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Post by warriorlynx on Jul 8, 2018 8:20:55 GMT -5
We all know Bret Hart was the underdog story that would hold the title till WMIX. His win made sense, he had tenure, beat Piper at WM8, and allowed the WWF further expansion into Canada/Europe. The downside was he wasn't a big enough draw (though business was in a decline) and did have his fair share of losses in 92 too (Mountie, Bulldog). If Vince didn't go with Bret, who do you think could've been picked?
In essence, there were little options to choose a top star back in the fall of 1992. Top guys like Hogan, Piper, Sid, and Jake Roberts were already gone. Warrior and Bulldog, two other top guys were eventually fired and there was no way Vince was going to give it to Warrior post-SS92. Flair was supposed to continue with the title after winning it off of Randy, but his vertigo problems forced him to drop it. Some possibilities (not in any order):
1. Randy Savage - Randy was thought of for taking back the title from Flair again, but he wanted a limited role in the ring at least temporarily and was coming off of his divorce.
2. The Undertaker - Was former WWF Champion and was over. However it may have been too early since Vince saw him as "my Andre". As a side note, Taker was the most over star in late 93, more than Bret and Luger IMO.
3. Tito Santana - Tito was pushed by Pat Patterson over Bret at the time because of tenure (ie. two-time IC champ, two time Tag champ) and that they could attempt to expand to Central/South America with him. The problem was his stupid El Matador gimmick and how far down to jobber status he was heading towards (losing to Shawn at WM8/losing in a dark match at SS92).
4. Mr. Perfect - Was still a heel, may have required Flair to keep the title till Survivor Series for a match with Perfect. The story could work with Randy this time interfering with the two creating a situation that has Razor Ramon take over Perfect's role and Flair betraying Perfect.
5. Rick Martel - Former AWA World Champion/WWF tag champ, Martel was in a hot feud with Shawn Micheals, but as a heel. Perhaps a babyface turn may have worked, but it'd have to be a damn good turn. Martel getting the title, he could finish his feud with Micheals at Survivor Series.
Who would you have picked other than Bret?
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nibs92
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Post by nibs92 on Jul 8, 2018 9:42:27 GMT -5
92 was the year I started watching and the beginning of the end of the greatest era. Thinking about your question though highlights one of the major problems. Who could lead the next generation?
Bulldog may have been a good choice, especially looking at the upturn in business in Europe. However it would have blown up in their faces with the HGH issue that led to his departure.
It’s easy for me to forget my timelines and say Shawn Michaels. But back then he was a solid midcard and had behavioural issues. Way too soon for him.
Tito was pretty much a jobber by then so a poor choice. Same with Martel
Looking at the way WWF did business, you could rule out people from other feds, such as Sting. Even if he was available, you’d have to build him up to the WWF audience before he was accepted as champion by the masses.
The only other viable option IMO would be the Undertaker. I get the point of him being Vince’s “Andre” but realistically he’s the only other one around that time. The only problem being challengers. I would accept guys like Kamala, Giant Gonzales and even someone like Papa Shango as a threat to the Undertaker but not to the Championship.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Jul 8, 2018 10:32:02 GMT -5
I think Bret ended up getting the belt in 1992 because he deserved it and for the fact that nobody else made any sense.
Bulldog was definitely over, but couldn't be trusted with all of his drug issues. And while Bret may have been kind of stiff on the mic, Davey wasn't any better.
As for Savage, Warrior and Flair, Vince could have put the belt on either guy as a transitional champion. However, it was obvious that he was looking in a new direction even though all three still had plenty to offer as in-ring competitiors. Their problem was that they represented the past generation which I think kind of disqualifies them from any consideration. Warrior wouldn't even last until 1993, Flair left in January and Savage spent most of the year as a commentator.
Tito Santana? C'mon, that was never going to happen. The guy was a total jobber by that time and putting the most important title on him would have made ZERO sense.
Martel wasn't a likely candidate either. He was still a solid heel mid-carder, but was an established veteran more suited for enhancement feuds than as the face of the company.
The Undertaker could have definitely worked. He was booked so poorly between 1992-1995 that pretty much any alternative would have been better. Easily one of the most over guys in the company, but he had a few things working against him. First, the WWF was dangerously low on quality main event heels. Who would he feud with that posed a real threat? They almost needed to take a newcomer like Yokozuna and shoot him to the moon. I also think that while Vince saw plenty of dollars in the character, he didn't necessarily want or need The Undertaker holding the WWF belt. Vince was still searching for his next Hogan back then and wanted a big, muscular replacement who could talk on the mic. I just don't think the timing was right for a babyface Undertaker title reign with what Vince was searching for at the time.
Mr. Perfect was another favorite of mine, but just too much of a risk to be World champion back when he first returned. He was coming off a very serious back injury. I'm sure they were happy to have him back for the added roster depth, but in no rush to put the belt on him so quickly.
I think they went with Bret because he was the only one who made any sense and he perfectly fit the image Vince wanted for the WWF... until Wrestlemania IX. 😑
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Post by warriorlynx on Jul 8, 2018 10:54:25 GMT -5
I don't think Bret was meant to be long-term, I'm sure there was hope that he would be a big draw. They planned for Yoko to win the title at WMIX (even with Vince's hesitation for a heel champ it was the plan) till Vince decided to work a short-term program with Hulk. Also, while Vince did say he was focusing on a youth movement (this is because of that awful Flair-Randy match that he made them work twice in one night), it wasn't necessarily a "new generation".
The "New Generation" was officially declared half-way through 1994, as a result of Vince realizing he was forced to go on without guys like Hulk. Remember Vince brought back guys like Bob Backlund, still worked with Jim Duggan, Virgil, Jim Powers and even shortly Jimmy Snuka in 93.
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 8, 2018 11:52:15 GMT -5
Bulldog was never going to get it. Vince was furious with him after SSlam 92. He was given the ME slot and treated like a big deal. He repaid that favour by turning up wasted and Hart had to carry his drugged up ass.
Vince couldn't wait to get he IC title off him never mind give him the main strap. I will always maintain that if Smith had turned up in good shape? He would have been World champ later in the year or in 1993.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Jul 8, 2018 17:38:33 GMT -5
Bulldog was never going to get it. Vince was furious with him after SSlam 92. He was given the ME slot and treated like a big deal. He repaid that favour by turning up wasted and Hart had to carry his drugged up ass. Vince couldn't wait to get he IC title off him never mind give him the main strap. I will always maintain that if Smith had turned up in good shape? He would have been World champ later in the year or in 1993. So sadly true. Davey didn't just show up out of shape or something. He apparently had been spending most of that summer on the sidelines bumping coke with Neidhart. Bret has gone on record numerous times saying that they went over the entire match spot for spot because of the condition Davey was in and Bret still had to call the entire match live. Davey remembered nothing. He was a total wreck and didn't even deserve the opportunity to main event the biggest show of the year let alone get a run with the biggest title in the company. The British Bulldog was one of my favorites as a kid, but it doesn't change the fact that he screwed up plenty of opportunities for himself and was never able to control his demons. |
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 9, 2018 4:36:06 GMT -5
Bulldog was never going to get it. Vince was furious with him after SSlam 92. He was given the ME slot and treated like a big deal. He repaid that favour by turning up wasted and Hart had to carry his drugged up ass. Vince couldn't wait to get he IC title off him never mind give him the main strap. I will always maintain that if Smith had turned up in good shape? He would have been World champ later in the year or in 1993. So sadly true. Davey didn't just show up out of shape or something. He apparently had been spending most of that summer on the sidelines bumping coke with Neidhart. Bret has gone on record numerous times saying that they went over the entire match spot for spot because of the condition Davey was in and Bret still had to call the entire match live. Davey remembered nothing. He was a total wreck and didn't even deserve the opportunity to main event the biggest show of the year let alone get a run with the biggest title in the company. The British Bulldog was one of my favorites as a kid, but it doesn't change the fact that he screwed up plenty of opportunities for himself and was never able to control his demons. Hawk & Smith turning up to Summerslam 92 absolutely trashed must've made Vince furious. A MASSIVE show and 2 of his top draws show up hardly able to stand up straight. LOD were to reclaim the tag straps from Money Inc @ SS92 but Hawks repeated  ups destroyed that too. Ya have to feel for Animal sometimes too...... |
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Post by mikey1974 on Jul 9, 2018 16:43:04 GMT -5
I remember the story from Bret's book, that Pat Patterson told him Vince was looking at crowning a new Champion, and he was on the list, so don't screw up! So, realistically, my thoughts on the six:
1) Bret Hart - obviously.
2) Ultimate Warrior - he was still hella-over, and one of the top stars. He was feuding with Flair in Fall 1992 so it would've been an easy transition to have take the Belt.
3) Tito Santana - let's get this out of the way. I fully believe Vince only put him on the list to make Pat happy. Cause by this point he was well past his prime in not only physicality but as a viable character and merchandise. WWF Champion Tito Santana vs Yokozuna at WrestleMania IX? In the Main Event? I don't care what he told Tito, I don't believe Vince ever took this seriously.
4) The Undertaker - He was MASSIVELY over since becoming a face in early 1992, and could've carried the company. Well, he would've carried as well as Macho did.
5) Macho Man - If he didn't like any of the other choices, it wouldn't have surprised me to have Vince fall back on a safe option like Savage again, if Macho could get his head on straight .
6) "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan - yes,I said this. He was still massively over, and could have made a good,safe transitional Champion for a period of time.
.....others I don't feel could have been viable like Mr. Perfect (still a heel,with Flair no less), Razor Ramon (too new to the WWF), Shawn Michaels ( still feeling out his place as a singles wrestler), Rick Martel ( similar situation to Tito), Crush ( still working his way into his gimmick), British Bulldog ( Vince lost all faith in him after Wembley) and Tatanka ( really over, but still too new to the WWF).
I don't think it mattered who got it,to a degree, cause Vince was only too happy to put the strap around Hogan's waist as soon as he came back in 1993. So no matter who was Champ,they were in essence only holding it for Hulk.
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Post by The Brain on Jul 9, 2018 17:18:01 GMT -5
Only two that come to mind to me is Taker and Perfect. Taker was white hot as a babyface so that's a viable option and as far as Mr. Perfect goes they could've had an angle where he's had enough of being Flair's ''Executive Consultant'' in which he would challenge em for the belt and in the end win it.
Like Mikey said though at the end of the day they would only be holding it until Hogan got it back in 93.
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Post by Nivro™ on Jul 9, 2018 22:39:31 GMT -5
Bret's first run with the title was very forgettable. You could legit put anyone in that role and it would have been fine. The best thing that ever happened to Bret was WMIX where he lost the title to Yoko and then Hogan got it back. Bret actually getting to "chase" the title made him a more believable champion then a random win on Prime Time Wrestling.
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 11, 2018 5:20:00 GMT -5
I remember the story from Bret's book, that Pat Patterson told him Vince was looking at crowning a new Champion, and he was on the list, so don't screw up! So, realistically, my thoughts on the six: 1) Bret Hart - obviously. 2) Ultimate Warrior - he was still hella-over, and one of the top stars. He was feuding with Flair in Fall 1992 so it would've been an easy transition to have take the Belt. 3) Tito Santana - let's get this out of the way. I fully believe Vince only put him on the list to make Pat happy. Cause by this point he was well past his prime in not only physicality but as a viable character and merchandise. WWF Champion Tito Santana vs Yokozuna at WrestleMania IX? In the Main Event? I don't care what he told Tito, I don't believe Vince ever took this seriously. 4) The Undertaker - He was MASSIVELY over since becoming a face in early 1992, and could've carried the company. Well, he would've carried as well as Macho did. 5) Macho Man - If he didn't like any of the other choices, it wouldn't have surprised me to have Vince fall back on a safe option like Savage again, if Macho could get his head on straight . 6) "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan - yes,I said this. He was still massively over, and could have made a good,safe transitional Champion for a period of time. .....others I don't feel could have been viable like Mr. Perfect (still a heel,with Flair no less), Razor Ramon (too new to the WWF), Shawn Michaels ( still feeling out his place as a singles wrestler), Rick Martel ( similar situation to Tito), Crush ( still working his way into his gimmick), British Bulldog ( Vince lost all faith in him after Wembley) and Tatanka ( really over, but still too new to the WWF). I don't think it mattered who got it,to a degree, cause Vince was only too happy to put the strap around Hogan's waist as soon as he came back in 1993. So no matter who was Champ,they were in essence only holding it for Hulk. Great post. 100% on the money about Hogan in 1993 too. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jul 11, 2018 9:45:27 GMT -5
Clearly Lance Cassidy should have been the chosen one!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 15:48:52 GMT -5
IMO the belt should have not been takin off Flair. then have Survivor Series go exactly like it did. Then have Mr Perfect win the belt from Flair at RR93. then Perfect beats him in the loser leaves match as well. then its Perfect vs Yoko and exact scenerio happens at WM9 that happened with Bret and Hogan running in. Bret could have been saved for Champ next year at WM10 vs Luger who shoulda won it at Summerslam93.
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Post by warriorlynx on Jul 12, 2018 19:38:22 GMT -5
IMO the belt should have not been takin off Flair. then have Survivor Series go exactly like it did. Then have Mr Perfect win the belt from Flair at RR93. then Perfect beats him in the loser leaves match as well. then its Perfect vs Yoko and exact scenerio happens at WM9 that happened with Bret and Hogan running in. Bret could have been saved for Champ next year at WM10 vs Luger who shoulda won it at Summerslam93. i like the idea, but they had to take the title off of Flair because of his vertigo/health issues, to top it all he wanted to leave (after hearing about the "youth movement"). If they could've worked with Flair somehow, I would've loved that plus imagine if Perfect won the title on RAW in that retirement match (make it a title vs. retirement match). That would've been something. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 8:46:46 GMT -5
IMO the belt should have not been takin off Flair. then have Survivor Series go exactly like it did. Then have Mr Perfect win the belt from Flair at RR93. then Perfect beats him in the loser leaves match as well. then its Perfect vs Yoko and exact scenerio happens at WM9 that happened with Bret and Hogan running in. Bret could have been saved for Champ next year at WM10 vs Luger who shoulda won it at Summerslam93. i like the idea, but they had to take the title off of Flair because of his vertigo/health issues, to top it all he wanted to leave (after hearing about the "youth movement"). If they could've worked with Flair somehow, I would've loved that plus imagine if Perfect won the title on RAW in that retirement match (make it a title vs. retirement match). That would've been something. they could let him keep for just 3 more months. just limit the schedule. the Survivor Series match woulda been that much more special and important with Flair still champ too. I like Perfect winning it at RR93 then a rematch on Raw. Falir wouldnt have minded losing twice to his buddy in real life either. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 12:39:42 GMT -5
The correct answer is no one.
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Jul 14, 2018 13:08:47 GMT -5
The correct answer is no one. I agree. One of the few times where most fans can reflect and agree that Vince made the right move. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 17, 2018 12:57:49 GMT -5
Bulldog was never going to get it. Vince was furious with him after SSlam 92. He was given the ME slot and treated like a big deal. He repaid that favour by turning up wasted and Hart had to carry his drugged up ass. Vince couldn't wait to get he IC title off him never mind give him the main strap. I will always maintain that if Smith had turned up in good shape? He would have been World champ later in the year or in 1993. I could be wrong as I haven’t read it in years, but I believe in Bret’s book that the plan was always to have Davey drop the title to Shawn not long after SS ‘92. Bret claimed he originally would drop it to Shawn, but pitched the idea to Vince about working with Davey, who would then drop the title to Shawn shortly there after. I don’t doubt that Vince was pissed. I just remember from Bret’s book that Davey was never planned to have a long reign. |
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koreygunz
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Post by koreygunz on Jul 18, 2018 7:58:42 GMT -5
Bulldog was never going to get it. Vince was furious with him after SSlam 92. He was given the ME slot and treated like a big deal. He repaid that favour by turning up wasted and Hart had to carry his drugged up ass. Vince couldn't wait to get he IC title off him never mind give him the main strap. I will always maintain that if Smith had turned up in good shape? He would have been World champ later in the year or in 1993. I could be wrong as I haven’t read it in years, but I believe in Bret’s book that the plan was always to have Davey drop the title to Shawn not long after SS ‘92. Bret claimed he originally would drop it to Shawn, but pitched the idea to Vince about working with Davey, who would then drop the title to Shawn shortly there after. I don’t doubt that Vince was pissed. I just remember from Bret’s book that Davey was never planned to have a long reign. I'm not sure about that. I think I remember there was a Bulldog vs Mountie IC Title match in early ads for Survivor Series 92, so I don't think SS helped. Plus title runs were longer back then. Obviously Bulldog got fired in November so it didn't really matter anyway, but I think had he not been so screwed up at Summerslam and not been caught in the steroid bust, maybe he holds it until at least Rumble 93 where he drops it to Shawn with a hope of Shawn vs Marty at WM9 |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jul 18, 2018 8:33:09 GMT -5
If anyone was going to beat Ric Flair to end his 2nd reign as WWE Champion it had to be Bret Hart. The only other logical guy besides Bret would have been Randy Savage to make himself a 3 time WWE Champion.
Looking back at that era, they already had a Bret vs. HBK IC Title feud from April - August of 1992, and Savage was feuding with Razor Ramon on house shows, so it wouldn't make sense to keep Bret in the IC contention, nor would it be good to have Savage feuding with Ramon for the WWE Title at that time.
Bret was the right choice. It was shocking, but a good shock. I think because nobody figured it would ever happen, even though we all wanted it to happen.
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