame. (Booker/Benoit/Rey/Taker/Hardy) Batista had already feuded with JBL and all that was left for him besides Orton was Henry which thank god we were spared from (twice). Orton should have been the guy carrying the World Title into Wrestlemania 22, and could have easily defended against Rey and Angle if they decided to go that route. Note - I absolutely loved Angle's 2006 reign but think if it were under different circumstances (Eddies Death, Rey being pushed because of Eddies Death, Batista injury) that Orton could have easily solidified his main event spot by having a successful World Title reign from Nov. 2005 - Mar 2006. 2010 - EdgeThe guy came back from injury at the Rumble and got one of the biggest pops in history. Edge was another guy that was white hot heading into Wrestlemania and should have easily defeated Chris Jericho for the World Title at Wrestlemania 26. Instead they kill Edge's momentum, give the World Title to Jack Swagger (who up until Wrestlemania wasn't probably even in anyones top 5 to win the MITB match, and who proceeds to have one of the most forgettable title reigns of all time, second only to Miz and the WWE Title in 2011) and Edge proceeds to take a back seat to Sheamus, Cena, Orton, Nexus and others on Raw throughout 2010. Edge should have been carrying SD through the majority of 2010 where he could have had mega feuds with guys like Rey, Punk, Christian, Taker, etc... 2011 - Alex RileyThe pops that this random nobody just weeks before as the Miz's assistant was getting once he turned face was unbelievable. This guy had so much potential to be if nothing else a solid IC/US Title contender and add a fresh face to the mix. I still believe to this day that Riley turning on Miz was designed to be a win at Capitol Punishment in Miz's favor, however had to be changed once Riley started getting over huge. I don't think WWE expected to see Riley get over so quickly and in turn had no idea what to do with him once the feud with Miz was over. It's a damn shame that he's faded into being a network analyst on tv when he could have been a huge star. Also f'ed up if true that John Cena cost him his spot, stuff like that should not matter when guys are getting reactions like that from the crowd. 2013 - Dolph Ziggler When Dolph cashed in MITB as a heel and won the World Title from Del Rio, that was one of the loudest and longest ovations that I think I have ever heard on TV. If his reign was truly cut short because of Jack Swagger and a concussion, that is absolutely appauling. When you have the talent of a young Shawn Michaels, the microphone skills to back it up, and the look and crowd reaction of a main event player, then you should not be losing week after week to guys like Alberto Del Rio. This guy is the future of the business along with guys like Cesaro and Barrett and I don't get why they can't pull the trigger on any of them. Instead John Cena needs to have 15 title reigns to keep the company rolling. Its ridiculous how good these guys are and how WWE just flat out refuses to use these guys properly. I agree with all of this. Very well put.
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Post by Jonathan Karate on Aug 20, 2014 16:27:56 GMT -5
Wouldn't put Angle on that list thats for sure, I think they got the majority out of Angle that Kurt had to give. My list may be a bit strange but I list it by certain years where I think mistakes were made and opportunities were missed on some people. 2001/2002 - Rob Van DamThe guy was the only one in the Alliance that got over huge during the invasion and completely overshadowed guys that should have been above him such as Booker and DDP. RVD should have gotten a run with the WCW or WWF Title either in late 2001 or Early/Mid 2002. The guy was main event and putting on the best Raw main event matches for months (RVD/Eddie Ladder Match, RVD/Brock, RVD/Taker Undisputed Title, RVD/HBK World Title) The guy was white hot until early 2003 where it seemed like they gave up on him and decided to promote fossils from WCW in the form of Goldberg, Nash, and Steiner. After that RVD never had the same momentum imo. And sadly regarded mostly as a tag team wrestler (Kane, Rey) for 2003 - 2005 Late 2005/Early 2006 Randy OrtonThe guy was the biggest heel on Smackdown from Sept of 2005 through April of 2006. At some point I think he should have taken the title from Batista in late 2005 (injury or no injury). There were much more guys for Orton to defend the title against as a heel instead of Batista during that time frame. (Booker/Benoit/Rey/Taker/Hardy) Batista had already feuded with JBL and all that was left for him besides Orton was Henry which thank god we were spared from (twice). Orton should have been the guy carrying the World Title into Wrestlemania 22, and could have easily defended against Rey and Angle if they decided to go that route. Note - I absolutely loved Angle's 2006 reign but think if it were under different circumstances (Eddies Death, Rey being pushed because of Eddies Death, Batista injury) that Orton could have easily solidified his main event spot by having a successful World Title reign from Nov. 2005 - Mar 2006. 2010 - EdgeThe guy came back from injury at the Rumble and got one of the biggest pops in history. Edge was another guy that was white hot heading into Wrestlemania and should have easily defeated Chris Jericho for the World Title at Wrestlemania 26. Instead they kill Edge's momentum, give the World Title to Jack Swagger (who up until Wrestlemania wasn't probably even in anyones top 5 to win the MITB match, and who proceeds to have one of the most forgettable title reigns of all time, second only to Miz and the WWE Title in 2011) and Edge proceeds to take a back seat to Sheamus, Cena, Orton, Nexus and others on Raw throughout 2010. Edge should have been carrying SD through the majority of 2010 where he could have had mega feuds with guys like Rey, Punk, Christian, Taker, etc... 2011 - Alex RileyThe pops that this random nobody just weeks before as the Miz's assistant was getting once he turned face was unbelievable. This guy had so much potential to be if nothing else a solid IC/US Title contender and add a fresh face to the mix. I still believe to this day that Riley turning on Miz was designed to be a win at Capitol Punishment in Miz's favor, however had to be changed once Riley started getting over huge. I don't think WWE expected to see Riley get over so quickly and in turn had no idea what to do with him once the feud with Miz was over. It's a damn shame that he's faded into being a network analyst on tv when he could have been a huge star. Also f'ed up if true that John Cena cost him his spot, stuff like that should not matter when guys are getting reactions like that from the crowd. 2013 - Dolph Ziggler When Dolph cashed in MITB as a heel and won the World Title from Del Rio, that was one of the loudest and longest ovations that I think I have ever heard on TV. If his reign was truly cut short because of Jack Swagger and a concussion, that is absolutely appauling. When you have the talent of a young Shawn Michaels, the microphone skills to back it up, and the look and crowd reaction of a main event player, then you should not be losing week after week to guys like Alberto Del Rio. This guy is the future of the business along with guys like Cesaro and Barrett and I don't get why they can't pull the trigger on any of them. Instead John Cena needs to have 15 title reigns to keep the company rolling. Its ridiculous how good these guys are and how WWE just flat out refuses to use these guys properly. I'm so dissapointed we didn't really get to see that Orton/Edge feud play out in 2010. I thought that was going to be great and it basically got dropped. I wouldn't even have remembered it if it wasn't for the Nexus debut Raw episode being shown on the network last week.
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Hem-Ridge
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Joined on: Nov 18, 2011 13:27:06 GMT -5
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Post by Hem-Ridge on Aug 20, 2014 16:47:50 GMT -5
"Dr. Death" Steve Williams in 1998-99 WWF - I'm far from being well-versed on Steve Williams' career, in fact I've probably only seen a handful of his matches, but even I know wasted talent when I see it lying on the canvas at the hands of Bart Gunn. Vader in 1996-98 WWF - He deserved better, but Vader's reputation preceded him and spelled doom for his career in WWF. Injuries also took their toll on a man who legitimately could have dominated the competition were it not for his detractors. Hakushi in 1994-96 WWF - A standout of the WWF's undercard during The New Generation, Hakushi had the makings of an upper mid-card talent without the support system to make it happen. Mr. Perfect in 1993-96 WWF - A sizable chunk of Hennig's career was wasted due to back injuries, but even before that in 1993 he was used to put over Lex Luger, Bret Hart, and Shawn Michaels. It was the dawning of a "new" era, and unfortunately Mr. Perfect had become old hat. "Macho Man" Randy Savage in 1993-94 WWF - Re: Mr. Perfect. These are just a few examples that come to mind for me. Oh man, I completely forgot about Hakushi, yeah that guy was awesome & I can't believe they wasted him & turned him into a Jobber, but then again this was '95 booking we're talking about, complete rubbish. First he puts on great matches with Bret & 123 Kid, then loses to Barry Horowitz? I mean c'mon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 9:06:03 GMT -5
I never understood the mid-card stink on Hall. Its almost like he was perfectly fine with being nothing more then a mid-card guy as well which is odd. He was the best all around in the original NWO and is always in my top 2 or 3 of guys that should have been world champion. Honestly, for all of the stories about Hall being a headache backstage, I think part of the reason that he never went to the top was that he was so amenable to playing his role. You hear a lot of stories about Hogan, Nash, Flair, and guys like that politicking for themselves to be on top for as long as possible, but Hall never really seemed to have any problem doing jobs. I think if he really would have put pressure on the bookers back in late-90s WCW, he could have gotten the belt. But it seemed like he was perfectly content just being really ing cool and putting guys over. And for me, he was the nWo because he was always the coolest guy on TV (as hard as Nash and especially Hogan tried, I never really thought either of those guys was cool) and the one that made the whole angle work because he didn't mind being the guy in the group that talked a huge game but pretty much always got beat. Of all of the nWo headliners, he was basically the only guy that never buried anyone. Agreed 100%. Great breakdown here man.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 9:11:47 GMT -5
ROSA MENDES AND JOY GIOVANNI
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 9:58:12 GMT -5
Scott Steiner in 2003 is another example.
never made Wrestlemania....and used all wrong against HHH after unfairly taking 100% of the blame for their stinky matches. Why Vince & his daughter insisted on booking Steiner the way they did when they KNEW he had drop foot is utterly confounding to me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 9:58:27 GMT -5
Scott Steiner in 2003 is another example.
never made Wrestlemania....and used all wrong against HHH after unfairly taking 100% of the blame for their stinky matches. Why Vince & his daughter insisted on booking Steiner the way they did when they KNEW he had drop foot is utterly confounding to me.
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Post by OmegaGaijin on Aug 21, 2014 10:08:04 GMT -5
Drew Mcintyre: they built him up as the next big thing considering Mr. McMahon was behind him as the Chosen One literally had the "it" factor that good heels have: Good theme and unforgettable look and being built and hyped by Mr. McMahon makes you want to see him excel I gotta disagree with that, Drew wishes he had the "it" factor but he didn't have anywhere near it. This is coming from a fellow Scotsman. Gotta say, this part of the board never fails to impress me with some of the knowledge displayed, some brilliant suggestions have been made. I dig that a someone pointed out the 'Dr' himself, Steve Williams (one of my all time favs). I think a missed opportunity was not bringing him into the WWF between 1993 to 1995. He would have fitted in perfectly into that era with Cornette as manager taking on top babyfaces as the Undertaker, Diesel, Bret & especially Lex.
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