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Post by nyk9327 on Jun 10, 2007 19:25:51 GMT -5
Derek Lowe argueably could be there but I wouldn't take anybody off that list for him.
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Post by Kliff and the Brewers on Jun 10, 2007 19:27:32 GMT -5
Lilly tossed after tagging Rentaria in the bottom of the first
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Post by Kliff and the Brewers on Jun 10, 2007 19:29:59 GMT -5
aaaand rentaria slides into Fontano at 2nd .......... Fontano got JACKED UP
this could be a very fun game to watch
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Bubbles
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 7, 2005 14:03:02 GMT -5
Posts: 1,072
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Post by Bubbles on Jun 10, 2007 19:34:07 GMT -5
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a dream speech" wasn't about breaking the barriers of racism in contemporary America, it was referencing a wet dream he had about Cole Hamels. mysite.verizon.net/heyjude421/chf/chf.htmlsome of them are pretty good, others not so much.
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Jun 10, 2007 19:36:38 GMT -5
Yah I wouldnt even put Derek Lowe in the Top 50 starters in the majors, maybe even 100.
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Post by Jimmy on Jun 10, 2007 19:44:48 GMT -5
Chris Young is aided tremendously by Petco, he'd probably suck anywhere else.
I'd argue for Aaron Harang but I'd admittedly take atleast 3/4 of that 20 over Harang and Harang's the poor dope pitching in a bandbox anyway.
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Post by Jimmy on Jun 10, 2007 19:45:33 GMT -5
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DWright
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 7, 2005 18:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,839
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Post by DWright on Jun 10, 2007 19:53:02 GMT -5
2006 Chien Ming Wang - BABIP - .291 K/BB - 1.46 K/9 - 3.14 WHIP - 1.31 FIP - 3.96 RS - 153 runs scored What this basically tells you -- Wang is good enough to stay in a game for a team that gives him great run support. He doesn't walk himself into trouble often, keeps the ball in the ball park, and allows his defense behind him to make the plays. Wang is a decent pitcher that gets VERY lucky, gets good run support (19 W), and finds a lot of bats. And as said, 1 game doesn't mean anything. Bud Smith threw a no-hitter, while it's a great accomplishment, it doesn't make a career. (especially if you don't even follow through on it) I don't understand how he gets "lucky" by being the most economical pitcher in baseball, and basically allowing an average of 3 - 4 runs a game. Matt DeSalvo is lucky. Chase Wright is lucky. I even think Tyler Clippard is lucky. But Wang? I don't know how you can say that...he's had 2 great seasons and pitches to contact. Just because he doesn't strike out 10 guys a start doesn't mean he's lucky. Wang isn't just some scrub who has beaten teams with mediocre offense, this is his third season in the majors, and he's looked as good if not better than he has last year. The K/ BB ratio for Wang shouldn't even be a basis on how you're judging him since he's not a strikeout pitcher. Wang is an ideal # 2 or 3 starter. Not an ace, in my book, but the results speak for themselves. He didn't win 19 games by scores of 10-9 or 6-5. The 2 that are arguing in the case of Wang keep bringing up K/BB ration - yet it's not the ONLY I've used to prove just how lucky Wang is. BABIP? FIP? The guy had 153 runs scored when pitching last year, that's quite a nice cushion in order to win 19 games. Not to mention, 3.14 K/9 is downright AWFUL, even if you're only going to focus on the fact that doesn't strike anyone out. NOTHING BAD comes from striking out another player. It's an out. It gets you out of jams, it eliminates momentum, etc, etc, etc. Chien Ming Wang is a decent pitcher at best. When your pitches find a lot of bats...you don't have a successful career, period. His WHIP alone proves that. And honestly, stop going back to his 8IP, 2H game. John Lieber just threw a CG, 3 H with 11 K. Are you going to stop the season now and hand him the Cy Young? No. Wang is over rated, simple as that.
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Post by T R W on Jun 10, 2007 19:58:03 GMT -5
my wang is underrated.
This has been a fun game so far. K-E-L-L-Y with the longball
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 10, 2007 20:14:03 GMT -5
I don't understand how he gets "lucky" by being the most economical pitcher in baseball, and basically allowing an average of 3 - 4 runs a game. Matt DeSalvo is lucky. Chase Wright is lucky. I even think Tyler Clippard is lucky. But Wang? I don't know how you can say that...he's had 2 great seasons and pitches to contact. Just because he doesn't strike out 10 guys a start doesn't mean he's lucky. Wang isn't just some scrub who has beaten teams with mediocre offense, this is his third season in the majors, and he's looked as good if not better than he has last year. The K/ BB ratio for Wang shouldn't even be a basis on how you're judging him since he's not a strikeout pitcher. Wang is an ideal # 2 or 3 starter. Not an ace, in my book, but the results speak for themselves. He didn't win 19 games by scores of 10-9 or 6-5. The 2 that are arguing in the case of Wang keep bringing up K/BB ration - yet it's not the ONLY I've used to prove just how lucky Wang is. BABIP? FIP? The guy had 153 runs scored when pitching last year, that's quite a nice cushion in order to win 19 games. Not to mention, 3.14 K/9 is downright AWFUL, even if you're only going to focus on the fact that doesn't strike anyone out. NOTHING BAD comes from striking out another player. It's an out. It gets you out of jams, it eliminates momentum, etc, etc, etc. Chien Ming Wang is a decent pitcher at best. When your pitches find a lot of bats...you don't have a successful career, period. His WHIP alone proves that. And honestly, stop going back to his 8IP, 2H game. John Lieber just threw a CG, 3 H with 11 K. Are you going to stop the season now and hand him the Cy Young? No. Wang is over rated, simple as that. You obviously don't understand how a sinkerball pitcher works. Their objective is to PITCH to CONTACT. They want the opposing team to hit the ball. If they're doing their job, the balls that get hit will be right at infielders to record outs. So, just because Wang is a sinkerballer, he should throw more strikeouts? There have been excellent sinkerballers of the past. It's not like Wang is the first of these mysterious pitchers. He's able to throw as hard as 95 MPH which is what makes his sinker work the way it does. The 8 IP, 2 hit game is amazing when you consider the fact that Wang is not a strikeout pitcher and makes a living by having guys make contact on his sinkerball. I don't even know how many strikeouts Wang had in that game, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't many. Good for Jon Lieber and his CG shutout...the fact that he had 11 strikeouts further proves my point that for Wang to be able to go deep into games is a testament of how good his control is. I'm not going to argue that the Yankees' offense hasn't bailed Wang out at times, but posting a 3.63 ERA in 218 innings speaks for itself. Like I said, I don't consider Wang an ace, but I also don't agree that he's overrated or a "lucky" pitcher. To post an ERA in the 3's while pitching in the AL is excellent, no matter how much run support you get.
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Post by T R W on Jun 10, 2007 20:17:23 GMT -5
lol @ shaqs fat camp
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Post by nyk9327 on Jun 10, 2007 20:31:50 GMT -5
Lowe has been solid the last two years and this year he has been great.
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Post by taker1 on Jun 10, 2007 21:10:35 GMT -5
Lowe has been solid the last two years and this year he has been great. No..just no. I'll always love Derek, but that drunk bastard doesn't even sniff the Top 20 with a ten-foot pole. I don't even know how you could think he's in there..
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DWright
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 7, 2005 18:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,839
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Post by DWright on Jun 10, 2007 21:17:00 GMT -5
The 2 that are arguing in the case of Wang keep bringing up K/BB ration - yet it's not the ONLY I've used to prove just how lucky Wang is. BABIP? FIP? The guy had 153 runs scored when pitching last year, that's quite a nice cushion in order to win 19 games. Not to mention, 3.14 K/9 is downright AWFUL, even if you're only going to focus on the fact that doesn't strike anyone out. NOTHING BAD comes from striking out another player. It's an out. It gets you out of jams, it eliminates momentum, etc, etc, etc. Chien Ming Wang is a decent pitcher at best. When your pitches find a lot of bats...you don't have a successful career, period. His WHIP alone proves that. And honestly, stop going back to his 8IP, 2H game. John Lieber just threw a CG, 3 H with 11 K. Are you going to stop the season now and hand him the Cy Young? No. Wang is over rated, simple as that. You obviously don't understand how a sinkerball pitcher works. Their objective is to PITCH to CONTACT. They want the opposing team to hit the ball. If they're doing their job, the balls that get hit will be right at infielders to record outs. So, just because Wang is a sinkerballer, he should throw more strikeouts? There have been excellent sinkerballers of the past. It's not like Wang is the first of these mysterious pitchers. He's able to throw as hard as 95 MPH which is what makes his sinker work the way it does. The 8 IP, 2 hit game is amazing when you consider the fact that Wang is not a strikeout pitcher and makes a living by having guys make contact on his sinkerball. I don't even know how many strikeouts Wang had in that game, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't many. Good for Jon Lieber and his CG shutout...the fact that he had 11 strikeouts further proves my point that for Wang to be able to go deep into games is a testament of how good his control is. I'm not going to argue that the Yankees' offense hasn't bailed Wang out at times, but posting a 3.63 ERA in 218 innings speaks for itself. Like I said, I don't consider Wang an ace, but I also don't agree that he's overrated or a "lucky" pitcher. To post an ERA in the 3's while pitching in the AL is excellent, no matter how much run support you get. Yes, I suddenly don't know how a sinker ball pitcher works...seriously, you have avoided both BABIP and FIP in EVERY discussion, 2 stats that I've used numerous times to back this argument, which leads me to believe that you have NO idea what they are at all. Which is fine...but don't keep going back to the same argument over and over and then over look what I keep saying. Read into BABIP, read into FIP and hell, even read into WHIP (233+52 in 218 IP is NOT good) and then keep defending Wang. It won't happen.
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Post by tim on Jun 10, 2007 21:32:35 GMT -5
LOL jamie moyer
LOL kansas city royals
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 10, 2007 22:06:17 GMT -5
You obviously don't understand how a sinkerball pitcher works. Their objective is to PITCH to CONTACT. They want the opposing team to hit the ball. If they're doing their job, the balls that get hit will be right at infielders to record outs. So, just because Wang is a sinkerballer, he should throw more strikeouts? There have been excellent sinkerballers of the past. It's not like Wang is the first of these mysterious pitchers. He's able to throw as hard as 95 MPH which is what makes his sinker work the way it does. The 8 IP, 2 hit game is amazing when you consider the fact that Wang is not a strikeout pitcher and makes a living by having guys make contact on his sinkerball. I don't even know how many strikeouts Wang had in that game, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't many. Good for Jon Lieber and his CG shutout...the fact that he had 11 strikeouts further proves my point that for Wang to be able to go deep into games is a testament of how good his control is. I'm not going to argue that the Yankees' offense hasn't bailed Wang out at times, but posting a 3.63 ERA in 218 innings speaks for itself. Like I said, I don't consider Wang an ace, but I also don't agree that he's overrated or a "lucky" pitcher. To post an ERA in the 3's while pitching in the AL is excellent, no matter how much run support you get. Yes, I suddenly don't know how a sinker ball pitcher works...seriously, you have avoided both BABIP and FIP in EVERY discussion, 2 stats that I've used numerous times to back this argument, which leads me to believe that you have NO idea what they are at all. Which is fine...but don't keep going back to the same argument over and over and then over look what I keep saying. Read into BABIP, read into FIP and hell, even read into WHIP (233+52 in 218 IP is NOT good) and then keep defending Wang. It won't happen. I really don't understand how you even pay attention to his BABIP stat. Wang, like any sinkerballer, is a groundball pitcher, so most of the hits he allows are groundballs that find holes in the infield. He allowed the most groundballs in baseball last season, and he was among the league leaders in double plays, as well. So explain to me how you even look deeply into his BABIP or WHIP knowing that he's a groundball pitcher and pitches in and out of trouble, like I've been telling you the past 3 posts? Also, since you like reading into stats so much, Wang has a 1.23 WHIP this season so far, and a 1.28 WHIP in his career. Opponents are also hitting .269 against him in his career so far. He had 483 groundballs last year and 33 GIDP.
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DWright
Main Eventer
Joined on: Jan 7, 2005 18:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,839
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Post by DWright on Jun 10, 2007 22:26:54 GMT -5
235 IP - 216 H - 50 BB - .293 BABIP - 3.23 FIP - 2.46 AVG VS - 6.82 K/9 - 3.56 K/BB - 1.13 WHIP
That's another sinkerball pitcher from 06. Those stats look a lot better than Wang's.
Wang's pitches find a lot of bats (yes, again) the only difference is, those pitches turn into a lot of hits. Again, Wang is an over rated pitcher that wins a lot of games on pure luck. I'm really done with this discussion, seeing as you're really over looking everything and trying to justify just because he's a groundball pitcher, he's allowed an above average BABIP, very high WHIP and an above average FIP.
And 9 games is nothing, wait till the end of the season before you start getting gitty over him.
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 10, 2007 22:29:17 GMT -5
What pitcher are those stats from? I'd like to see how many DPs were turned behind him and how many groundball outs he had throughout the regular season.
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Post by ThugSuperstar on Jun 10, 2007 22:33:34 GMT -5
I just saw highlights of the Arizona/ Boston game...is RJ starting to grow a mullet again?
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Post by Jean-Ralphio on Jun 10, 2007 22:35:57 GMT -5
Yankees should have kept him just to pitch against Boston, we get crapagainst him
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