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Post by FLUX '97 on Nov 12, 2018 11:53:21 GMT -5
22 goddamn years and Bret’s still probably pissy about it. 21.* And wouldn't you be? He has every right to be. Never got his win back from WM12, had the title quite literally stolen from him against what he agreed to. He had/has every right to be angry that that's how his loyalty was returned. No, I would not be upset for 21 years about losing a fake gold and leather strap in a scripted fight. Bret constantly tried to make it all about him and was outright refusing to do the job in Canada, so Vince made the call that needed to be made. Bret was just as much of a politicking old glory hog as Hogan.
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Post by Hulkster2001 on Nov 12, 2018 12:02:03 GMT -5
21.* And wouldn't you be? He has every right to be. Never got his win back from WM12, had the title quite literally stolen from him against what he agreed to. He had/has every right to be angry that that's how his loyalty was returned. No, I would not be upset for 21 years about losing a fake gold and leather strap in a scripted fight. Bret constantly tried to make it all about him and was outright refusing to do the job in Canada, so Vince made the call that needed to be made. Bret was just as much of a politicking old glory hog as Shawn. Fixed. (no but seriously I agree with you on this, honestly people need to stop kissing his @$$ all the damn time.)
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Post by JokerFC on Nov 13, 2018 5:49:15 GMT -5
For the life of me I still cant figure out why Vince put the strap on Bret @ Summerslam 1997 AFTER his conversation about the contract happened knowing full well what lay ahead.
I can only surmise Vince thought Bret would have no problem whatsoever dropping it to HBK....but shortly after Summerslam he knew that wasn't the case and it was STILL left to the last minute.
UT should have wont it back @ IYH:Ground Zero with inadvertent help from HBK. UT says he's gonna settle with Michaels once & for all @ IYH Badd Blood because he cost him @ Summerslam and tried it again @ Ground Zero. HBK wins it in HIAC. You still have Kanes debut etc.
If Vince HAS TO HAVE HBK vs Hart? Hart attacks Michaels the next night on Raw
Vince's line about him being afraid Hart would have went with the belt is also BS. Turner execs wouldn't have allowed this because they were still balls deep in the lawsuit over Hall/Razor & Medusa & the belt....plus I genuinely don't feel Hart would have done this.
Amazing how WCW botched Harts arrival....but he wasn't the same guy going there. His head was f*cked up.....& he was going to a locker room PACKED with political enemies
Hogan, Hall, Nash.....then you had guys like Flair,Luger & Savage worrying over there spots and younger guys going "great another good old boy coming in"
Was NEVER gonna work.
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Post by Hulkster2001 on Nov 13, 2018 9:43:41 GMT -5
If I was Vince I would’ve had Taker retain the title at Summerslam (maybe still have Michaels hit him with the chair, refusing to count the pin, and Bret gets himself disqualified by attacking Michaels.) Then after that he and Bret would face off in the cell and Kane debuts costing Bret the match by attacking Taker then I’d have Kane defeat Bret in Survivor Series to showcase how serious of a threat he is to Taker who I would have him lose the belt at IYH: Degeneration X to HBK.
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Papi Joker
Main Eventer
INTERNATIONAL COLLECTORS LIVES MATTER
Joined on: Feb 23, 2016 23:56:30 GMT -5
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Post by Papi Joker on Nov 13, 2018 19:48:29 GMT -5
things to remember:
*Bret Hart had creative control. If he didn't want to, then by God he had legal rights not to do it. *Bret could have sued Vince, but chose to punch him instead.
*HBK refused to drop the title to him and 'lost his smile' and faked an injury. *this is all after the Curtain Call (another example of just how unprofessional they were) *HBK (and Triple H) full on lied to Julie Hart when she confronted them - this should be enough proof of what kind of cowards these 'men' were. *HBK 'swearing to God!" he didn't know about it- when clearly he did, (then proceeding to return in 2002 as a Born Again Christian - which is IMO a gimmick and a clever one, the only way fans would buy him back was if he was 'clean of sin' Texan evangelists are mostly fake)
*Bret Hart wasn't some boy who watched wrestling and thought being the champion was a nice dream - he was born into it, he had rasslin in his blood! it was his FAMILY HONOR, he would have never taken the belt to WCW and he would have gone out on his back (even losing to his rival). The best way to look at it is this was kinda like Game Of Thrones, and Bret= Ned Stark, HBK/HHH/Vince= Lannisters. - IMO
and for the record... the older i get the more i think it was a work.
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Post by Hulkster2001 on Nov 14, 2018 9:11:01 GMT -5
and for the record... the older i get the more i think it was a work. So I guess having a $#*%y run in WCW and getting kicked in the head was a part of it?
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Post by Artie Kendall on Nov 14, 2018 16:36:13 GMT -5
and for the record... the older i get the more i think it was a work. So I guess having a $#*%y run in WCW and getting kicked in the head was a part of it? The two things you mentioned were out of his hands. Bret was coming off of beating Austin, Austin's team, Taker for the title, and being screw out of the title/ "never really losing it". WCW took the Bret Hart airplane and crashed it into the mountain. Part of the conspiracy is Bret and Vince worked together to get WCW to pony up more money for Bret, they do the screwjob finish and Bret goes to WCW and after three or four years and taking all the money that Vince couldn't afford from Ted Turner, Bret returns to finish everything with Vince at Mania. There are holes in it but some if it does sound convincing.
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Post by Hulkster2001 on Nov 14, 2018 17:33:55 GMT -5
after three or four years and taking all the money that Vince couldn't afford from Ted Turner, Bret returns to finish everything with Vince at Mania. There are holes in it but some if it does sound convincing. Not really, why wait that long? Why not keep Bret on after Montreal? Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? This logic is stupid, not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens and it happened on November 9, 1997.
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Papi Joker
Main Eventer
INTERNATIONAL COLLECTORS LIVES MATTER
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Post by Papi Joker on Nov 14, 2018 19:07:44 GMT -5
after three or four years and taking all the money that Vince couldn't afford from Ted Turner, Bret returns to finish everything with Vince at Mania. There are holes in it but some if it does sound convincing. Not really, why wait that long? Why not keep Bret on after Montreal? Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? This logic is stupid, not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens and it happened on November 9, 1997. Of course not, none of this could be planned (injury and death) you cannot assume that is what we are saying. Owen didn't die because of the screwjob dude. Bret being bitter for 21 years - did you not get the point of him being a true pro? a legit worker??? could be part of the plan man. The whole Wrestling with Shadows thing... it is very coincidental isn't it?
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Post by Artie Kendall on Nov 14, 2018 19:21:05 GMT -5
after three or four years and taking all the money that Vince couldn't afford from Ted Turner, Bret returns to finish everything with Vince at Mania. There are holes in it but some if it does sound convincing. Not really, why wait that long? Why not keep Bret on after Montreal? Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? This logic is stupid, not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens and it happened on November 9, 1997. I want to break your questions down and answer them the best I can. I do not believe in the devil but do love devils advocate. So I will answer your questions with the best information I can provide with quick research on the topic of it being a work and not a shoot. I will try to answer your first and second question together. They kind of go together, the theory is that Vince wanted to get Bret Hart the big pay that he couldn't afford but felt he deserved (he was also starting to tinker with the idea of taking the company public and couldn't have such a long contract on the books). Bret at the time of his departure from the WWF was the highest paid wrestler on the roster. The contract was reported at $1.5 million a year. He didn't want to keep Bret Hart after Montreal because he felt that Bret's time was coming to an end and was ready to push his next star. The benefits of the screwjob is that Bret got richer, McMahon got his champ to get to his star, McMahon got the Mr.McMahon character. Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? Perhaps he is bitter or perhaps he is keeping kayfabe. Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? I think the better way to phrase your question is did the WWF commit homicide? In the case of Owen Hart, no they did not. As Hulkster2001 said not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? According to the theorist the plan was for him to work for WCW for the length of his contract and return to WWF to get revenge on McMahon and then retire to the agent role he was going to have towards the end of his twenty year contract. With Goldberg concussing Hart and ending is career that alters everything. Now a short list to recap why the theorist believe it was a work: - All parties involved benefited in some way. - Bret Hart months prior to the event was on Raw talking about being screwed and pushed McMahon - The Wrestling with Shadows documentary. As Kevin Nash put it, and I'm paraphrasing, if Vince McMahon no sold the federal government up his rectum for three years do you really believe he would let himself be seen on camera selling a punch from one of the boys. - According to Dave Meltzer, who thinks the Screwjob was legit, report that a week prior to the event McMahon suggested a screwjob finish at the PPV and have Hart come out the next night on Raw and punch him. The same exact events that happened. Now some of the reason that people believe the screwjob was legit: - McMahon was a control freak and didn't like that Hart had creative control of his Hitman character and complete creative control in his last thirty days. Hart was the highest paid wrestler at the time. - The Wrestling with Shadows documentary is a legit documentary of the events. - the contract with WCW doesn't add up to what the conspiracy lays out. The theory was for years that Hart would work for WCW for three years. His contract with WCW was for five years though. - Bulldog and Neidhart leaving the WWF for WCW. But this could also play into the theory that it was a work.
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Post by k5 on Nov 14, 2018 20:42:38 GMT -5
you’d think a pilled out hbk would’ve at some point admitted it if it was a work...
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Post by cordless2016 on Nov 15, 2018 8:44:02 GMT -5
I’m with Bret all the way on this.
Vince is the one who offered him the 20 year contract and then broke it less than a year later. Vince claimed that he couldn’t pay Bret yet a few months after the screwjob Vince found a spare few million to lure Mike Tyson to the WWF.
Vince is the one who put the title on Bret at SS ‘97. He could have easily booked HBK to take it from Taker instead and could have avoided a lot of this.
Bret has stated that he’d have dropped the title to anyone except HBK and HHH as he was standing up to them for the locker room. I believe this as their politicking has been accounted for by numerous employees from that time. Hell the final showdown between Hart and Austin would have been a perfect way for Bret to go out.
I will say that not loosing in Canada was over the top, but from Bret’s point of view Vince had made him a villain everywhere except in Canada. Add loosing to HBK on top of it and you can see why he’d be miffed by the whole thing.
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jeffro2000
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Post by jeffro2000 on Nov 15, 2018 14:07:44 GMT -5
No way it was a work.
Someone would have admitted/took credit for it if it was. It would be the greatest work in history and Vince McMahon doesn't gloat about it? Come on.
The competition is dead, the parties involved are on good terms, if it was another story to tell it would be told.
They could've aired that story on PPV and made $$, DVDs, etc. The story told by Bret/Vince/HBK/Prichard/etc is what happened. Oftentimes real life is better than any script.
Also, WWE was struggling financially. WCW was kicking their but. You are about to lose Bret to WCW. (Vince's call/and I think it was more about not wanting to vs can't afford to pay Bret)
You Job Bret out like they did Razor/Diesel and everyone else. You dont screw him over and make him a bigger deal/story than he already was unless Vince feels he absolutely had to. You are just inviting more people to watch the competition.
People were wanting to see what Bret was going to do say and WcW botched it a bit.
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Post by Hulkster2001 on Nov 16, 2018 8:37:47 GMT -5
Not really, why wait that long? Why not keep Bret on after Montreal? Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? This logic is stupid, not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens and it happened on November 9, 1997. Of course not, none of this could be planned (injury and death) you cannot assume that is what we are saying. Owen didn't die because of the screwjob dude. Bret being bitter for 21 years - did you not get the point of him being a true pro? a legit worker??? could be part of the plan man. The whole Wrestling with Shadows thing... it is very coincidental isn't it? I know Owen didn’t die because of the screw job I was taking the piss out of the conspiracy theory. Bret’s being bitter is natural for him, he still b*^(#es about Hogan and HHH still. It was being filmed before the screwjob happened and they were filming.
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Post by Hulkster2001 on Nov 16, 2018 8:46:56 GMT -5
Not really, why wait that long? Why not keep Bret on after Montreal? Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? This logic is stupid, not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens and it happened on November 9, 1997. I want to break your questions down and answer them the best I can. I do not believe in the devil but do love devils advocate. So I will answer your questions with the best information I can provide with quick research on the topic of it being a work and not a shoot. I will try to answer your first and second question together. They kind of go together, the theory is that Vince wanted to get Bret Hart the big pay that he couldn't afford but felt he deserved (he was also starting to tinker with the idea of taking the company public and couldn't have such a long contract on the books). Bret at the time of his departure from the WWF was the highest paid wrestler on the roster. The contract was reported at $1.5 million a year. He didn't want to keep Bret Hart after Montreal because he felt that Bret's time was coming to an end and was ready to push his next star. The benefits of the screwjob is that Bret got richer, McMahon got his champ to get to his star, McMahon got the Mr.McMahon character. Was it planned for Bret to be bitter after 21 years? he is bitter Was it planned for Owen to stay and die? I think the better way to phrase your question is did the WWF commit homicide? In the case of Owen Hart, no they did not. As Hulkster2001 said not everything in wrestling is fake sometimes $#*% happens Was it planned for Bret to never return until 2010? According to the theorist the plan was for him to work for WCW for the length of his contract and return to WWF to get revenge on McMahon and then retire to the agent role he was going to have towards the end of his twenty year contract. With Goldberg concussing Hart and ending is career that alters everything. Now a short list to recap why the theorist believe it was a work: - All parties involved benefited in some way. - Bret Hart months prior to the event was on Raw talking about being screwed and pushed McMahon - The Wrestling with Shadows documentary. As Kevin Nash put it, and I'm paraphrasing, if Vince McMahon no sold the federal government up his rectum for three years do you really believe he would let himself be seen on camera selling a punch from one of the boys. - According to Dave Meltzer, who thinks the Screwjob was legit, report that a week prior to the event McMahon suggested a screwjob finish at the PPV and have Hart come out the next night on Raw and punch him. The same exact events that happened. Now some of the reason that people believe the screwjob was legit: - McMahon was a control freak and didn't like that Hart had creative control of his Hitman character and complete creative control in his last thirty days. Hart was the highest paid wrestler at the time. - The Wrestling with Shadows documentary is a legit documentary of the events. - the contract with WCW doesn't add up to what the conspiracy lays out. The theory was for years that Hart would work for WCW for three years. His contract with WCW was for five years though. - Bulldog and Neidhart leaving the WWF for WCW. But this could also play into the theory that it was a work. For the Owen thing I was taking the piss out of the theory, Like jeffro2000 said, why the f$%k would Vince not brag about this? The war is over, why keep it alive? - All parties involved benefited in some way Getting kicked in the head? Losing a top draw to the competition? Bret Hart months prior to the event was on RAW talking about being screwed and push McMahon That happened way earlier in 1997, they were building up to Mania 13 then. Sid was the champ
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Post by MKSavage on Nov 16, 2018 12:17:50 GMT -5
If I was Vince I would’ve had Taker retain the title at Summerslam (maybe still have Michaels hit him with the chair, refusing to count the pin, and Bret gets himself disqualified by attacking Michaels.) Then after that he and Bret would face off in the cell and Kane debuts costing Bret the match by attacking Taker then I’d have Kane defeat Bret in Survivor Series to showcase how serious of a threat he is to Taker who I would have him lose the belt at IYH: Degeneration X to HBK. They could have had Bret drop the belt to Undertaker anytime up till Survivor Series, Shawn could have interfered costing Bret the title which would have continued the build up to Survivor Series (Bret v Shawn). Then have Shawn and Bret face each other with the double DQ finish that was planned, then Bret leaves because he can't stand the way WWF is any more (Kayfabe, argued this at the beginning of 1997 which was the start of his heel turn). Have Shawn fight Ken Shamrock at IYH: D-X where the winner is the #1 contender to Taker's title. Then you would have Shawn vs. Taker at RR98 with Shawn going over, Shawn drops the title to Austin at WM14, nothing would have had to change, all those events (other than Bret dropping the belt to Taker) happened anyway.
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