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Post by JokerFC on Feb 9, 2021 10:23:38 GMT -5
Ok so Evolution as a faction ran from 2003 to 2005...Orton & Batistas injuries hurt things a bit but when they got rolling they were a great faction. It was intended to be a 00s version of the 4H and it did what it said on the tin. They were involved in many memorable angles...members exits were a hit and miss but it ended up all good for Batista & Randy. The entrance theme by Motorhead was also a killer
But my question is....should they have given some other guys a chance when Batista left in 2005? Post WM should HHH & Flair have rebuilt with Mark Jindrak & Lance Cade? I think both would have been ideal in the faction & it would have given them a leg up.
Both Flair & HHH were still going to be heels for the forseeable future so I think they should have given it a shot. HHH & a few others said there were early plans to introduce more guys during the Batista feud & he wasn't against it but it never came to anything.
Thoughts?
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bige
Superstar
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Joined on: Apr 22, 2014 3:51:21 GMT -5
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Post by bige on Feb 9, 2021 12:15:50 GMT -5
Didn’t triple h get sick of it half way through
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Feb 9, 2021 12:50:18 GMT -5
Evolution in 2004 had so many fun matches and feuds. HBK, Benoit, Shelton, Foley, Eugene, La Resistance, Jericho, Edge, there was so much for those four to work with on PPVs and Raw shows.
As for adding in new talent, I don't think they wanted Evolution to be that aspect of the Horsemen. I remember when they put Batista in at the beginning I thought, "why not Sean O'Haire?! He's tall, big, muscular and can do stuff off the top rope." But as it turns out, Batista was perfect for this group.
I can't see Jindrak and Cade being in it. Especially Cade.
To think back at the WWE at that time, in 2004 if they were to replace Orton, the perfect guy would have been Shelton Benjamin. He was the IC Champion, and as what we see with the Hurt Business now, Shelton looks great in a suit and looks the part.
So to me, it would have went Triple H, Flair, Batista and Shelton.
Now, once Batista leaves, that's a pretty big dude, you kind of wanna replace him with someone like that. I don't think it could happen, I think once Batista left the group would have been over.
The only other option at that time would be that once Batista left, if Flair retired from in ring competition. Triple H could have brought in a tag team along side he and Shelton, and Joey Mercury and Johnny Nitro would have been a good team to bring in. They would pull off the suits well. And having Melina there too in the group with them, would add the kind of image the Horsemen had with Woman along side them in the 90s.
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Post by rkmo: Autonomous Meat Shield on Feb 9, 2021 13:30:28 GMT -5
Isn't it said that Jindrak was to originally have been a part of it, but he rubbed Trips the wrong way backstage?
Anyway, I'm not sure how the faction could have protected its elite status with a revolving door of characters. The privilege and exclusivity did so much to build their image. Batista, and to an extent Orton, projected the right image and held the right psychology to make the most of their time, uncertain how well others could have carried the banner.
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Post by Dan on Feb 9, 2021 14:31:29 GMT -5
Yeah there's a documentary on the Network about Evolution, and it does a fairly in depth piece with Mark Jindrak on how he was pencilled in once Batista got injured, but he was often immature and rubbed Triple H the wrong way. The group was perfect as it was IMO.
I like the idea that Nitro and Mercury could have switched to Raw and added themselves into the Group, but I would only have had them as an addition to the existing four, not a replacement. I think the Group did lack a legitimate Tag Team, despite the fact Batista and Flair won the Gold. I'd liked to have seen Flair kept purely as the Manager role, and perhaps used once or twice on a rare special match occasion. Batista would have been the muscle, Orton the prodigy and future, Nitro and Mercury the World Tag Champs, and Triple H the World Heavyweight Champion.
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Post by JokerFC on Feb 9, 2021 14:52:22 GMT -5
Great points all
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Post by The Brain on Feb 9, 2021 15:14:55 GMT -5
Never was a fan of Batista/Orton but they were perfect for this group.Jindrak had the look/ability but in the end he wouldnt of made the impact those two did.Cade no chance in hell.
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Post by hbkjason on Feb 10, 2021 1:35:28 GMT -5
I loved Evolution, such a badass group with one of the most awesome entrance songs of all time. My dad loves Motorhead and he always said that he felt like this song felt more like a Motorhead one than The Game.
I have to be boring here and say that I loved Evolution as it was and think that the run was perfect. I probably would not have kept it going once Orton and Batista left. Also the whole Batista turn was so well done, probably one of the last great turns the WWE did in my opinion.
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Post by TKO Propagandist on Feb 10, 2021 1:45:27 GMT -5
Really liked Jindrak but he wasn't cut out to be involved in the main event. Just missing that intangible "it". Lance Cade, I never liked to be honest. Just plain boring to me. Like others have stated, group's run was pretty perfect as it was. I was glad they waited it out despite Batista & Orton's injuries. Talk about the worst possible start for both men. But it all worked out.
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Post by Kill Em' All on Feb 10, 2021 2:27:10 GMT -5
Jindrak had a really good underrated look to him as that big white meat baby face; but I can't see any good reality with him taking a place as prominent star. Maybe; a better reality as a semi comedy act in a tag team or mid card title run. Maybe a spot on the WWEECW?
I've read on forums prior about cancelled plans; and it was pretty interesting. I saw Randy Orton was originally slated to be the breakout baby face he was at Summer Slam 04; but at WrestleMania XX going over HHH. And many don't think Orton was ready at Summer Slam; I think WrestleMania XX victory was way to premature. It sounds like a good SVR storyline though; lol.
And the more common is; if Triple H did work Tuesdays. Where HHH goes to SmackDown in 2004 to carry the brand; where he engages in a Summer program with Eddie Guerrero. With HHH either taking the title off Eddie at Summer Slam; or if Eddie in that world is still anxious being the guy. GAB 04. Most likely we a ''reign of terror'' that's hyrbid between 2003 HHH and JBL OTL. With either; Brock Lesnar being slated for big WrestleMania 21 program if they could even keep those two away from eachother till WM 21. Or; Lesnar still leaves and we get John Cena taking the gold at WrestleMania 21.
Lots of reports say HHH was suppose to turn face for a big run against Lesnar in 2004/2005; and I don't think turning HHH in 04 was plausible. I think the fans would s*** all over it.
So maybe Orton; sort of builds himself as the New man of Evolution; with him slowly gunning for the title by Fall 2004.
So maybe say by Unforgiven 2004; Orton takes the gold off Beniot. Orton I don't think was a really stable baby face in 2004. I think if Orton in OTL had reign from Summer Slam to Royal Rumble 05; that would be fine. But; headlining WrestleMania 21 I don't think Orton was nowhere ready for it.
I think Orton can go in three directions.
He's at the top of the world and carrying the stable; but drops the title say around Royal Rumble 2005 as a heel. And has this in sense of coming of age moment. Breaking away from Evolution; but failing in every sense to regain the title. But; looks to make this impact at WrestleMania and bigger then the title; thus face Taker. And we get that story.
Orton holds the gold in 2004; and is slowly turning face. And winning the hearts of the fans. Defeating Beniot/Shawn at Unforgiven/Taboo Tuesday. Earning the respect of the fans; and Beniot/Michaels. Followed by star studded victory against the Demon Kane in a triumph uphill battle at Survivor Series 2004. Followed; by Orton and Ric Flair getting into friendly rivalry going into NYR with Flair not truly believing Orton's the man. Leading to a Steel Cage; with Orton winning.
However; Orton has became Face and boiling point has hit with Batista and Flair costing Orton the title at Royal Rumble 2005 to I really don't know who could take the gold and run Mania program.
We could get Orton going into WrestleMania 21 against Batista; with Orton winning. But the program not finishing with HHH returning to Raw in a bid to bring order to his creation; and backstabbing Orton.
WWE runs a gamble; and has solid Orton Heel run from the Summer of 2004; through WrestleMania 21. With Orton leading Evoulution; and Triple H teturning to Raw after WrestleMania 21; insert whatever reason. And growing drift between the two with HHH either taking the gold off Orton and maybe feud through the Summer of 2005.
Minus me rambling on that; I think WWE had clear start and end goal of the program. With the goal to create Orton as a star; and see where they could take Batista with. I don't think Flair and HHH would be interested in trying to build up Cade and Jindrak to feud with Batista/Orton. I think the angle hit it's end. But it's a cool what if. I think it would be hard giving them another two stars that would match the chemistry and use the build. Maybe someone like a Matt Hardy or Shelton Benjamin.
I liked how we got the angle; even if they botched the Orton title run. HHH slowly destroying his relationships; and greed overwhelming him over the 3 years. However; Batista and Orton to some extent in kayfabe still see it as some form of what got them to the dance. But; variety of future feuds stemmed from this. It truly was a gift. And I love full circle stories. And the fact; Orton was robbed of his first world title; made a impact but never scored that final victory coming up short. But; Rated RKO; followed by creating the Viper. And we see Orton hit his stride by 2007.
Eventually Orton grew to create his own faction; and the same concept played out with Legacy. Fantastic long term story telling. this wasn't planned since 2002-2009; of course; but it played out beautifully.
On a side note; I love the SVR 09 storyline with HHH; and him struggling between DX and Evolution. Very cool thread.
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Old Zeke
Main Eventer
'Fraid old Zeke, he rides up here with me. Can't trust a pig with watermelons, you know.
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Post by Old Zeke on Feb 10, 2021 3:50:50 GMT -5
I think it had run its course through natural story progression, if I'm honest. The whole concept of the group was Flair and HHH grooming Orton and Batista to become top stars, and then them breaking out on their own after HHH became consumed by his own desperation to cling to power.
Orton had a couple of false starts, but it's hard to imagine him as anything other than a top star now. Batista took the ball in 2005 and ran with it, hard. Evolution had accomplished what it set out to do initially, and set up years of stories:
-HHH trying to recapture his youth with DX.
-The Batista/Taker/Edge rivalry.
-Orton forming Legacy and ascending to the top by any means necessary.
-The Authority.
-Batista's retirement.
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Post by cordless2016 on Feb 12, 2021 9:22:52 GMT -5
I honestly feel that Evolution had run its course. After Batista and Orton’s rise to main event status, another 2-3 year run with HHH, Naich, and two more guys would have felt like a boring retread.
Plus for HHH, this was the second group that was built to watch his back and make sure he remained the champ (DX being the first), so in a way it was already a retread for him.
I loved Evolution but I think it ran its course by 2005.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Feb 13, 2021 18:12:18 GMT -5
Evolution was great and I loved their theme song. However by 2005 I was exhausted with the group and was relieved when Batista turned on them.
Also the group just wasn't the same after Orton was kicked out. Stables are never the same when a member leaves and it makes them feel incomplete.
Evolution as a trio didn't do it for me.
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Post by PJ on Feb 13, 2021 18:30:45 GMT -5
Yeah they said in the documentary that they were going to bring Jindrak in so they told him to come to film their entrance video. But they soon realized when Orton and Jindrak were together they got real childish to the point where they were either playing with the child’s toy that would say an animals name and the sound they made. Or pretending they had one saying the animal and the sound it made and Triple H couldn’t take it and pulled the plug on Jindrak being in Evolution. Or something along those lines.
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Post by Nivro™ on Feb 13, 2021 18:45:40 GMT -5
Evolution is probably the best faction in the past 20 years but like all factions when the core/original members leave/change...its never the same. Nobody could replace Batista/Orton in their roles where it could have worked. With the exception of the swap from Ole to Barry Windham, its never been done before where its actually worked and there's even people still today that would take Ole over Barry.
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Post by Evil Abed on Feb 13, 2021 18:50:27 GMT -5
Yeah Evolution really did all that they could, by the time Batista had left it had run its course and succeeded in doing exactly what it was meant to do — push Orton and Batista to main event status.
I can’t imagine a single other person in that group, certainly not folks like MNM, Cade, Jindrak, even Benjamin. It just doesn’t fit.
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Post by drifter on Feb 14, 2021 16:57:17 GMT -5
I'm glad they didn't go the Horsemen route of bringing in new members. That's one thing that will always be a negative to the Four Horsemen legacy, was several members over the years that had no right being in that group. When Evolution was at full strength, all four men just fit perfectly, and I'll say I think Evolution is the best attempt made to make a modern day Horsemen stable. Evolution ran it's course, and when it finally ended, it was the right time to do it, as one of the things it was intended to do was help make stars out of Orton and Batista, and it helped do that.
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johnnyhanson21
Main Eventer
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Post by johnnyhanson21 on Feb 28, 2021 14:12:32 GMT -5
The group did the job it need to do in making Batista & Orton main event stars and two of the biggest stars created in the past 20 years.As far as continuing the group without Orton & Batista can't really think of a good fit in '04 or '05 to take their place.Shelton could have worked to a degree but even as great as he was in the ring always lacked the mic skills and true drive behind the scenes.Johnny Nitro could have probably filled the Orton role but then we wouldn't have gotten MNM and again Nitro never seem to have that drive to be the best like Batista & Orton did.Lastly the only other names that might have worked was Edge & Christian but by '05 both where established names on their own and Edge was already on the road to being a main eventer without the help of a group.Maybe just spitballing a new Evolution could have been Triple H,Ric Flair,Christian(Orton) & Tomoko(Batista) but wouldn't have been as good as the original.
Anyways with that all said it was for the best to end the group when they did,gave us and awesome feud with Triple H/Batista where Triple H made him a made man,then turned into Triple H/Flair which would turn out to be the last great feud in Flair's career and lastly paved the way for the DX reunion with HBK in the summer of '06(which sucked but the fans ate it up and wouldn't have happened it Evolution was still around)
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