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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Oct 30, 2014 11:59:41 GMT -5
There was never a time where it was fair to compare them solely on goals. First Messi was more central & had the team built around him (as well as being in a better team) whereas Ronaldo didn't - Ronaldo still doesn't have the team built around him like Messi did but this is probably the first calendar year where we can say with absolute certainty that Real minus Ronaldo is better than Barcelona minus Messi, wheras Barca without Messi was better than Real without Ronaldo for several years beforehand (and Argentina have always been better than Portugal); as well as this Ronaldo is more central now and more forward than Messi is. Anyone who compares them on solely goals without taking in external factors at any point in their careers is a mug, pure and simple. Goals are a massive factor, and often the defining factor, but never the only factor. Trouble is, Barcelona may of been a better Side for Messi, but Real Madrid would of been a better side for Ronaldo, even if on paper their Players wern't as good. Ronaldo's game was built around running into wide, open space, running at Players etc. Messi's was all about control in small, tight areas with quick engineering and movement. If Ronaldo was in the Barca side that Messi was he wouldn't of been anywhere near as good as Messi was at doing what he did, and vice versa. But they were both goalscorers, where Messi eclipsed Ronaldo's goal stats for years so you could compare the two Players. Now Ronaldo has maintained being a goalscorer whereas Messi has changed his Game to being a Playmaker. It's come to a time now though where it goes down to personal preference on what you prefer in a footballer. You can definitely appreciate the period we are in and how lucky we are to have them both playing now. Ronaldo is now the pinnacle definition of a modern day physical goalscoring machine, and Messi is a supremely intelligent natural creator. It's a beauty to watch them both at this point now. Barcelona were definitely a better side for Messi than Real were for Ronaldo for a long period though, mainly because Barca were built around Messi more and had better players. Real's gameplan definitely suited Ronaldo, but it wasn't built specifically around his talents in the same way. That's where Messi had a huge advantage and one of the key reasons why just comparing raw stats is unfair. We should definitely appreciate watching them both. I used to be bored of just 2 guys winning all the time vs. the early and mid 2000s where several players were at the top, but in recent years I've come to appreciate what's in front of me and the world much more. Like I said in another thread, if you ask me both of them are acceptable answers for the GOAT (along with Pele and Maradona). Amazing that we got both at the same time. |
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Post by Dan on Oct 30, 2014 12:13:28 GMT -5
Trouble is, Barcelona may of been a better Side for Messi, but Real Madrid would of been a better side for Ronaldo, even if on paper their Players wern't as good. Ronaldo's game was built around running into wide, open space, running at Players etc. Messi's was all about control in small, tight areas with quick engineering and movement. If Ronaldo was in the Barca side that Messi was he wouldn't of been anywhere near as good as Messi was at doing what he did, and vice versa. But they were both goalscorers, where Messi eclipsed Ronaldo's goal stats for years so you could compare the two Players. Now Ronaldo has maintained being a goalscorer whereas Messi has changed his Game to being a Playmaker. It's come to a time now though where it goes down to personal preference on what you prefer in a footballer. You can definitely appreciate the period we are in and how lucky we are to have them both playing now. Ronaldo is now the pinnacle definition of a modern day physical goalscoring machine, and Messi is a supremely intelligent natural creator. It's a beauty to watch them both at this point now. Barcelona were definitely a better side for Messi than Real were for Ronaldo for a long period though, mainly because Barca were built around Messi more and had better players. Real's gameplan definitely suited Ronaldo, but it wasn't built specifically around his talents in the same way. That's where Messi had a huge advantage and one of the key reasons why just comparing raw stats is unfair. We should definitely appreciate watching them both. I used to be bored of just 2 guys winning all the time vs. the early and mid 2000s where several players were at the top, but in recent years I've come to appreciate what's in front of me and the world much more. Like I said in another thread, if you ask me both of them are acceptable answers for the GOAT (along with Pele and Maradona). Amazing that we got both at the same time. I think they tended to of built it around Messi though as you generally could build a Team around his style of football. He is a baller, like Xavi, Iniesta and most of their Team were, and where Opposition would sit back deep, they could all link up and and play tight small passes around them, with constant off the ball little movements. On the contrast it was a bit harder to build a Side around one wide man, even if he is outrageous on the ball, as it's one dimensional and easier to defend against, if you get what I'm saying. So you can't really go with the argument that Messi was in a better team, as there is no way Ronaldo could of played in that Barca side, as he's not about reading things and moving and making space for others and quick passing. He's about storming into space and charging at Players, cutting in etc. Would of never been able to use his advantages with that Barca team's style of football. They could build it around Messi's Game, not Ronaldo's. Timing has played a factor now though if you analyse it, with that Barcelona Game eventually becoming readable and teams knowing how to play against it, along with them being burnt out. Madrid on the other hand can now thank Ancelotti who brought in creativity and a system that now gives Ronaldo more freedom. Yeah 100% agree with that last Statement. Definitely something we can tell the kids about. |
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Post by Hammersmith Hardman on Oct 30, 2014 14:02:50 GMT -5
Suarez had a mental September to about January imo but other than that not that consistent enough to warrant a place, plus with the 4 month ban I'm not that surprised they left him out even though the fact is of the incident rather than form.
Again, it's got to be Ronaldo winning it.
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Post by 0,Y on Jan 12, 2015 14:13:22 GMT -5
Pretty much a perfect Ballon d'Or other than David Luiz, Andres Iniesta and Thiago Silva being in the World XI.
Other than that everything makes sense. Ronaldo, Kessler, Löw, Kellermann all deserved it.
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Post by Dan on Jan 12, 2015 15:40:34 GMT -5
Absolutely comical that David Luiz and Thiago Silva got in that Team of the Year, not that it really matters anyway though, but still. How Godin didn't get in there is beyond me. Back four should of been Alaba/Marcelo/Luis, Godin, Ramos, Lahm, simple as. I also knew he wouldn't get it, but the fact that Simeone didn't get the Manager of the Year was also ludicrous. To win La Liga with the resources he had, be one minute away from beating Real Madrid in the Champions League Final, and to take tactics and details to another level and not win, deary me. Ronaldo rightly won again. Will be an interesting year ahead.
For me personally, XI of the Year would of been;
GK: Neuer
LB: Marcelo
CB: Godin
CB: Ramos
RB: Lahm
CM: Kroos
CM: Modric/Gabi
CM: Robben
LF: Cristiano Ronaldo
ST: Luis Suarez
RW: Lionel Messi
By the way, did anyone see Hodgson's votes? Mascherano, Neuer and Lahm. Is he having a laugh.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jan 12, 2015 15:41:51 GMT -5
David Luiz being in the World XI is surely the second biggest disgrace in Ballon D'Or history (Iniesta shouldn't be there either).
The biggest is the total lack of recognition for Atletico Madrid. Not one player in the World XI (Godin for Luiz surely and probably Koke for Iniesta too) and Simeone didn't get the Coach of the Year award despite near-unparalleled achievements with such a lack of resources. Low & Ancelotti's achievements were very impressive, but Simeone's were just unreal.
Glad Ronaldo got a deserved award at least.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jan 12, 2015 15:43:56 GMT -5
Absolutely comical that David Luiz and Thiago Silva got in that Team of the Year, not that it really matters anyway though, but still. How Godin didn't get in there is beyond me. Back four should of been Alaba/Marcelo/Luis, Godin, Ramos, Lahm, simple as. I also knew he wouldn't get it, but the fact that Simeone didn't get the Manager of the Year was also ludicrous. To win La Liga with the resources he had, be one minute away from beating Real Madrid in the Champions League Final, and to take tactics and details to another level and not win, deary me. Ronaldo rightly won again. Will be an interesting year ahead. For me personally, XI of the Year would of been; GK: Neuer LB: Marcelo CB: Godin CB: Ramos RB: Lahm CM: Kroos CM: Modric/Gabi CM: Robben LF: Cristiano Ronaldo ST: Luis Suarez RW: Lionel Messi By the way, did anyone see Hodgson's votes? Mascherano, Neuer and Lahm. Is he having a laugh. Agree with nearly all of that. I'd sneak Felipe Luis in over Marcelo if it weren't for Brazil in particular and Jose inexplicably ignoring him. |
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orton5ko
Superstar
The crow flies straight, a perfect line. On the Devil's Bed until you die
Joined on: Jan 27, 2014 19:36:30 GMT -5
Posts: 754 
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Post by orton5ko on Jan 12, 2015 15:51:50 GMT -5
Shocked that David Luiz was in, thought godin was a shoe in to get in that TOTY, shocked to see no atletico players either after that fantastic season they had.
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Post by Himmy! on Jan 12, 2015 18:10:43 GMT -5
Ronaldo rightly won. That team and Hodgson's votes are well dodgy.
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Post by Brunt's Left Foot on Jan 12, 2015 18:44:11 GMT -5
Agree with you guys.
Ronaldo was the right choice. David Luiz in the World XI is bollocks though, Iniesta and Silva shouldn't be in either. Simeone should have won COTY but Low winning isn't a disgrace or anything.
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Post by 0,Y on Jan 13, 2015 5:16:49 GMT -5
Luiz, Silva, Iniesta out Godin, Boateng and Modric in. Suarez rightfully not in, he had a great season but he's a  ing disrespectful moron. Neuer only being 3rd behind Messi is a joke too. This year Messi was just nominated for name-value. edit: Also in my opinion Löw deserved his award too. Surely Simeone had a fantastic season and achieved a lot but Löw won the World Cup which is no doubt the biggest Cup anybody can win. |
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Jan 13, 2015 12:14:42 GMT -5
Luiz, Silva, Iniesta out Godin, Boateng and Modric in. Suarez rightfully not in, he had a great season but he's a ing disrespectful moron. Neuer only being 3rd behind Messi is a joke too. This year Messi was just nominated for name-value. edit: Also in my opinion Löw deserved his award too. Surely Simeone had a fantastic season and achieved a lot but Löw won the World Cup which is no doubt the biggest Cup anybody can win. True, but Low won with the best team & squad. Simeone won the league & was a minute away from winning CL with less than 1/10 of his competitors resources. Low deserves recognition but Simeone deserves every cosching award this year. |
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Post by 0,Y on Jan 13, 2015 15:04:50 GMT -5
Luiz, Silva, Iniesta out Godin, Boateng and Modric in. Suarez rightfully not in, he had a great season but he's a ing disrespectful moron. Neuer only being 3rd behind Messi is a joke too. This year Messi was just nominated for name-value. edit: Also in my opinion Löw deserved his award too. Surely Simeone had a fantastic season and achieved a lot but Löw won the World Cup which is no doubt the biggest Cup anybody can win. True, but Low won with the best team & squad. Simeone won the league & was a minute away from winning CL with less than 1/10 of his competitors resources. Low deserves recognition but Simeone deserves every cosching award this year. We'll have to agree to disagree then. |
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Post by Dan on Jan 13, 2015 15:16:14 GMT -5
Neuer only being 3rd behind Messi is a joke too. This year Messi was just nominated for name-value. To be fair, everybody has said what a bad year Messi has had, but he still ended up with only 3 goals less than Ronaldo did in 2014 for Club and Country, so is a bit hard to say he shouldn't be in the Top 3. just goes to show the levels he can set. I'm expecting Bale to make the Top 3 next year. |
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Post by 0,Y on Jan 13, 2015 15:39:44 GMT -5
Neuer only being 3rd behind Messi is a joke too. This year Messi was just nominated for name-value. To be fair, everybody has said what a bad year Messi has had, but he still ended up with only 3 goals less than Ronaldo did in 2014 for Club and Country, so is a bit hard to say he shouldn't be in the Top 3. just goes to show the levels he can set. I'm expecting Bale to make the Top 3 next year. I'm not denying that he scored a ton of goals but I don't think he should've been in the top 3 this year. Robben and even di Maria deserved it more in my opinion. Messi was just in because he's Messi. |
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Post by Brunt's Left Foot on Jan 13, 2015 18:07:07 GMT -5
The amount of goals and assists Messi has had in 2014....he deserves to be in the Top 3. I don't know how anyone can say he doesn't.
Messi is being judged harshly because he didn't score 70+ goals in a year like he did a couple of years back. If someone else had those kind of stats, you'd be raving about him.
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