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Post by hbkjason on Aug 7, 2020 14:36:48 GMT -5
Hi guys, This board is by a mile my favorite place on these forums. I love reading peoples thoughts and opinions on old school wrestling. One of the coolest things to me is always how certain wrestlers or angles click for some people, but not for others. Anyway, I have this idea for a new thing/series/whatever you want to call it that I think may be fun. The idea is that I come up with a "What If" situation and we discuss how it could have worked or how it could not have worked. To start with I have this question for you What if Bret Hart had feuded with Vader instead of Shawn Michaels?
Shawn Michaels is in my top three of all time, but lets face it he is a massive reason while Vader failed to take off in the WWF. I was thinking after rewatching SummerSlam 1996 recently that had it been Bret Hart going against Vader that he very well could have been the monster Vader that had terrorized WCW. I know that Bret and Vader did tangle the following year, but by then the damage was done to Vader. In my opinion, Bret would have had a match that showcased what a monster Vader is and that would have set him up to be the monster Vader instead of the big fat dude who used to be scary. Do you guys feel that Vader's WWF run would have been different had it been Bret he had his first big feud with instead of Shawn? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 14:45:24 GMT -5
Yes I do. Bret would have likely not minded losing to him especially if he was promised he'd beat him for the title back.
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Retrospect
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Post by Retrospect on Aug 7, 2020 15:36:27 GMT -5
I think it would have been great. Bret always had good matches with the big guys imo. Shawn was to focused on being “the man” at the time and his matches kinda suffered in mid-late 96. I think Bret would have been able to work Vader’s style a little better and would have gotten him over more.
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Post by The Brain on Aug 7, 2020 15:43:35 GMT -5
I liked the interactions they had in 97 so no doubt a feud in 96 wouldve been great. As Retrospect said, Bret always worked well with the bigger guys so this would be no exception. And I'm sure Bret wouldnt be yelling at Vader during a match like HBK did at SSlam 96. |
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Post by K5 on Aug 7, 2020 15:50:07 GMT -5
this absolutely would've been a fun feud. shame it didn't happen!
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Post by jason88cubs on Aug 7, 2020 17:35:34 GMT -5
Bret would take a loss and be ok with it unlike Shawn
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Warriah'
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Post by Warriah' on Aug 7, 2020 17:43:09 GMT -5
If their tangle in the Fatal Four Way was anything to go by then it'd have been awesome
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 17:57:50 GMT -5
The December 1996 in your house was called “it’s time” because the plan was for Vader to go into that show as WWF champion. If Shawn Michaels wasn’t such an bunghole back then...
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Retrospect
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Post by Retrospect on Aug 7, 2020 18:01:26 GMT -5
Bret would take a loss and be ok with it unlike Shawn What Shawn didn’t understand is that you can take a loss and still put yourself over. You can also win while putting your opponent over. Ric Flair made a whole career out of doing this. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Aug 7, 2020 21:59:10 GMT -5
Bret would take a loss and be ok with it unlike Shawn What Shawn didn’t understand is that you can take a loss and still put yourself over. You can also win while putting your opponent over. Ric Flair made a whole career out of doing this.
Out of all of Shawn's title losses, he mainly got stripped.
Stripped of the IC Title in 1993 Stripped of the Tag Titles in 1994 Stripped of the Tag Titles in 1995 Stripped of the IC Title in 1995 Stripped of the WWF Title in 1997 Stripped of the Tag Titles in 1997
It's all Shawn knew how to do. He didn't understand the concept of getting pinned for a title to change hands.
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Warriah'
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Post by Warriah' on Aug 8, 2020 4:04:47 GMT -5
Bret would take a loss and be ok with it unlike Shawn What Shawn didn’t understand is that you can take a loss and still put yourself over. You can also win while putting your opponent over. Ric Flair made a whole career out of doing this. Ironically losing at Wrestlemania 10 DID make Shawn's career. |
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Post by hbkjason on Aug 8, 2020 4:13:28 GMT -5
I have said it a million times, but no one has "lost" more titles without getting their shoulders pinned than HBK lol.
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Post by JokerFC on Aug 8, 2020 9:44:03 GMT -5
Excellent topic...brilliant actually.
I think the feud would have been a lot better with Hart man...& here's why.
1) Hart respected Vader as a worker & admired the brutal style he worked. Said it made a face wrestler look like a million dollars even in defeat.
2) hart was one of the guys(alongside Cornette & Ross) that talked Vince out of a gimmick change for Leon.
3) Hart worked GREAT matches with big guys....plus his grounded style would have complimented Vader better.
4) Harts match with Vader on Raw, his interactions with him on Final 4 & the Flag match at Bad blood were all sharp as f*ck IMHO.
Ill also say this....Bret had a keener eye for what the fans wanted & would respond to than HBK at that time. Hart would not have allowed Vince to book Vader to run from him. When that happened @ IYH: International Incident? SSlam 96s main event was murdered in cold blood. This & the SS96 match with Vader were critical errors by Vince...the fans started to turn on HBK not long after.
None of the above would have happened with Hart. He would've steered that feud properly & played the underdog babyface going into SS, put up a heroic fight and dropped the title in such a way the fans would be gasping to see him get his own back.
The way the Vader feud was booked for HBK was DEATH for the character...I mean FFS Hogan had a harder time with Vader in WCW than Michaels...& thats all anyone needs to hear on that.
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Warriah'
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Post by Warriah' on Aug 8, 2020 10:47:39 GMT -5
Excellent topic...brilliant actually. I think the feud would have been a lot better with Hart man...& here's why. 1) Hart respected Vader as a worker & admired the brutal style he worked. Said it amde a face wrestler look like a million dollars even in defeat. 2) hart was one of the guys(alongside Cornette & Ross) that talked Vince out of a gimmick change for Leon. 3) Hart worked GREAT matches with big guys....plus his grounded style would have complimented Vader better. 4) Harts match with Vader on Raw, his interactions with him on Final 4 & the Flag match at Bad blood were all sharp as f*ck IMHO. Ill also say this....Bret had a keener eye for what the fans wanted & would respond to than HBK at that time. Hart would not have allowed Vince to book Vader to run from him. When that happened @ IYH: International Incident? SSlam 96s main event was murdered in cold blood. This & the SS96 match with Vader were critical errors by Vince...the fans started to turn on HBK not long after. None of the above would have happened with Hart. He would've steered that feud properly & played the underdog babyface going into SS, put up a heroic fight and dropped the title in such a way the fans would be gasping to see him get his own back. The way the Vader feud was booked for HBK was DEATH for the character...I mean FFS Hogan had a harder time with Vader in WCW than Michaels...& thats all anyone needs to hear on that. Super Shawn's 1996 booking puts Hogan, Cena and Austin at their peaks to SHAME. His stuff with Vader was awful, his match with Owen at IYH was insufferable, the rumble 96 booking was so absurd he quite literally eliminated 1000 lbs of Yokozuna and Vader at the same time without breaking a sweat. It's impossible to have someone shoved down your throat like that and have you like it. I always say Shawn was born heel, but maybe under the right circumstances he could have got over in the 90s as a face. That 96 booking was NOT the way. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2020 11:07:42 GMT -5
I think he would have had a waaaaaay better WWF run if the Shawn feud never happened
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Post by cordless2016 on Aug 9, 2020 8:46:59 GMT -5
Excellent topic...brilliant actually. I think the feud would have been a lot better with Hart man...& here's why. 1) Hart respected Vader as a worker & admired the brutal style he worked. Said it amde a face wrestler look like a million dollars even in defeat. 2) hart was one of the guys(alongside Cornette & Ross) that talked Vince out of a gimmick change for Leon. 3) Hart worked GREAT matches with big guys....plus his grounded style would have complimented Vader better. 4) Harts match with Vader on Raw, his interactions with him on Final 4 & the Flag match at Bad blood were all sharp as f*ck IMHO. Ill also say this....Bret had a keener eye for what the fans wanted & would respond to than HBK at that time. Hart would not have allowed Vince to book Vader to run from him. When that happened @ IYH: International Incident? SSlam 96s main event was murdered in cold blood. This & the SS96 match with Vader were critical errors by Vince...the fans started to turn on HBK not long after. None of the above would have happened with Hart. He would've steered that feud properly & played the underdog babyface going into SS, put up a heroic fight and dropped the title in such a way the fans would be gasping to see him get his own back. The way the Vader feud was booked for HBK was DEATH for the character...I mean FFS Hogan had a harder time with Vader in WCW than Michaels...& thats all anyone needs to hear on that. Super Shawn's 1996 booking puts Hogan, Cena and Austin at their peaks to SHAME. His stuff with Vader was awful, his match with Owen at IYH was insufferable, the rumble 96 booking was so absurd he quite literally eliminated 1000 lbs of Yokozuna and Vader at the same time without breaking a sweat. It's impossible to have someone shoved down your throat like that and have you like it. I always say Shawn was born heel, but maybe under the right circumstances he could have got over in the 90s as a face. That 96 booking was NOT the way. It blows my mind after seeing fans reject the “super pushes” for Luger and Diesel in the preceding years that Vince felt the best course was the push HBK of all people even stronger. He had the perfect blue-print to build Shawn and that was by basically doing what he did with Bret from 1991-1994 but instead Shawn was booked like Hogan. Vader legit running away from Shawn, after squashing guys like Razor not long before this, killed his WWF run. There was no coming back from that. |
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Warriah'
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Post by Warriah' on Aug 9, 2020 17:15:59 GMT -5
Super Shawn's 1996 booking puts Hogan, Cena and Austin at their peaks to SHAME. His stuff with Vader was awful, his match with Owen at IYH was insufferable, the rumble 96 booking was so absurd he quite literally eliminated 1000 lbs of Yokozuna and Vader at the same time without breaking a sweat. It's impossible to have someone shoved down your throat like that and have you like it. I always say Shawn was born heel, but maybe under the right circumstances he could have got over in the 90s as a face. That 96 booking was NOT the way. It blows my mind after seeing fans reject the “super pushes” for Luger and Diesel in the preceding years that Vince felt the best course was the push HBK of all people even stronger. He had the perfect blue-print to build Shawn and that was by basically doing what he did with Bret from 1991-1994 but instead Shawn was booked like Hogan. Vader legit running away from Shawn, after squashing guys like Razor not long before this, killed his WWF run. There was no coming back from that. Diesel's booking sucked ass, and in a way he honestly wasn't booked strong enough. He didn't get a clean win over Bret in his first PPV title defence, and his big threat for Summerslam was  ing Mabel. Luger, I think they hurt him bad by not having him win the belt from Yoko at SS. But even then he was over right up til the Rumble. The fans pop loud when he's declared the winner, they just wanted Bret more. Shawn should have always been booked as an underdog, just like Bret. |
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Post by JokerFC on Aug 10, 2020 13:02:31 GMT -5
Super Shawn's 1996 booking puts Hogan, Cena and Austin at their peaks to SHAME. His stuff with Vader was awful, his match with Owen at IYH was insufferable, the rumble 96 booking was so absurd he quite literally eliminated 1000 lbs of Yokozuna and Vader at the same time without breaking a sweat. It's impossible to have someone shoved down your throat like that and have you like it. I always say Shawn was born heel, but maybe under the right circumstances he could have got over in the 90s as a face. That 96 booking was NOT the way. It blows my mind after seeing fans reject the “super pushes” for Luger and Diesel in the preceding years that Vince felt the best course was the push HBK of all people even stronger. He had the perfect blue-print to build Shawn and that was by basically doing what he did with Bret from 1991-1994 but instead Shawn was booked like Hogan. Vader legit running away from Shawn, after squashing guys like Razor not long before this, killed his WWF run. There was no coming back from that. Ya see Vader didnt squash RR though man but f*ck yeah he should have....Hall had a competitive match with Vader at IYH Good Friends Better Enemies...& the match ends in defeat for Hall but Vince crows on about him and what a great competitor he was. Hall was leaving...Vader was being booked as the next monster...He should have tarred the living sh*t outta Hall. But he didnt....another poor sign for Vaders push. |
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Post by K5 on Aug 10, 2020 13:05:17 GMT -5
It blows my mind after seeing fans reject the “super pushes” for Luger and Diesel in the preceding years that Vince felt the best course was the push HBK of all people even stronger. He had the perfect blue-print to build Shawn and that was by basically doing what he did with Bret from 1991-1994 but instead Shawn was booked like Hogan. Vader legit running away from Shawn, after squashing guys like Razor not long before this, killed his WWF run. There was no coming back from that. Ya see Vader didnt squash RR though man but f*ck yeah he should have....Hall had a competitive match with Vader at IYH Good Friends Better Enemies...& the match ends in defeat for Hall but Vince crows on about him and what a great competitor he was. Hall was leaving...Vader was being booked as the next monster...He should have tarred the living sh*t outta Hall. But he didnt....another poor sign for Vaders push. should've left hall a bloody pulp. the things vader could've done...it's sad because you see the wind go out on him with motivation in the ring by 98, and then they do that terrible 'i'm fat' gimmick with him. like what the hell |
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Post by rowdy1971 on Aug 10, 2020 13:09:02 GMT -5
Bret would have had a classic feud with Vader with all the points from everyone else in this thread. Bret would make Vader look like a million bucks and actually put him over, well, maybe not in Canada.  |
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