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Post by rustyy on Sept 14, 2014 12:17:21 GMT -5
I thought you were using Meltzers stupid star ratings, that's why I said that. Because I don't swear by his opinion like most do. Lol Hunter fresh and exciting. Maybe the first match but after he had his arm "broken" that feud lost everything. And I'm staring to think you're in this to put Punk down, the cage match where H had Brock begging to stop and screaming and had to have Heyman help him was better than Brock/Punk? The story had every one in that arena on their feet, much better overall than every single Hunter/Brock match. And Punk was by far Lesnars best match since being back. Or let me guess, you think the Big Show match was better? Because Brock Smash! And I don't treat my opinions like facts, you can agree or not. I really don't care. And Goldberg/Hunter sucked too. Thanks to both of them. Meltzer's star ratings are stupid, yet you're saying a match is five stars? If the star ratings are stupid, why use them yourself? Lesnar vs. Cena, take your pick. Both better than the Punk match. Extreme Rules match had a better crowd, both matches told a better story. For someone who "doesn't treat his opinions like facts", you're pretty adamant that you're right here. "Punk was by far Lesnar's best match since being back", as if you're asserting that your opinion is right. I'm starting to think you're a biased CM Punk fan. I mean, I've been disagreeing with you from the start of our little discussion and you've done nothing but try to assert that Punk vs. Lesnar was some sort of all time classic match when clearly I'm not going to agree. The match was good, but not that good. It was Brock Smash~! with an opponent that is fun to watch get beat up, that's it. By the way, he had the rely on Heyman in the SummerSlam match as well, arguably in a more critical manner than he did in the cage with Hunter. That's a huge flaw with that match, but the precedent had already been set. Oh, and then there was the whole, "Or let me guess, you think the Big Show match was better?" thing. Yeah, you're not trying to act like your opinion is superior AT ALL. "AGREE WITH ME, OH WAIT YOU PROBABLY THINK THIS THING I THINK SUCKS IS GOOD HUH? REPLY SAYING YOU DO MAN, I'M SITTING RIGHT HERE WAITING TO SAY YOU'RE WRONG MOTHER ER BECAUSE MY OPINIONS AND STUFF". Jesus, I feel like I'm on Indy in 2007 when SEH would cry whenever someone said anything remotely negative about Tyler Black. No, MELTZERS star ratings are stupid, not star ratings. I rate matches myself. I enjoyed the Brock/Punk match a lot more than anything else, they both put their all in it and it turned out. I hated both Cena matches because it felt like a Goldberg squash against a random jobber. And at least in the Punk match Lesnar wasn't crying for help because he was so hurt. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, you are never going to see things the way I do.
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Post by johnnyb on Sept 14, 2014 14:29:49 GMT -5
I think a lot of times when wrestlers refer to match times, they usually include time for the hype video and intros. THAT would make Rock/Cena pretty close to 50 minutes.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 14, 2014 22:27:38 GMT -5
The truth about the situation is that Rock came back and proved he was bigger star than anyone in WWE at the time. The Rock didn't have to come back to prove he was a bigger star than anyone in WWE. He's one of the biggest movie stars in the world and one of the biggest stars from wrestling's last boom period. Everybody already knew he was a bigger star than anyone else in wrestling. That was why everybody was so disappointed when he came back and sucked. Lol. So silly. Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude.
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Post by rustyy on Sept 14, 2014 23:01:54 GMT -5
The Rock didn't have to come back to prove he was a bigger star than anyone in WWE. He's one of the biggest movie stars in the world and one of the biggest stars from wrestling's last boom period. Everybody already knew he was a bigger star than anyone else in wrestling. That was why everybody was so disappointed when he came back and sucked. Lol. So silly. Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude. Well, that post was filled with blind Cena hate...
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Sept 14, 2014 23:07:51 GMT -5
The Rock didn't have to come back to prove he was a bigger star than anyone in WWE. He's one of the biggest movie stars in the world and one of the biggest stars from wrestling's last boom period. Everybody already knew he was a bigger star than anyone else in wrestling. That was why everybody was so disappointed when he came back and sucked. Lol. So silly. Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude. So I'm one who knows and understands Rock's impact on the business. However goofy Cena was, Rock was cringeworthy with "cookiepuss" and lame duck insults like that. Cena isn't usually sloppy. Make no mistake, the shortcomings in the feud were due to the lack of chemistry between the two.
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Post by rustyy on Sept 14, 2014 23:12:48 GMT -5
Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude. So I'm one who knows and understands Rock's impact on the business. However goofy Cena was, Rock was cringeworthy with "cookiepuss" and lame duck insults like that. Cena isn't usually sloppy. Make no mistake, the shortcomings in the feud were due to the lack of chemistry between the two. And the fact Rock either can't go like he used to or was told to tone it down due to the PG rating. AE Rock>Cena every day of the week and I hate Rock's promos.
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Post by Mr Angry Cena on Sept 14, 2014 23:21:49 GMT -5
The Rock didn't have to come back to prove he was a bigger star than anyone in WWE. He's one of the biggest movie stars in the world and one of the biggest stars from wrestling's last boom period. Everybody already knew he was a bigger star than anyone else in wrestling. That was why everybody was so disappointed when he came back and sucked. Lol. So silly. Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 14, 2014 23:49:27 GMT -5
Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude. Well, that post was filled with blind Cena hate... Call it what you will, but I was against Cena ever becoming a main-eventer from the start. The bigger the spotlight, the more his flaws become problematic. He *might* have been something special had Vince tweaked his character and demanded that he fix his frantic, unfocused energy problems in the ring. But once his character became Vince's personal mission, his uber-push really hindered nearly 10 years of WWE main events. In his position, Cena should be the guy selling the PPV with his mic work alone and carrying just about anyone to 5-star classics. Instead, he's the centerpiece of one mundane program after another.
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Post by k5 on Sept 15, 2014 0:19:49 GMT -5
Well, that post was filled with blind Cena hate... Call it what you will, but I was against Cena ever becoming a main-eventer from the start. The bigger the spotlight, the more his flaws become problematic. He *might* have been something special had Vince tweaked his character and demanded that he fix his frantic, unfocused energy problems in the ring. But once his character became Vince's personal mission, his uber-push really hindered nearly 10 years of WWE main events. In his position, Cena should be the guy selling the PPV with his mic work alone and carrying just about anyone to 5-star classics. Instead, he's the centerpiece of one mundane program after another. so very true. and it comes down to opinion, but i'd actually put the entire punk/lesnar program on the same level of hhh/lesnar - mediocre.
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Post by rustyy on Sept 15, 2014 0:36:29 GMT -5
Well, that post was filled with blind Cena hate... Call it what you will, but I was against Cena ever becoming a main-eventer from the start. The bigger the spotlight, the more his flaws become problematic. He *might* have been something special had Vince tweaked his character and demanded that he fix his frantic, unfocused energy problems in the ring. But once his character became Vince's personal mission, his uber-push really hindered nearly 10 years of WWE main events. In his position, Cena should be the guy selling the PPV with his mic work alone and carrying just about anyone to 5-star classics. Instead, he's the centerpiece of one mundane program after another. Well, he makes WWE 100 million dollars annually so I think he draws just fine. He can't put on a classic but neither could Hogan.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 15, 2014 2:10:03 GMT -5
Call it what you will, but I was against Cena ever becoming a main-eventer from the start. The bigger the spotlight, the more his flaws become problematic. He *might* have been something special had Vince tweaked his character and demanded that he fix his frantic, unfocused energy problems in the ring. But once his character became Vince's personal mission, his uber-push really hindered nearly 10 years of WWE main events. In his position, Cena should be the guy selling the PPV with his mic work alone and carrying just about anyone to 5-star classics. Instead, he's the centerpiece of one mundane program after another. Well, he makes WWE 100 million dollars annually so I think he draws just fine. He can't put on a classic but neither could Hogan. WWE has experienced a drastic slide in TV ratings and overall revenue in the last 10 years or so. While there are numerous reasons for that, Cena is the face of the PG Era, where many veteran/adult fans have left or are dissatisfied with the product. Cena might be the most profitable of who is left, but that's hardly something to applaud when the company has been in a nosedive for so long.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Sept 15, 2014 4:23:54 GMT -5
Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude. It's so rare that blind Cena hate leads to delusion on such a high level. It's almost impressive the way you can ignore reality like that, it must make your world so strange and interesting. However, make no mistake, The Rock came back and was outclassed on every level. Not only by John Cena, but by this era's #2 guy as well. That clearly upsets you to the point of absurd denial, but it doesn't make it any less true. Any shortcomings in the feud were due to the great attitude era saviour being exposed as a lame duck, and the shortcomings in the matches were due to the two wrestlers having little physical chemistry, and one of them being so bulky ("IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU HAVE A WELLNESS POLICY!") and having such poor cardio that he got blown up and/or injured minutes into every singles match he had in his last run.
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Sept 15, 2014 5:11:05 GMT -5
Many new/younger fans didn't know the Rock's impact on the biz and didn't understand why the new champ didn't appear on every show. There was a generational disconnect that certain hurt the Rock with some fans. However, once he was face-to-face with Cena, it showcased the reason WWE has fallen so far in pop culture in the last 10 years. Cena was awkward and goofy, and it led to Rock completely overshadowing him. In the ring, Cena was his usual sloppy self and the somewhat rusty, middle-aged Rock was only able to carry the match to good, but not classic. However, make no mistake, any shortcomings in that feud were due to Cena's ineptitude. It's so rare that blind Cena hate leads to delusion on such a high level. It's almost impressive the way you can ignore reality like that, it must make your world so strange and interesting. However, make no mistake, The Rock came back and was outclassed on every level. Not only by John Cena, but by this era's #2 guy as well. That clearly upsets you to the point of absurd denial, but it doesn't make it any less true. Any shortcomings in the feud were due to the great attitude era saviour being exposed as a lame duck, and the shortcomings in the matches were due to the two wrestlers having little physical chemistry, and one of them being so bulky ("IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU HAVE A WELLNESS POLICY!") and having such poor cardio that he got blown up and/or injured minutes into every singles match he had in his last run. In the first 5 minutes of their WM28 match, Rock had already performed more interesting move sequences than Cena usually does in an entire match. He did a flip, kip up, arm drag, and a float-over cradle in one sequence alone--VERY IMPRESSIVE for a 280lb, middle-aged guy. He was quicker and more crisp than Cena. Moreover, despite his age and added muscle, I never saw Rock blow up. Granted, he and Cena were both sweating profusely by the end of the match, but they were performing in the humidity of Florida.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 6:02:13 GMT -5
Meltzer's star ratings are stupid, yet you're saying a match is five stars? If the star ratings are stupid, why use them yourself? Lesnar vs. Cena, take your pick. Both better than the Punk match. Extreme Rules match had a better crowd, both matches told a better story. For someone who "doesn't treat his opinions like facts", you're pretty adamant that you're right here. "Punk was by far Lesnar's best match since being back", as if you're asserting that your opinion is right. I'm starting to think you're a biased CM Punk fan. I mean, I've been disagreeing with you from the start of our little discussion and you've done nothing but try to assert that Punk vs. Lesnar was some sort of all time classic match when clearly I'm not going to agree. The match was good, but not that good. It was Brock Smash~! with an opponent that is fun to watch get beat up, that's it. By the way, he had the rely on Heyman in the SummerSlam match as well, arguably in a more critical manner than he did in the cage with Hunter. That's a huge flaw with that match, but the precedent had already been set. Oh, and then there was the whole, "Or let me guess, you think the Big Show match was better?" thing. Yeah, you're not trying to act like your opinion is superior AT ALL. "AGREE WITH ME, OH WAIT YOU PROBABLY THINK THIS THING I THINK SUCKS IS GOOD HUH? REPLY SAYING YOU DO MAN, I'M SITTING RIGHT HERE WAITING TO SAY YOU'RE WRONG MOTHER ER BECAUSE MY OPINIONS AND STUFF". Jesus, I feel like I'm on Indy in 2007 when SEH would cry whenever someone said anything remotely negative about Tyler Black. No, MELTZERS star ratings are stupid, not star ratings. I rate matches myself. I enjoyed the Brock/Punk match a lot more than anything else, they both put their all in it and it turned out. I hated both Cena matches because it felt like a Goldberg squash against a random jobber. And at least in the Punk match Lesnar wasn't crying for help because he was so hurt. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, you are never going to see things the way I do. And again acting like your opinion is superior...Jesus Christ get over yourself.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Sept 15, 2014 7:35:39 GMT -5
It's so rare that blind Cena hate leads to delusion on such a high level. It's almost impressive the way you can ignore reality like that, it must make your world so strange and interesting. However, make no mistake, The Rock came back and was outclassed on every level. Not only by John Cena, but by this era's #2 guy as well. That clearly upsets you to the point of absurd denial, but it doesn't make it any less true. Any shortcomings in the feud were due to the great attitude era saviour being exposed as a lame duck, and the shortcomings in the matches were due to the two wrestlers having little physical chemistry, and one of them being so bulky ("IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU HAVE A WELLNESS POLICY!") and having such poor cardio that he got blown up and/or injured minutes into every singles match he had in his last run. In the first 5 minutes of their WM28 match, Rock had already performed more interesting move sequences than Cena usually does in an entire match. He did a flip, kip up, arm drag, and a float-over cradle in one sequence alone--VERY IMPRESSIVE for a 280lb, middle-aged guy. He was quicker and more crisp than Cena. Moreover, despite his age and added muscle, I never saw Rock blow up. Granted, he and Cena were both sweating profusely by the end of the match, but they were performing in the humidity of Florida. It's pretty clear that you're never going to see this from another side and just look at it from the "OMG CENA SUX ROCKY AND THE ATTITUDE ERA ARE WAY COOLER! SUX IT!" perspective. Cena and Rock had little chemistry during their matches and Cena and Punk outclassed the Rock on the microphone. To say that John Cena is sloppy is rather absurd. The guy was the better performer in his Money in the Bank classic with CM Punk and, while he does have his flawed moments (like no selling the leg work at WrestleMania 23) the guy delivers on the big stage. Name me a main guy that didn't have flaws? Austin and Hogan did and your precious Rock sure as hell did. I could honestly probably name more really good Cena main event matches than Rock matches.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Sept 15, 2014 7:38:16 GMT -5
You people are too busy over analyzing things. Of which is not a good thing by all means. Ya'll need a cup of coffee. It does the body and mind good.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 7:45:02 GMT -5
In the first 5 minutes of their WM28 match, Rock had already performed more interesting move sequences than Cena usually does in an entire match. He did a flip, kip up, arm drag, and a float-over cradle in one sequence alone--VERY IMPRESSIVE for a 280lb, middle-aged guy. He was quicker and more crisp than Cena. Moreover, despite his age and added muscle, I never saw Rock blow up. Granted, he and Cena were both sweating profusely by the end of the match, but they were performing in the humidity of Florida. It's pretty clear that you're never going to see this from another side and just look at it from the "OMG CENA SUX ROCKY AND THE ATTITUDE ERA ARE WAY COOLER! SUX IT!" perspective. Cena and Rock had little chemistry during their matches and Cena and Punk outclassed the Rock on the microphone. To say that John Cena is sloppy is rather absurd. The guy was the better performer in his Money in the Bank classic with CM Punk and, while he does have his flawed moments (like no selling the leg work at WrestleMania 23) the guy delivers on the big stage. Name me a main guy that didn't have flaws? Austin and Hogan did and your precious Rock sure as hell did. I could honestly probably name more really good Cena main event matches than Rock matches. Not to be that guy, but Cena's obviously going to have more since he's been the top guy for far longer than Rock was.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Sept 15, 2014 7:49:21 GMT -5
It's pretty clear that you're never going to see this from another side and just look at it from the "OMG CENA SUX ROCKY AND THE ATTITUDE ERA ARE WAY COOLER! SUX IT!" perspective. Cena and Rock had little chemistry during their matches and Cena and Punk outclassed the Rock on the microphone. To say that John Cena is sloppy is rather absurd. The guy was the better performer in his Money in the Bank classic with CM Punk and, while he does have his flawed moments (like no selling the leg work at WrestleMania 23) the guy delivers on the big stage. Name me a main guy that didn't have flaws? Austin and Hogan did and your precious Rock sure as hell did. I could honestly probably name more really good Cena main event matches than Rock matches. Not to be that guy, but Cena's obviously going to have more since he's been the top guy for far longer than Rock was. I realized that after I posted it. I meant to add that you could take Rock's like, 1999-2003 and match it up with the best five years of Cena's run. I could be wrong but I think Cena would have a better list of matches.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2014 8:01:27 GMT -5
Not to be that guy, but Cena's obviously going to have more since he's been the top guy for far longer than Rock was. I realized that after I posted it. I meant to add that you could take Rock's like, 1999-2003 and match it up with the best five years of Cena's run. I could be wrong but I think Cena would have a better list of matches. I'm not sure about that. Cena was on fire in 2007 (I'd argue that year by itself was as good as any Rocky had) but past that I can't remember him having any other years where he didn't have numerous sub par matches to offset the great matches. I mean his 2005 isn't great, 2006 was good but not amazing, 2007 was his best year, 2008 was a mixed bag, 2009 was awful, 2010 was okay, 2011 had one of his best matches but also some of his worst, 2012 had the Brock match and the one Punk match but then there's the Kane matches and the Big Show feud, last year he had the Bryan match and the Punk match but then there's the Ryback feud and the matches with Del Rio and the TLC match with Orton. This year he's had some good stuff on RAW and SummerSlam was good, but I don't think I'd put this year on the level of Rocky in 2000 or 2001. Rock's 2000-2002 is as consistent as it gets whereas Cena's real big year was 2007 with every other year before/after having good stuff but also some real bland matches that kind of offset the great stuff. If you wanna compare individual years, Cena's 2007 beats any single year of Rock at the top. But if we're talking Cena's best five years vs. 99-03 Rock, I'd go for 2007, 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2013. I don't think that beats Rock's 1999-2003. Rock was consistently good (albeit not great) from 2000-2002 and generally had a higher level of opponents to work with. Cena's constantly been fed guys like JBL, Big Show, Del Rio and Miz and those matches never delivered anything that would help bolster the argument for Cena. I'm not even much of a fan of either guy, but I think if you want to compare five year spans, Rocky probably wins but I can see the argument for Cena winning as well. Cena's great stuff is really great but the bad stuff is really, really bad. Same can be said for Rocky. If you wanna go individual years, put Cena's 2007 up against Rocky's whole main event run and he wins. It's kind of fun how things change when it goes from comparing an individual year to entire spans.
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Post by BrIaNMeRcY on Sept 15, 2014 8:02:33 GMT -5
Not to be that guy, but Cena's obviously going to have more since he's been the top guy for far longer than Rock was. I realized that after I posted it. I meant to add that you could take Rock's like, 1999-2003 and match it up with the best five years of Cena's run. I could be wrong but I think Cena would have a better list of matches. Workrate was never a high priority during The Rock's run from 1998-2003. John Cena's matches are held in high regard because he had guys who were able to carry him to an outstanding match and make him look compelling. Say all you want about John Cena everybody, at least he stayed loyal to wrestling and not trying to make it in Hollywood. Even Ric Flair acknowledged that during his 2008 Hall of Fame speech. Internally, I feel Flair has more respect for Cena rather than The Rock.
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