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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Feb 24, 2021 2:19:44 GMT -5
For the last few years, we have had women's royal rumble matches, elimination chamber matches, and ladder matches on the same night as the men.
While it makes sense from some standpoints as to why you would have them on the same show, but there is ultimately one huge downside. Overexposure/devaluing of stipulations and the talent overall.
Another issue is that the women often get put down for not working quite the same as the men, or the men are unable to make the audience care as much as they would if they hadn't just seen the exact same match with smaller wrestlers who just do not work as well, or work differently and should not be presented the same.
As someone who is happy to see women getting fair opportunities in wrestling, I want those opportunities to be lucrative and well received by fans.
This is why I wonder why WWE does not alternate the schedules of the women's rosters stipulation matches and the men's?
There are various booking issues with having gimmick pay per view events instead of having issues that warrant stipulations to begin with, but just to keep things simple, I think it makes sense to just ask the question under the assumption they won't stop doing stipulation based events like TLC, Chamber, Hell in a Cell etc.
Personally, I think it would make sense if the women's royal rumble happened at a different point in the year altogether so people aren't sick of it. I would rather Evolution, the all women's event be an annual thing instead of Hell in a Cell because they do Breast Cancer Awareness Month promotion that whole month anyway.
It makes more sense to make that the month where Women essentially become the most important thing in the company and get to main event shows building up to Evolution.
If we can ever get past discrimination on the basis of sex in wrestling, hopefully we can just acknowledge that the wrestlers who are under 5'10 and under 190lbs simply cannot be expected to perform in the exact same way as athletes who are 6 foot plus, on a weight spectrum of 250 to 400lbs,and that not be seen as a fault of anyone, but biology and testosterone production. Just like how we had to stop belittling smaller male wrestlers and just highlight their strengths with different strategies. Every wrestler has weaknesses and a good booker hides those weaknesses as best they can. I think its better to give the women equal treatment in that sense by booking them with the effort to highlight them in mind. So that they can shine without always being compared to the men right in that moment.
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Post by screech on Feb 24, 2021 4:51:49 GMT -5
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Post by Evil Abed on Feb 24, 2021 5:18:15 GMT -5
Kids... dont drink and post.
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Post by greenjack1992 on Feb 24, 2021 5:31:08 GMT -5
What you're pointing out is spot on, but it's not the attempted equality of outcome that's to blame, it's the themed PPVs.
By turning MITB, HIAC, TLC and Extreme Rules into events, they've painted themselves into a corner because they HAVE to have those matches on those nights even if the feuds don't call for them, and equality means men and women have both have their matches that night. Same goes for the Royal Rumble.
If they had a schedule like this it could work much more fluidly:
Royal Rumble - Mens Royal Rumble, Women's Royal Rumble WINNER gets their title shot
No Way Out
WrestleMania - Men's Royal Rumble WINNER gets their title shot, Women's MITB match
Backlash
Judgement Day
Vengeance
SummerSlam - Men's MITB match
Unforgiven
Clash of Champions - All champions defend championships in a variety of stipulations
Stomping Grounds
Survivor Series - Mens traditional tag match, women's Royal Rumble match
Armageddon
Then things like gimmick matches (Tables, Ladder, TLC, Extreme Rules, EC, HIAC etc.) just happen as and when they're needed or appropriate for a feud throughout the year, and NEVER on the same night. If the men have had their HIAC or EC match at No Way Out, the women have theirs at Unforgiven for example.
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Quazimoto
Superstar
Joined on: Feb 4, 2014 12:37:37 GMT -5
Posts: 997 
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Post by Quazimoto on Feb 24, 2021 6:34:58 GMT -5
The only one I have an issue with is the Royal Rumble match. I've always thought gimmick matches should be used where it's appropriate for a feud or storyline and see no reason why that shouldn't be the case whether it's a men's feud or a women's feud. The Elimination Chamber kinda fits as a gimmick event. As does Money In The Bank. And obviously, women certainly deserve to have their own Royal Rumble. It's just that the Royal Rumble matches themselves are long and having two on one card takes away from the huge boost that the winner gets. A guaranteed title match at WrestleMania (in kayfabe terms) is as big of an opportunity as anyone will ever get in WWE and the winners deserve to have it highlighted individually. You can't do that properly when there's two matches on the same event as one will always sort of overshadow the other. Neither can you take away one. So, if it were me in charge, I'd split the Royal Rumble into a two night event. One night being the traditional Royal Rumble with the men's match (and additional men's matches). The other night I'd call Royal Rumble Evolution and it would feature the Women's Royal Rumble match as well as a host of other women's matches. Alternate year to year which happens on night one and which on night two.
Other than the Royal Rumble, only Money In The Bank and maybe Elimination Chamber should be gimmick events. The rest of the gimmick matches should take places when they're appropriate for the feud or the storyline.
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Post by Mr. Show on Feb 24, 2021 8:12:11 GMT -5
Im fine with 2 Rumbles in one night, because those are my favorite matches of the year and I don’t get bored with them. I also agree with what someone else said about using Hell in a Cell and TLC matches more sporadically and have them fit the feuds instead of just doing them because of what month it is. Money in the Bank, I think its time to retire. Its run its course and become stale. Bring back King of the Ring in its place with the 2002 stipulation where the winner gets a title shot at Summerslam. Im kinda bored with Elimination Chambers too. They can be entertaining matches but doing them every year between Rumble and Mania makes their outcomes always soooooo predictable.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Feb 24, 2021 10:11:34 GMT -5
I remember when Hell in a Cell matches and Elimination Chamber matches happened at a PPV to end a feud, but having PPV's named after those matches, forcing wrestlers to compete in those types of matches that normally wouldn't any other time is good too....
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Post by bababooey on Feb 24, 2021 14:20:48 GMT -5
I don’t mind 2 Royal Rumble matches and 2 MITB matches in the same night. Equal treatment on matches that have big storyline implications.
They could do something about Elimination Chamber and Hell in a Cell though. Don’t need the two matches to be at different times, just keep it to 1 of each match annually. For Elimination Chamber this year, we didn’t even get a women’s one. We got 2 men’s matches. It could easily be kept to 1 match. Either 1 men’s singles, 1 women’s singles, 1 men’s tag team, or 1 women’s tag team. Same for Hell in a Cell. They don’t need to crowbar 2 matches into the show.
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kinnikuman
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 6, 2020 21:42:25 GMT -5
Posts: 4,674
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Post by kinnikuman on Feb 24, 2021 17:34:39 GMT -5
I'd like someone to sell me on "womens wrestling". I don't care for it ... at all. I'm not saying they can't have talent (a simple glance to Japan will show you they can put on five star matches on the regular), I'm just saying ... why? Why are women needed on male dominated shows? To cover some PC blowback you may get if you don't have them? Steph obviously has a major hand in it, especially NXT. But, why not just have your own show? If there are fans out there, you'll have viewers. Why are you trying to make the shows fair and balanced? This is what I want someone to sell me on. Look, I'm married and the Internet has sexy women on it ... so I don't need to see some skin in a wrestling show. I don't think anything special about a great womens match either. I can see those happen with the men. Big deal. If I was really into womens wrestling, like I said, Japan exists.
So yes, why should I care about RAW/Smackdown/NXT/AEW womens divisions? I'm happy to change my mind about it all.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Feb 24, 2021 17:47:03 GMT -5
Kids... dont drink and post. Don’t get banned again... don’t get banned again.. |
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Feb 24, 2021 17:48:26 GMT -5
What you're pointing out is spot on, but it's not the attempted equality of outcome that's to blame, it's the themed PPVs. By turning MITB, HIAC, TLC and Extreme Rules into events, they've painted themselves into a corner because they HAVE to have those matches on those nights even if the feuds don't call for them, and equality means men and women have both have their matches that night. Same goes for the Royal Rumble. If they had a schedule like this it could work much more fluidly: Royal Rumble - Mens Royal Rumble, Women's Royal Rumble WINNER gets their title shot No Way Out WrestleMania - Men's Royal Rumble WINNER gets their title shot, Women's MITB match Backlash Judgement Day Vengeance SummerSlam - Men's MITB match Unforgiven Clash of Champions - All champions defend championships in a variety of stipulations Stomping Grounds Survivor Series - Mens traditional tag match, women's Royal Rumble match Armageddon Then things like gimmick matches (Tables, Ladder, TLC, Extreme Rules, EC, HIAC etc.) just happen as and when they're needed or appropriate for a feud throughout the year, and NEVER on the same night. If the men have had their HIAC or EC match at No Way Out, the women have theirs at Unforgiven for example. I’m really glad to see other people recognizing the issue of this poor booking. I like your schedule suggestion. 🤜🤛 |
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Post by Yambag Jones on Feb 24, 2021 18:06:07 GMT -5
Or just stipulation matches. It's not a gender thing.
Having an annual show dedicated to Hell in a Cell as opposed to using the stipulation when it makes sense (and sparingly) ruins the special attraction feel.
Imagine if there were only like a dozen Hell in a Cell Matches ever instead of there being over 40.
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Post by rkmo: A Lack of Fortitude on Feb 24, 2021 18:16:42 GMT -5
The problem does sizably lie in having the booking of gimmick matches be reliant on the calendar, not so much necessity for a certain feud. Men's or women's, not much thought goes into making the match make sense in context: it's just "we've got So-and-So PPV coming up this month, who we got that's available to fill that out." Hurts the female talent even more that the gimmick PPV's were already played out and cheapened way before the women had their fair deals. I understand there's a business side of the argument for theme events, having arenas being accessible for the structures and it being financially more feasible to transport and install them for more matches on a single night. But a more deliberate process creatively would go a long way in making matches and the gimmicks mean something.
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Deleted
Joined on: Sept 27, 2024 11:15:35 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2021 18:46:03 GMT -5
I'd like someone to sell me on "womens wrestling". I don't care for it ... at all. I'm not saying they can't have talent (a simple glance to Japan will show you they can put on five star matches on the regular), I'm just saying ... why? Why are women needed on male dominated shows? To cover some PC blowback you may get if you don't have them? Steph obviously has a major hand in it, especially NXT. But, why not just have your own show? If there are fans out there, you'll have viewers. Why are you trying to make the shows fair and balanced? This is what I want someone to sell me on. Look, I'm married and the Internet has sexy women on it ... so I don't need to see some skin in a wrestling show. I don't think anything special about a great womens match either. I can see those happen with the men. Big deal. If I was really into womens wrestling, like I said, Japan exists. So yes, why should I care about RAW/Smackdown/NXT/AEW womens divisions? I'm happy to change my mind about it all. Here's my perspective on it. For context, I coach track and field, a relatively gender-equal sport all things considered. The men still get way more press coverage than the women, etc, but women do get roughly the same amount of competition opportunities as the men at both amateur and professional levels, unlike something like say soccer or basketball. I primarily coach high school kids, and primarily women. Not intentionally, just where I'm from it happens to be a pretty female dominated sport at the moment. It definitely shapes my perspective on this, so I think it's worth mentioning. By not supporting female wrestling, same as any other female sport, we are actively excluding an entire sex from a profession. Yes, it's an entertainment profession, as opposed to something like a doctor, teacher, etc. Still though. I don't like the idea that if I end up having daughters, I need to somehow encourage them to participate in sports despite them not having the same opportunities they would have if they were male. So yes, I suppose in a way, it is to avoid some "PC blowback", but it's well justified blowback. Representation matters. |
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Post by Tim of thee on Feb 24, 2021 23:01:10 GMT -5
I honestly like the gimmick matches so long as they’re booked appropriately
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shenmue
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 30, 2007 10:12:45 GMT -5
Posts: 2,730
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Post by shenmue on Feb 25, 2021 13:16:55 GMT -5
The biggest problem with gimmick matches for me is the lack of blood unless it's an accident. Cage/hell in a cell/elimination chamber/ street fight/no dq matches in a heated rivalry always come across better with blood, makes the match type come across as dangerous and needed to settle the score.
I remember as a kid hbks reaction to the hell in a cell, he knew storyline wise he was going to get wrecked and he sold it.
Last year Drew told Orton he was going to bleed all over the cell, we all knew that wouldn't be the case and if the wwe announced right now that they will never have a cage, hell in a cell or elimination chamber match again i wouldn't be disappointed.
If you can't do these type of matches properly just don't even bother.
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Post by POOR-ly Cuyler on Feb 25, 2021 13:25:40 GMT -5
kinnikuman So I like tacos, but they probably make them better in Mexico, so should I just not have or enjoy American tacos because Mexico exists? Just let people enjoy what they enjoy and don’t worry too much about trying to like something you don’t. I don’t like AEWs women’s division, but I don’t go say they shouldn’t do it. Wrestling is so niche nowadays that you’re not going to please the masses, but there’s something for everyone. You’re not going to sell me on Game of Thrones or Star Wars because I’m just not into it. But it would be like saying why even have Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings exists... why make Guardians of the Galaxy, Star Wars exists...Why listen to Greta Van Fleet, LED Zeppelin exists...etc For most people it would be “why watch modern wrestling, classic wrestling exists...”
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Post by Valbroski on Feb 25, 2021 14:19:06 GMT -5
Or just stipulation matches. It's not a gender thing. Having an annual show dedicated to Hell in a Cell as opposed to using the stipulation when it makes sense (and sparingly) ruins the special attraction feel. Imagine if there were only like a dozen Hell in a Cell Matches ever instead of there being over 40. Agreed. Stop over saturating the  ing product with things that are supposed to be spectacles. |
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celflessness
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Feb 5, 2020 7:30:40 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by celflessness on Feb 25, 2021 16:28:20 GMT -5
I would alternate. Even years you get a male Royal Rumble and a female Elimination Chamber. Odd years you get a female Royal Rumble and a male Elimination Chamber.
The issues with treating the men and women the same are no different to me than treating RAW and Smackdown the same. Anything that causes duplication is a detriment. NXT have the right idea, inventing their own gimmicks. The women should get the same treatment. A focus on innovation, not equality.
I'd go one step further. Only RAW wrestlers get to be in the Elimination Chamber. Only Smackdown get TLC. Only RAW get men's tag titles. Only Smackdown has a crappy midcard belt. Don't make every show, every division, every show, every gender, well-rounded. Make them unique with stark differences.
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Post by CM Tusk on Feb 25, 2021 18:58:08 GMT -5
You are odder.
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