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Post by marino13 on Mar 13, 2015 21:39:07 GMT -5
This thread be like...
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Post by Robert69 on Mar 13, 2015 21:44:15 GMT -5
No, I get what you're saying, but you can't disagree that there are more than a few people who act like Roman Reigns' is going to steal their first born child. It's blown out of proportion for some people, and that's what he's saying here. It's a Production. "Did Brad Pitt deserve to play Achilles?" -- Gary Oldman is a better, more consistent actor. Should he have been Achilles instead? How about Denzel? RDJ? They're all reasonably 'better' actors. Some of which have been working longer. As I said, it's a reasonable argument. In 6 months, someone else will be champion, or challenging for the belt, and when Reigns/Ziggler headlines a PPV, people will be complaining that it's not Ambrose, or Bryan, etc. Some people are simply NEVER happy. It's scripted acting. It's make believe. It's a TV show. He's an actor; one of many. Whether or not he 'deserves' the WWEWHC is tantamount to arguing over who should have ended up with Buffy at the end of BtVS. I stick with Spike, but I understand arguments for Xander, and Angel. Hell, you could even make an argument for Faith. Just like Rollins, Ambrose, or Bryan. They're actors. I don't think thats exactly accurate because of the differences between acting, modeling, athletics and then wrestling. Wrestling is a hybrid bastard form sort of neither here nor there, part modeling, part acting, part athletics. Their product is also a live performance and a movie of the performance. Brad Pitt was the much better choice for Achilles as a model than Gary Oldman, Denzel and RDJ, WAY better. Brad Pitt is the perfect example of how movies are for models and the theater is for actors, he doesn't have to give a performance, it's little actions caught on film cobbled together, that is modeling work. This becomes painfully clear in Bresson movies, never used actors and his movies are 10x almost every single other movie. Malick shot a lot of his actors like models and some were pissed about it, like Plummer in the New World. In that case, Plummer has no idea what he's talking about and should just be grateful he gets to work with Malick. At a play, movie, or athletic event the audiences response has nothing to do with with how things play out, that is not the case with wrestling, and it's one of the big draws they have that they've become hostile towards. They trained the audience to hate the WWE as an evil authority since McMahon, the heat is on the company not a wrestler, and now they're punishing the fans for cheering the insurgent against the evil corporation? They did this to themselves, pretty weird stuff. I'm not much of a Bryan fan either, I like him but I don't think he's the greatest thing ever, I like Brock and Seth more. And blah blah blah, still looking forward to Mania. These thoughts aren't sorted out well btw, kind of a mess I just wrote. I found Cornette talking about some of the problems and it was a pretty good little talk, not sure where to put it but it's worth listening to. Of course it isn't *exactly* accurate, but it is a fairly appropriate comparison. Even if I were to go a step further and compare WWE to what it most similarly resembles, and that's the Gladiatorial games, there is still a sense of entertainment, etc in it. They put the best fighters in that attracted people. David wasn't the draw. Goliath was. At the end of the day, regardless of the physicality, these ARE actors. They're performers. Whether you feel screen/theater differs at all, or not, is entirely besides the point. WWE perfectly blends almost all of these subjects you mentioned together, and in that sense, Reigns is a quality package. Modeling, and Athletics, he has down. Acting -- improving. Wrestling? We'll just say he's not the worst ever, or even working in the company right now. I understand that a lot of SENSIBLE people don't have an issue with Roman Reigns the person. They have a problem with "You're going to take Roman Reigns whether you like it, or not!" -- but the lines often become blurred in there as to who's to blame, and who people do blame. If Michael Cera had been cast as Batman...you'd say he's a terrible choice. Everyone would. But is it his FAULT that he was cast as Batman? Absolutely not. THAT would fall on WB, the Director, etc as I mentioned above. Modeling, athletics, etc, all the same. Do you hold a grudge against a player for getting traded? A model for posing?...they're just there to make money doing their job. We forget that this is all a performance, sometimes, and that leads to people getting incredibly heated about something that, quite honestly, isn't THAT big of a deal. We all have our favorite actors, characters, etc...but the love has to be spread out a bit. And for others who have said in this very thread -- Reigns has a considerable fan base. For the (4th?) time, I point to Twitter/Facebook as proof of this. I'm never going to be like "Roman Reigns is the greatest professional wrestler who EVER LIVED!!!!" But what I am going to say is "WWE has a stacked roster of talent right now, that creative is doing a piss poor job of handling. Roman, along with a handful of other guys, I'm STOKED to see work the company for the next 5-10 years, if some people behind the scenes could get their stuff together. Because this roster could provide us with some great memories. Whether that's Ziggler, Bryan, Rollins, Ambrose, Reigns or Wyatt...and as a wrestling fan, and a story fan -- I'm excited about that."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 21:44:16 GMT -5
You where on the same page as I. I knew you'd see it. That is all. I don't have a problem with you dude. None of my comments on Reigns are directed at you so you should stop being salty about them. I have a problem with your comments because you went out of your way to be snarky towards Jeff Hardy fans and then are preaching the exact opposite of what you did in that thread. Hell, it doesn't even have to be Jeff Hardy. I just don't like it in general. If you're going to bash people, at least follow what you are bashing them for. I took this out of banter because it's not worth getting it locked over.
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Post by Robert69 on Mar 13, 2015 21:47:08 GMT -5
This thread be like...
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Post by Hulk Who? on Mar 13, 2015 21:55:48 GMT -5
Settle down, Anvil, SETTLE DOWN!!
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Post by Chip on Mar 13, 2015 21:58:56 GMT -5
I get your comparison points to movies, etc. As do I get Reigns' same comparisons.
But the problem is that the WWE doesn't WANT you to think it's "just a TV show"....everything they do is presented as real as it gets. UFC isn't scripted but no one has the right to bitch if a guy wins the Heavyweight Title because he's not being handed it by a bunch of writers. However there are people behind the scenes who handle UFC fights and they don't just randomly select guys to face off...they go with what they think the people WANT to see. Same with boxing...why are Mayweather & Pacquiao fighting? Because the FANS want to see it.
Wrestling should be compared more to boxing and UFC than Hollywood
but the WWE is in it's own personal identity crisis
they want soooooooo desperately to be "pop culture cool"...so they latch on to whatever trends are in TV and music. they bring on pointless guest hosts, try to shoehorn themselves into every major sports story, and constantly over-sell themselves as the most-watched program in the history of television. they are marketing towards children, because children don't care about bookers & writers.
the issue? if they even paid any attention to their numbers, they would see that EASILY 75% of everyone in attendance at live shows is over the age of 18...most are probably closer to 30. their core demo for TV is 18-49....I get wanting to sell to kids, it should be part of the whole picture...but the entire product is being sold to "dumb fans and children" when it's just a flat out ignorance to the entire industry.
Vince McMahon is entertaining Vince McMahon. And he knows we all will still watch, still buy shirts, and still stand behind those guys who are getting shitted on every night at the expense of Reigns. "Controversy creates cash". Might have been the best thing ever to come from Eric Bischoff.
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Post by Robert69 on Mar 13, 2015 22:12:24 GMT -5
I get your comparison points to movies, etc. As do I get Reigns' same comparisons. But the problem is that the WWE doesn't WANT you to think it's "just a TV show"....everything they do is presented as real as it gets. UFC isn't scripted but no one has the right to bitch if a guy wins the Heavyweight Title because he's not being handed it by a bunch of writers. However there are people behind the scenes who handle UFC fights and they don't just randomly select guys to face off...they go with what they think the people WANT to see. Same with boxing...why are Mayweather & Pacquiao fighting? Because the FANS want to see it. Wrestling should be compared more to boxing and UFC than Hollywood but the WWE is in it's own personal identity crisis they want soooooooo desperately to be "pop culture cool"...so they latch on to whatever trends are in TV and music. they bring on pointless guest hosts, try to shoehorn themselves into every major sports story, and constantly over-sell themselves as the most-watched program in the history of television. they are marketing towards children, because children don't care about bookers & writers. the issue? if they even paid any attention to their numbers, they would see that EASILY 75% of everyone in attendance at live shows is over the age of 18...most are probably closer to 30. their core demo for TV is 18-49....I get wanting to sell to kids, it should be part of the whole picture...but the entire product is being sold to "dumb fans and children" when it's just a flat out ignorance to the entire industry. Vince McMahon is entertaining Vince McMahon. And he knows we all will still watch, still buy shirts, and still stand behind those guys who are getting crapted on every night at the expense of Reigns. "Controversy creates cash". Might have been the best thing ever to come from Eric Bischoff. Fair enough point. My problem is, if you're going to embrace the 'Reality Era' -- do it. Or don't break kayfabe. You can't have both. This is part of the mistake they're making. What I do agree with you 100% on is WWE is making a HUGE mistake right now. At the apex of their most popular times, mid 80s and Attitude Era...WWE wasn't chasing the trends, they were SETTING them. Now they're content with hocking Twitter, and playing up social media because that's fan engagement. Fan engagement means revenue. It's lazy. The end of WCW/ECW means that they get to get away with being lazy. You need to do something to shake the very foundation of the programming. Have Cena come out and go full blown heel. Establish a quality stable to run roughshod over the company for a while. There are any number of things you can do to shake up, and get peoples' attention. They're just going through the motions at this point. And ALL the talent is falling victim to that, Reigns included. All of this, every single bit of it, could have been avoided had they just waited to bring one of the two back until either after the RR, or ideally just after Mania. Doesn't matter which. D Bry or Reigns. Just pick one, go with him, and leave the other til after. They've essentially split the audience in two. Reigns gets a decent pop in some cities, utter silence in others. D Bry gets massive pops in some, indifference in others. These two should be your top 2 guys, and you've pitted them against each other in an unnatural way. Can't blame either one for that. Rock/Stone Cold worked because they worked on their own, and against one another. The thing that REALLY pisses me off here, is that all their problems could be fixed in a matter of months. We could have meaningful stories, rivalries and TV back, by summer time. Even with Roman Reigns as champion. Will we?...
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Post by Rob on Mar 13, 2015 22:15:19 GMT -5
The problem isnt Roman Reigns. The problem is WWE put a screeching halt to Daniel Bryan's story, The story that has now gone on for well over a year and a half at this point and the story people are heavily invested into, then decided out of nowhere to give Roman this mega push in the middle of it, Despite only having 1-2 singles matches at the beginning of the push. Daniel Bryan returned back from injury after getting stripped of the title, He enters the Rumble and gets eliminated like a low mid carder. Fans are INVESTED in this storyline. This of course outraged the living out of everyone and they turned on Roman when he won. If WWE weren't so ing intellectually- disabled, They would have let Daniel Bryan complete his story with the Authority "You want your title back? You have to go through Brock to get it". Then have Roman Reigns win the Rumble next year and main event the show. Everything would have been cooled and fans would have been on his side. Look at this like a tv series like Walking Dead or Breaking Bad. You dont have a story go on for a year, then decide to replace the main hero character out of nowhere and insert some backing character to take the lead. Fans will be OUTRAGED by that decision.
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Post by Word™ on Mar 13, 2015 22:30:08 GMT -5
If anything he just proved why he is where he is.. He puts his head down and moves forward doing what the company wants.. He is a company man. He'll never question the higher ups.
Both are great for each other, but neither are great for the product.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 23:35:52 GMT -5
Literally the only thing I got out of that interview is that Roman Reigns compared himself to Brad Pit...in some bizarre ass way.
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Post by Hulk Who? on Mar 13, 2015 23:45:03 GMT -5
If he goes heel I think I'm in, if he starts arrogantly talking the way he does in those interviews, about his genetic difference, how the people don't know what's good for them and they're just lucky to be able to smell him during his entrance. He seems to have a handle on that! Not like he's a big draw or has big merchandise sales that turning heel would hurt. Brock smash, Seth cashing in or Reigns turning heel wouldn't disappoint me. Spotlight Reigns?
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Post by Robert69 on Mar 14, 2015 0:04:40 GMT -5
If he goes heel I think I'm in, if he starts arrogantly talking the way he does in those interviews, about his genetic difference, how the people don't know what's good for them and they're just lucky to be able to smell him during his entrance. He seems to have a handle on that! Not like he's a big draw or has big merchandise sales that turning heel would hurt. Brock smash, Seth cashing in or Reigns turning heel wouldn't disappoint me. Spotlight Reigns? Heel, or face, I'm fine with Reigns. Rocky pulled it off. Reigns could too. But I have to say, whole heartedly, I question whether or not the creative team in place right now can handle what would be required to make all this happen, and build his character in such a way. ...just keeps coming back to creative, no matter what happens with him, lol I DO think he could be a very good heel, though. He could be great as a Tweener, and he can work as a face. All in how he's handled/developed. Piss poor, thus far.
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hbkowns
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Post by hbkowns on Mar 14, 2015 0:12:56 GMT -5
If he goes heel I think I'm in, if he starts arrogantly talking the way he does in those interviews, about his genetic difference, how the people don't know what's good for them and they're just lucky to be able to smell him during his entrance. He seems to have a handle on that! Not like he's a big draw or has big merchandise sales that turning heel would hurt. Brock smash, Seth cashing in or Reigns turning heel wouldn't disappoint me. Spotlight Reigns? Heel, or face, I'm fine with Reigns. Rocky pulled it off. Reigns could too. But I have to say, whole heartedly, I question whether or not the creative team in place right now can handle what would be required to make all this happen, and build his character in such a way. ...just keeps coming back to creative, no matter what happens with him, lol I DO think he could be a very good heel, though. He could be great as a Tweener, and he can work as a face. All in how he's handled/developed. Piss poor, thus far. Sorry my friend, Reigns is no Rock. AT ALL. Rock had "IT". Reigns will be lucky if he even draws half of what Rock did.
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Post by Robert69 on Mar 14, 2015 0:17:59 GMT -5
Heel, or face, I'm fine with Reigns. Rocky pulled it off. Reigns could too. But I have to say, whole heartedly, I question whether or not the creative team in place right now can handle what would be required to make all this happen, and build his character in such a way. ...just keeps coming back to creative, no matter what happens with him, lol I DO think he could be a very good heel, though. He could be great as a Tweener, and he can work as a face. All in how he's handled/developed. Piss poor, thus far. Sorry my friend, Reigns is no Rock. AT ALL. Rock had "IT". Reigns will be lucky if he even draws half of what Rock did. Different fan base. Different eras. Lot of variables between the two. I wasn't saying it as in 'Reigns is Rock' -- he's not. I agree. Rock is one of the best of all time. Reigns probably will never be. But my meaning was simply that, if he's chosen as one of the 'faces' of the company. He could be used as such, in either a face, or heel, capacity. Like Rocky was. That was my point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 1:29:07 GMT -5
I have no issues with what he said; same with what transpired in his interview with Byron Saxton...
I like the guy, but like many others feel he's not quite ready yet...
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Post by Rob on Mar 14, 2015 2:06:56 GMT -5
Something to note aswell. A top guy ALWAYS has to have "it". Hulk Hogan had "it", Stone Cold had "it", The Rock had "it", John Cena had "it". They each fit the "it" of their generation. Roman Reigns doesnt fit the "it" of this new generation. That belongs to guys like CM Punk/Daniel Bryan.
WWE tried so hard to force guys like Sheamus and Del Rio down our throat and it backfired in their faces so badly. They did the exact thing WWE is doing with Reigns right now, Forcing a guy out into the deep end before they are ready. Look at Del Rio and Sheamus now, One was released and one is in the midcard getting dead reactions as Cena 2.0.
Obviously WWE has failed to make 2 top stars with the same formula they are using with Reigns, The ol' Royal Rumble Megapush treatment. Its going to happen again with Reigns because like i said, He hasn't shown "it".
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Post by 0,Y on Mar 14, 2015 3:56:35 GMT -5
The problem isnt Roman Reigns. The problem is WWE put a screeching halt to Daniel Bryan's story, The story that has now gone on for well over a year and a half at this point and the story people are heavily invested into, then decided out of nowhere to give Roman this mega push in the middle of it, Despite only having 1-2 singles matches at the beginning of the push. Daniel Bryan returned back from injury after getting stripped of the title, He enters the Rumble and gets eliminated like a low mid carder. Fans are INVESTED in this storyline. This of course outraged the living out of everyone and they turned on Roman when he won. If WWE weren't so ing intellectually- disabled, They would have let Daniel Bryan complete his story with the Authority "You want your title back? You have to go through Brock to get it". Then have Roman Reigns win the Rumble next year and main event the show. Everything would have been cooled and fans would have been on his side. Look at this like a tv series like Walking Dead or Breaking Bad. You dont have a story go on for a year, then decide to replace the main hero character out of nowhere and insert some backing character to take the lead. Fans will be OUTRAGED by that decision.
As lovely as that sounds you forget one thing. They sacrificed the streak so they could establish a new topstar at the next WrestleMania. It seems like that was the plan all along with Reigns being this next guy. Your storyline makes sense but Bryan getting injured directly after WrestleMania XXX screwed everything over. Had they known this beforehand then they could have waited a year so Brock would defeat Taker at 31 with Reigns winning the Rumble and winning the title against Lesnar at 32.
And it's so funny, too. WWE gets criticized alot for not having a long-term plan and just booking from PPV to PPV and once they come up with a good plan some factor (in this case Bryan's injury) s everything up.
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Post by Robert69 on Mar 14, 2015 4:38:57 GMT -5
The problem isnt Roman Reigns. The problem is WWE put a screeching halt to Daniel Bryan's story, The story that has now gone on for well over a year and a half at this point and the story people are heavily invested into, then decided out of nowhere to give Roman this mega push in the middle of it, Despite only having 1-2 singles matches at the beginning of the push. Daniel Bryan returned back from injury after getting stripped of the title, He enters the Rumble and gets eliminated like a low mid carder. Fans are INVESTED in this storyline. This of course outraged the living out of everyone and they turned on Roman when he won. If WWE weren't so ing intellectually- disabled, They would have let Daniel Bryan complete his story with the Authority "You want your title back? You have to go through Brock to get it". Then have Roman Reigns win the Rumble next year and main event the show. Everything would have been cooled and fans would have been on his side. Look at this like a tv series like Walking Dead or Breaking Bad. You dont have a story go on for a year, then decide to replace the main hero character out of nowhere and insert some backing character to take the lead. Fans will be OUTRAGED by that decision.
As lovely as that sounds you forget one thing. They sacrificed the streak so they could establish a new topstar at the next WrestleMania. It seems like that was the plan all along with Reigns being this next guy. Your storyline makes sense but Bryan getting injured directly after WrestleMania XXX screwed everything over. Had they known this beforehand then they could have waited a year so Brock would defeat Taker at 31 with Reigns winning the Rumble and winning the title against Lesnar at 32.
And it's so funny, too. WWE gets criticized alot for not having a long-term plan and just booking from PPV to PPV and once they come up with a good plan some factor (in this case Bryan's injury) s everything up.
Had Lesnar inevitably come along, taken the Title off D Bry, only to drop it to Reigns, people would have lost their minds. God, I can picture it now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 4:47:06 GMT -5
Cena died for our Bryan.
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Post by The Mask of Truth on Mar 14, 2015 6:26:00 GMT -5
This thread is turning religious fast.
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