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Post by warriorlynx on Jun 25, 2020 15:35:14 GMT -5
After last night's big "win" for NXT I have to say something. I'm a huge fan of AEW since the beginning (brought me back to wrestling again) but I feel they are going the way of WCW/TNA instead of being that true alternative brand. Case in point, ever since they brought in Hardy and Harper the product has become more stale and gives less time to other talent. Harper should not have been the leader of the DA.
I love Adam Page, MJF, Jungle Boy, Allen, Luchasaurus, OC even the legend Omega. Heck I was hyped out about Lance Archer with Jake fricken Roberts on his side (I wish he won the TNT title). I also think Jericho even though he is a former WWE guy was a really good heel old-school champion. Moxley was a great surprise in the beginning and so was Jack Hagar but that should've been it, enough WWE guys. I'm not interested in another WWE product, I don't want to see a whole bunch of WWE guys in (except the women's division I'm fine with that is where they lacked from the start). I'm interested in seeing the talent that they brought in from the start to grow in the company. I watched AEW for them and believe guys like Page will be a future AEW champ.
Does anyone feel the same way? Or is it just me. I want AEW to be successful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 15:46:59 GMT -5
I don't think you're gonna get much pushback on the whole Matt Hardy = bad thing here haha. Most of us are not real high on him.
That said, the big "win" was a large gap, but it was not as bad as it seemed or all that meaningful. Aew still won the only demo that tnt cares about, and the majority of NXT extra viewers came from the 50+ demo, which doesn't really matter. That's also an area where aew did below average this week. It's still far less about competing with NXT as it is competing with other programs, which is where they actually get hurt. There is not really all that much crossover, there's about 20% that haven't watched any of the products since covid, and another 10-15% that is really casual and flops between wrestling and other shows.
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Post by Yambag Jones on Jun 25, 2020 16:13:42 GMT -5
You're not as far off as you think. A lot of the stuff you're saying will be agreed with.
I've been against Matt Hardy in AEW the whole time. Anything "broken" can stay far away from my tv.
For the last 10 years, WWE has tried (most of the time succeeding) to sign every big name on the indies. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't worked for WWE in some way. It'd be really silly of them if someone leaves WWE and they have value to not sign them because they have the stink of the other place on them. That said, it is something they should be aware of. If someone like Ricochet and/or Cedric Alexander (I'm using them here because the WWE refuses to use them at all) hit the market, AEW would be stupid not to sign them and put them to good use.
I think you're only a little off on Brodie Lee. There's been some real swings and misses with him, but I'm happy he's there. In ring he's still solid. The Dark Order stuff can be off at times, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt because they're actually telling a story with them.
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Post by warriorlynx on Jun 25, 2020 16:22:13 GMT -5
You're not as far off as you think. A lot of the stuff you're saying will be agreed with. I've been against Matt Hardy in AEW the whole time. Anything "broken" can stay far away from my tv. For the last 10 years, WWE has tried (most of the time succeeding) to sign every big name on the indies. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't worked for WWE in some way. It'd be really silly of them if someone leaves WWE and they have value to not sign them because they have the stink of the other place on them. That said, it is something they should be aware of. If someone like Ricochet and/or Cedric Alexander (I'm using them here because the WWE refuses to use them at all) hit the market, AEW would be stupid not to sign them and put them to good use. I think you're only a little off on Brodie Lee. There's been some real swings and misses with him, but I'm happy he's there. In ring he's still solid. The Dark Order stuff can be off at times, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt because they're actually telling a story with them. I really think they should've tried to get in some WWE talent for the women's division, it was the division that was lacking from the start. I don't mind mid-card or undercard talent from WWE like how they got PAC (another favorite who should've been one of the top heels now), but too much WWE will just hurt the product. |
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Post by stc13 on Jun 25, 2020 16:34:36 GMT -5
To me being an alternative brand has far more to do with presentation, story telling, and in-ring freedom they allow the performers. And while they have drifted toward "sports entertainment" a few times, the product still feels distinctly unique. So I guess I'm just not seeing it the way you are.
But honestly I think we need to put an asterisk next to the past 4 months. They've had to work with a short bench, including 2 months of basically a handful of guys and some no name jobbers. They've had the Lucha Bros and Pac unavailable for nearly half the company's existence at this point, and those were upper card characters prior to COVID.
I don't have an issue with WWE signings. At this point, any wrestler with any notoriety outside of the IWC is going to have to be someone who was employed by WWE. With the exception of Hardy, who has been a big flop for me, each of those guys has been presented in a totally unique way and allowed to wrestle with more freedom than in the past. I think we really need to get beyond this idea that just because you worked in WWE, you don't have enough "indie points" or whatever to be embraced by the AEW audience. MJF, Jack Perry, Sammy (hopefully), Darby, etc will have long and successful careers if they stay on this path.
But they need to be built and developed over YEARS in front of a national audience to reach their potential. Doing that means they need to work their way up the card with wins over established names to a widespread audience. If you hot-shot workers that aren't established with the audience, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot in the long run. All of those guys are still heavily featured and their time will come. But if anything this roster needs more depth of established talent, not less. Wrestling fans have become used to the hot shot pushes that WWE seems to love, but rarely work. Let them take their time, enjoy the story, and let's see where those guys are in 3-4 years.
They've definitely been far from perfect. Going in Kenny was your top star, and he's basically spent the past year as a tag team wrestler. Yes, it's gotten Hangman over in great way. But I think they did it at the expense of Kenny, and I don't know that he will reach the heights he as at when the left NJPW again. The women's division has made strides, but it's still a mess. Britt is one of my favorite acts in recent memory at this point. But there is zero depth, and I still struggle to find compelling storylines. A few freak injuries and the division is very exposed right now.
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walkingturtles
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Post by walkingturtles on Jun 25, 2020 18:44:13 GMT -5
Essentially AEW was started by The Elite. Cody, Young Bucks, and Omega were so hot on the Indy scene with RoH and NJPW and the success of All In, they used that to create this promotion, and aside from Cody, they have not been featured. Same thing to a lesser extent with Adam Page who has since gotten himself over. Young Bucks should be on the show every week competing along with Omega and Page. Guys like Joey Janella, Sony Kiss, Jimmy Havoc and Kip Sabian, Marko Stunt are not the answer ever. Guys like Brian Cage and MJF should be featured as top heels consistently. We need more The Elite centric programming and then diverge off of it.
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Post by OTC Waxbender on Jun 25, 2020 18:53:34 GMT -5
Essentially AEW was started by The Elite. Cody, Young Bucks, and Omega were so hot on the Indy scene with RoH and NJPW and the success of All In, they used that to create this promotion, and aside from Cody, they have not been featured. Same thing to a lesser extent with Adam Page who has since gotten himself over. Young Bucks should be on the show every week competing along with Omega and Page. Guys like Joey Janella, Sony Kiss, Jimmy Havoc and Kip Sabian, Marko Stunt are not the answer ever. Guys like Brian Cage and MJF should be featured as top heels consistently. We need more The Elite centric programming and then diverge off of it. Yes. Use the Elites fanbase and reputation to your advantage. Feature them heavily on TV to build em up and then bring in other stars as credible threats to take it all away, get a rub and create more main eventers. MJF is already there. Idk where Mr Anderson is these days but he's always reminded me of The Miz in the sense of they can take any bs they're given and make it work. Although he's probably old these days. |
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BaLoR RoLLiNS
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Post by BaLoR RoLLiNS on Jun 25, 2020 19:18:57 GMT -5
I said the last night, if Brian Cage loses at Fyter Fest I'll be disappointed. The dude is a monster. And why, you bring in Brodie and Archer as monsters and both lose there first big match. Let's not do this once again within the span of 2 months.
I get covid has affected things, but since Jericho losing the title the AEW title seems the least important. We are getting more tag division stuff and weekly build on the TNT title than your TOP freaking title.
So, if Cage loses....then what?
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Post by hitmancmedge on Jun 25, 2020 19:39:01 GMT -5
I said the last night, if Brian Cage loses at Fyter Fest I'll be disappointed. The dude is a monster. And why, you bring in Brodie and Archer as monsters and both lose there first big match. Let's not do this once again within the span of 2 months. I get covid has affected things, but since Jericho losing the title the AEW title seems the least important. We are getting more tag division stuff and weekly build on the TNT title than your TOP freaking title. So, if Cage loses....then what? I think honestly that when the match was signed Cage was gonna lose, but I actually think they take the title off Mox now. I mean whether it’s his fault or not he is so freaking cold as world champion. Between the horrible Hager main event, his status as mid card world champion again, the Brodie Lee match on the PPV where that match was honestly the third or fourth most important match on the card and honestly Cage has been really really good on tv so far. I mean you almost have to take the title off Mox now? Right? It for whatever reason isn’t working and I think you completely kill Cage if he loses. |
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BaLoR RoLLiNS
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Post by BaLoR RoLLiNS on Jun 25, 2020 19:44:38 GMT -5
I said the last night, if Brian Cage loses at Fyter Fest I'll be disappointed. The dude is a monster. And why, you bring in Brodie and Archer as monsters and both lose there first big match. Let's not do this once again within the span of 2 months. I get covid has affected things, but since Jericho losing the title the AEW title seems the least important. We are getting more tag division stuff and weekly build on the TNT title than your TOP freaking title. So, if Cage loses....then what? I think honestly that when the match was signed Cage was gonna lose, but I actually think they take the title off Mox now. I mean whether it’s his fault or not he is so freaking cold as world champion. Between the horrible Hager main event, his status as mid card world champion again, the Brodie Lee match on the PPV where that match was honestly the third or fourth most important match on the card and honestly Cage has been really really good on tv so far. I mean you almost have to take the title off Mox now? Right? It for whatever reason isn’t working and I think you completely kill Cage if he loses. Thank you. And a great mouthpiece with Taz, Cage can be safe and entertaining for awhile. My issue with Dean Moxley is hes always been pegged as the crazy unhinged lunatic, but what is so crazy about him? |
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jun 25, 2020 19:52:44 GMT -5
Broken Matt is MONEY and WWE were crazy to not invest in that gimmick. I also like his multiple personalities when he comes out with a different character each week.
What I really love about the product is that you have stars like Darby, Page, MJF, Baker, Cassidy etc who have got themselves over and really stamped their characters in the wrestling world.
Many will disagree, but when I watch AEW I'm not really interested in guys like Cody and Omega who are considered the main draws. My attention tends to be turned to the other guys who are gradually evolving into the stars of the future.
If I were to complain it would be about this new guy Brian Cage getting an immediate World title shot without earning it. You don't debut a new guy and instantly put them in the World title picture.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jun 25, 2020 19:56:31 GMT -5
I think honestly that when the match was signed Cage was gonna lose, but I actually think they take the title off Mox now. I mean whether it’s his fault or not he is so freaking cold as world champion. Between the horrible Hager main event, his status as mid card world champion again, the Brodie Lee match on the PPV where that match was honestly the third or fourth most important match on the card and honestly Cage has been really really good on tv so far. I mean you almost have to take the title off Mox now? Right? It for whatever reason isn’t working and I think you completely kill Cage if he loses. Thank you. And a great mouthpiece with Taz, Cage can be safe and entertaining for awhile. My issue with Dean Moxley is hes always been pegged as the crazy unhinged lunatic, but what is so crazy about him? I'm a huge Moxley fan, but I've not enjoyed his title reign. The night after he won the belt he even gave a heartfelt speech and praised the fans which is something Dean Ambrose would've said, not a crazy lunatic. |
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Post by hitmancmedge on Jun 25, 2020 20:08:26 GMT -5
Broken Matt is MONEY and WWE were crazy to not invest in that gimmick. I also like his multiple personalities when he comes out with a different character each week. What I really love about the product is that you have stars like Darby, Page, MJF, Baker, Cassidy etc who have got themselves over and really stamped their characters in the wrestling world. Many will disagree, but when I watch AEW I'm not really interested in guys like Cody and Omega who are considered the main draws. My attention tends to be turned to the other guys who are gradually evolving into the stars of the future. If I were to complain it would be about this new guy Brian Cage getting an immediate World title shot without earning it. You don't debut a new guy and instantly put them in the World title picture. He earned it by winning the ladder match to get a world title shot. |
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BaLoR RoLLiNS
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Post by BaLoR RoLLiNS on Jun 25, 2020 20:46:28 GMT -5
Broken Matt is MONEY and WWE were crazy to not invest in that gimmick. I also like his multiple personalities when he comes out with a different character each week. What I really love about the product is that you have stars like Darby, Page, MJF, Baker, Cassidy etc who have got themselves over and really stamped their characters in the wrestling world. Many will disagree, but when I watch AEW I'm not really interested in guys like Cody and Omega who are considered the main draws. My attention tends to be turned to the other guys who are gradually evolving into the stars of the future. If I were to complain it would be about this new guy Brian Cage getting an immediate World title shot without earning it. You don't debut a new guy and instantly put them in the World title picture. He earned it by winning the ladder match to get a world title shot. Truth. Dont have that stipulation on a match and not expect a situation like this. After the Taz and Darby situation though, I fully expect this feud to be addressed down the line. Path of Cage vs Relentless |
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jun 25, 2020 21:05:06 GMT -5
Broken Matt is MONEY and WWE were crazy to not invest in that gimmick. I also like his multiple personalities when he comes out with a different character each week. What I really love about the product is that you have stars like Darby, Page, MJF, Baker, Cassidy etc who have got themselves over and really stamped their characters in the wrestling world. Many will disagree, but when I watch AEW I'm not really interested in guys like Cody and Omega who are considered the main draws. My attention tends to be turned to the other guys who are gradually evolving into the stars of the future. If I were to complain it would be about this new guy Brian Cage getting an immediate World title shot without earning it. You don't debut a new guy and instantly put them in the World title picture. He earned it by winning the ladder match to get a world title shot. Even still he walked in and was booked in the title picture. |
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Post by K5 on Jun 25, 2020 21:21:04 GMT -5
totally agreed on hardy.
on Brody though, they took a risk. and any company willing to take a risk on a talent that has potential has my commitment as a fan. I agree that it’s somewhat fallen flat, but it was also done prematurely. Brody lost before he’d really won.
either way, all fair points for sure.
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Post by K5 on Jun 25, 2020 21:23:09 GMT -5
He earned it by winning the ladder match to get a world title shot. Even still he walked in and was booked in the title picture. I think with Brian Cage, since he’s an established talent within the wrestling world, he brought enough hype to position him in that spot - a lot of people were wondering just when he was gonna show up, and the people that haven’t heard from him are wondering what the hype is. |
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Post by sonstuds on Jun 25, 2020 21:47:13 GMT -5
Hardy's definitely been a miss for me so far and if there's any part I'd be inclined to fast forward through, it'd be his stuff. I never wanted them to sign him.
I've loved Brodie since I started re-watching in '16 so I'm glad he's getting a chance to do his thing, but I thought it was too soon for him to be facing Moxley for the title, doubly so if he wasn't going to win it. I'm with you completely on it being bad booking if Cage doesn't win the belt. As you said it's Lance Archer all over again.
I'm still expecting Rusev to show up relatively soon. After that I think that'll be it for WWE guys coming in.
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BaLoR RoLLiNS
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Post by BaLoR RoLLiNS on Jun 25, 2020 22:13:53 GMT -5
If Cage does lose do we see EC3 and have a battle OHIO
EC3 VS MOX
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Post by Bandalero on Jun 25, 2020 22:49:31 GMT -5
Great discussion guys! AEW also has drawn me in like no other. I've spent YEARS fast forwarding through RAW and SD, YEARS - the product has been stale for over a decade - it is not fun to watch. This AEW roster keeps me interested and entertained...except Matt Hardy ha (glad to see the majority of us agree).
AEW did the right thing by giving Mox the belt when the crowds were there, he was white hot and the whole build was money. The mistake they've made is to keep it on Mox through this pandemic. No crowds to feed off of, now he's quarantined because of his wife and the WWE's social distancing practices. It has really killed any momentum he had of taking the AEW brand and growing it. What they should have done was give Jericho the belt back quickly. He's been available for the last three months and is as solid a heel champ as you'll ever get. Imagine if he gloated for the last three months, sticking the AEW title in our faces each week only to be usurped whenever the crowds were allowed back - whoever the face is would have gotten a Road Warrior style pop. Now we have Mox just cutting promos and in rushed feuds, I feel sorry for the guy, he's always in the right place at the wrong time.
I know Brody Lee has fans, but what a wrong choice for the Dark Order Exalted One. He should have been paired with Jake Roberts, hell he should have formed a faction with Lance Archer and Jake! That would have been formidable.
Inner Circles and Death Triangles, "too many shapes!" - Trent. Honestly, take a hot global tag team like the Lucha Bros and a solid upper-card act like PAC and throw them randomly together? Then all of them had travel restrictions due to COVID - talk about killing any momentum. This faction was a terrible idea from the start - they don't need each other.
With all that said, AEW is using the veterans in the best way I've ever seen - from coaches to managers to mouth-pieces - they are all doing well and giving back to the business. A lot of those young guns on the roster should be sitting under the learning tree with those guys still around/alive. Tully's promo a few weeks ago was pure fire, showing them how it's done old school.
And there in lies the biggest differentiating factor! WWE could care less about making new stars. AEW is slowly but surely molding future mega stars so I have to tip my hat to the Elite guys doing the right thing by their younger talent.
On another note...
I don't know what "Fyter Fest" means, I think I read somewhere this was going to be their UK PPV or something, but maybe they can turn this into their version of Clash of Champions. Have a Fyter Fest a couple times a year to fuel the top 4 PPVs. Just a thought.
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