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Post by Chip on Sept 7, 2021 9:55:25 GMT -5
All I ever see here is "this show sucks"/ "how do you watch this?" / "I fell asleep during ____ (insert match)"
So I ask.....what is your solution? There's hardly any constructive criticism with bitching anymore, it's all: This sucks, 50/50 booking, Vince is old and out of touch, and so on.
I have my complaints about the WWE, but I actually provide alternative solutions, and reasons for my complaints. I feel like so many fans now are just conditioned to be negative about everything. RAW is 3 hours, you cant have 3 hours of nothing but 4-star heart pounding amazing wrestling matches. You also cant have everyone the internet likes WIN all the time and can't have every storyline be the equivalent of Austin v McMahon.
I honestly think people are so caught up in the nostalgia of "because wrestling" they forget that the WWE has been operating the way they are currently for 20 years. Tell me what was going on on RAW in 2005. Tell me every storyline with every member of the roster without going back and watching stuff or reading recaps.
You can't. More than half the crap that happens in wrestling is FORGETTABLE. It's just cogs in the wheel for the experience.
I'm pretty sure if you lay out results of RAW in any given year you'll find a ton of "50/50 booking" it just wasn't talked about back then.
The bigger picture now vs back then, is that there is a major negative stigma with the WWE. A lot of the guys their real fans actually loved watching have been let go or released and gone on to AEW. AEW has a ton of momentum because they are hiring all these guys with the "NOW they're gonna be USED right!!!!" indy mark bullcrap. (what exactly has Rusev/Miro done in AEW that was any different from the way he was booked in WWE.....I'll wait) and that negativity breeds further where most fans are literally watching every WWE show EXPECTING it to suck....then because they don't blow you away with amazing TV, it was a waste of time and RAW should go back to 2 hours, etc.
It's making me wonder why anyone actually watches wrestling....like, do you want to just see amazing matches all the time? Do you care about anyone? Are you actually a fan of anyone? I see a lot of sh*t talking about Drew McIntyre now. If you like Drew...why do you sh*t on everything he does if its not an amazing booked world title run? People saying Drew is jobbing now are the same people saying his title run was boring. What do you want him to do??? The guy has to lose once in awhile, and by him getting put in the US title picture it elevates Priest and that belt. Everyone said they don't want to see Drew v Bobby anymore, so they stop doing that and move Drew to other things and now its just "well Drew is a mid-card jobber and the stuff with Jinder sucks." So in the end it's really just that nothing they could do would actually make you happy because you've already set your own expectations of how he should be booked.
There is just such a constant stream of negativity about EVERYTHING lately and its honestly getting out of control.
People need to take their "booking wrestling for dummies" books and put them away for a little while.
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X-27
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Post by X-27 on Sept 7, 2021 10:24:16 GMT -5
Make wins and losses matter.
It's pretty hard for me to take Cena seriously as a contender for Summerslam when he lost to Reigns at No Mercy 2017.
Raw and Smackdown are mainly loaded with pointless tag matches that mean absolutely nothing. Nobody benefits from anything. It straight up feels like it is just there to fill in time.
Why should we care about the product when Vince clearly doesn't even care about it himself?
Also...Miro>>>>Rusev.
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The Real Chillary
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Chillary since day one ish
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Post by The Real Chillary on Sept 7, 2021 10:43:24 GMT -5
Considering you're always moaning, it's pretty rich.
It speaks for itself really. Look at how many posts are in show threads compared to five or ten years ago. People aren't posting in them for a reason. Because the product is THAT bad. Is there a magical fix to make things better? Of course not. But accepting there is a problem is half the battle. When the company is so blind to their own issues, it's causing people to rebel. The Logan Paul segment with Morrison is a prime example.
There is one good thing in WWE at the moment, and that's Roman Reigns. He's a real character with good booking. Everything else is just a waste.
Everything is presented with little care or respect. No thought is put into any of the writing, and it's just scraped along. I'll use the 24/7 Title as a controversial example. I know it's hated as it's the most basic level of comedy, but if they actually put effort into it, it has limitless potential. You have an infinite amount of possibilities and situations for changes to happen, people to get involved etc. Instead we get the exact same scenario for months and months.
Give every single person on your roster a storyline. It's really not that difficult. They so desperately want to be an entertainment company, then produce segments and angles like a TV show. The cinematic matches had so much potential but outside of WrestleMania they were so lazy and unimaginative with it.
There are a billion different movies, games, books, shows to steal ideas from and re-work. It's insulting to the fans to coast on your name brand.
2005 was actually one of my favourite years of WWE. The almost year long Raw vs Smackdown fued was great. They had Survivor Series as a pay off and started building it around the Rumble. You're telling me you can't do long term stuff like that now?
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Quazimoto
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Post by Quazimoto on Sept 7, 2021 10:57:20 GMT -5
I generally find something to enjoy, even on the worst shows. That's said, I do find it rather alarming the rate at which WWE is letting some really good and potentially really good people go knowing they're headed to AEW. Leaves me wondering just how badly the lock downs hurt their finances or that those rumors of the company being for sale soon are true.
That said, I think the solution to a lot of WWE problems is really obvious. I mean, I'm sure there'd be some finagling and whatnot with them being on two different networks and both said networks obviously wanting the best show they can get to attract viewers. But, in a perfect world where it was just what's creatively best for business heres what I'd do...
Somehow, begin a storyline where NXT invades because they're tired of being thought of as the developmental brand or not on par with RAW and SmackDown. This eventually leads to NXT taking over SmackDown. So, you'd have WWE RAW and NXT SmackDown. This capitalizes on the growth that NXT has had since 2014. It also condenses the WWE roster and will not only prevent a lot of endless rematch, but also offers a bigger variety of fueds and a higher level of competition which, in turn, makes being a champion mean more.
You bolster the NXT roster a bit with some larger known names like Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Cesaro, Seth Rollins, Asuka, and other such superstars. But, the real key to this plan working is that WWE and NXT have to be run differently by different people who don't write for or work on the other show. NXT SmackDown should be more pro wrestling focused while WWE RAW is more sports entertainment focused. They need to look different with different ascetic as well so that it almost makes you forget they're actually the same company. You can still have a draft to mix things up once a year, but you'd have to limit the number of superstars switching brands (ie not half the show, which basically defeats the purpose).
Then, where NXT used to air (or just on the network), you make a new show called WWE Rising Stars. This is where your younger wrestlers get seasoning in front of a camera and crowd and such. Only, it's a sort of competition style show that's kinda of a year long tournament. Say you have 20 or so superstars who compete in various matches throughout the year. You get 3 points for a win via pin or submission, 2 points for a win via dq or count out, 1 point for a draw, and 0 points for a loss. At the end of the season, the four or six superstars with the highest point totals face off in an elimination match and the winner gets a guaranteed contract for the main roster and a spot in the Royal Rumble match. Do the same concept for women as well, though probably with less competitors.
I think this would dramatically help a lot of WWE current problems. At least the ones that aren't just related to lazy writing, an over emphasis on one or two superstars, or a completely out of touch boss with a a gaggle of yes men around him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 11:09:58 GMT -5
There's a few things I can hopefully contribute here. I know I'm likely one of the 'AEW Smarks' that everyone in the WWE section hates, but I grew up on WWE (I started watching in 1993, Jesse Ventura is my favourite commentator of all time, and Ric Flair winning the '92 rumble may still be my favourite match of all time), It was how I got back into wrestling everytime, including 2017. It was never the only thing I watched, even as a kid, but it's always been a thing I watched whenever I've watched wrestling. I am not enjoying 2021 WWE at all and am barely even watching any of it anymore, but I try not to post a lot of that in here.
I've got a few honest things that I can comment here.
1) Specifically regarding Rusev, but more to where that attitude comes from. The biggest differences for Miro, Moxley, etc are fairly simple and two-fold. 1st is more authenticity in their promo work. It may not always be perfect, they may get tongue tied once in a while, but it's always authentic and it always comes from them compared to a team of writers. 2nd is a more free flowing in ring match. AEW still uses agents to produce matches, but they're produced to a far less micromanaged level. Not NJPW simple of "Hey, 35 minutes, rainmaker", but far simpler than having a ref calling every single spot from someone in the back for the entire match. They will all wrestle a lot more freely when they aren't in WWE and things are very constricted and limited. That's what Miro is doing different in AEW. The booking is also different (and in my opinion much better, but that can be a matter of taste of course so in that sense being 'used better' is a matter of preferring a booking method) but the real differences are in the freedom for promos and in ring work. If I saw those same freedoms in WWE consistently, I likely wouldn't be all that bothered by the booking decisions.
2) I honestly don't see much difference in the way you complain to everyone else. If you want to eliminate negativity, looking at your own posts is going to be a good way to start. I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I hate the crazy camera cuts too, I've had to stop watching in the middle of matches because I was getting motion sickness from them.(Something I commented on 1 time, and then got made fun of by next man's blah blah). I see as much, if not more, negativity in the threads from your posts as anyone else on this site. There are a couple people in the AEW section that are always super negative too, and regardless of any constructive solutions, the constant negativity really sours an experience. Constructive criticism is a thing, but it's not the same as 'constructive complaining'. There are people on this site (finnbalor, hitmanmcedge, etc) who watch a ton of different things, and do a very good job of not being overly negative about anything even if there are plenty of things they don't enjoy about any given product. The majority of the WWE faithful on this site do not accomplish that about even their own product. It's not AEW smarks that drove me away from any WWE threads when I am watching, it's the WWE hardcores that complain about everything, regardless of if there's actual solutions presented. It's still negativity, just negativity with a suggestion attached. I also got driven away because apparently if I find ratings interesting and fascinating and legitimately enjoy discussing them, I get essentially told by a former mod that it's unwelcome and I'm an idiot for wanting to talk about it.
3) There is 100% something to the concept of going in expecting it to suck, etc. Confirmation bias an all that. Live crowd attitudes towards their shows really changes the perception. Overall, AEW crowds go into their shows expecting them to be awesome, and everything feels more awesome because of it. Then the crowd gets hyped, and it makes it seem more awesome at home. WWE crowds kinda have the opposite effect right now. They go in expecting things to suck, complain when they suck, and then it comes across terrible on TV. NXT crowds are a totally different breed of annoying that get their own separate category of go away heat. They're 2nd worst only to a GCW crowd, who get their own category for being awful.
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Post by k5 on Sept 7, 2021 11:23:49 GMT -5
I might make another post where I get more in-depth to the topic, but I just want to point out the humour in that you’re stating that others don’t post constructive criticism about the wwe product.
there’s an absolute ton, consistently. for every simple ‘this show sucks’, there’s someone posting a proper analysis and options they could’ve taken.
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Post by Evil Abed on Sept 7, 2021 11:31:46 GMT -5
At this point Ive been watching WWE for over 20 years and have never felt this removed from the product. I haven’t watched a full episode of Raw, Smackdown, or NXT probably since before the pandemic.
I’m not trying to compare product to the late 90’s early 00’s by any means but growing up in an era where it felt like if you missed a weekly episode that you were almost guaranteed to miss something special where as nowadays it just feels like the show is going through the motions, there’s no urgency, there’s no must see programming.
Chillary put it best. At this point it just feels like coasting/laziness based on brand name alone.There’s no point to wins or losses, anyone could walk in and demand a title match based on their past successes (perhaps a metaphor for the posiition the company is in now relying on their past). Nothing happens organically, if you’re not part of the agenda then you’re getting punished because you shouldn’t be getting a better reaction than this other guy that “we as a company” want. Basically fans tune out because its not fun. I’m not saying AEW is perfect, but watching their shows I have that feeling of “fun” that I haven’t felt watching a WWE show in a LONG time.
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Sept 7, 2021 11:54:28 GMT -5
Lose the long wrestling matches!
That match last week with McIntyre, Sheamus and Priest had like 2 or 3 commercial breaks in it. Long matches like that seems pointless, and saved for the PPV each month.
Go back to having 5 - 10 minute matches, backstage skits and such. Not saying the Attitude Era is the greatest ever, but you have to admit, the stuff they were able to pack in a 2 hour episode of Raw was fulfilling. Now?? A three hour Raw and we feel drained and tired from boredom.
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The Real Chillary
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Chillary since day one ish
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Post by The Real Chillary on Sept 7, 2021 12:14:54 GMT -5
more than half the crap that happens in wrestling is FORGETTABLE. its just cogs in the wheel for the experience. Going to take another stab at this, because it just dawned on me. WWE has been going forever. You've had hundreds and hundreds of wrestlers and characters come in and out. You'll always have more. Look at something like Marvel. Going for longer. They have thousands upon thousands of characters to draw upon. But imagine if they only put out Avengers books and all the lesser characters were just stood in the background splash pages with no dialogue or notable development. Would you be happy reading stories about only Iron Man or Hulk, bankable characters. Or would you like to see Punisher get some storylines, and cross over with someone like Daredevil who is being fleshed out in another book. I hate saying the Attitude Era was the best, because I know it wasn't. But it is a measuring stick because of the heart that was put into it. Remember this? From main eventers, to midcarders to a jobber. Connections and fueds across the card and rosters lead to a great segment. The RTC is a great example. They fueded with everyone, and it often lead to people from different ends of the card making the save and teaming up. You never knew what to expect or what could happen.
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Post by Nivro™ on Sept 7, 2021 12:40:16 GMT -5
Solution: 3 words
Monday Night Football
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Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Sept 7, 2021 12:48:01 GMT -5
Solution: 3 words Monday Night Football ‘So more XFL?
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Post by CM Poor on Sept 7, 2021 12:54:52 GMT -5
This is kind of a weird indictment. You lead off with what is your solution? there's never any constructive criticism with bitching anymore, which would imply that you'd like to see more people offering up what they'd do in the booker's position, but then you close with people need to take their "booking wrestling for dummies" books and put them away for a little while, which implies that you don't actually want them to do that. Also, this you? this crap is just stupid. thats all there is. its not "good heel heat", its just lame and boring, and uncreative as I generally agree that a positive approach, with a greater focus on what one does like is healthier and more pleasant to be around than a focus on what one doesn't enjoy wrought with negativity, but I also tend to think that focusing on the people that choose to focus on the negative is just as negative approach. Tune that sh*t out, man. It's really not that difficult. Like, we always tell people that if they hate Raw/SmackDown/WWE so much, they should just stop watching. Why TF wouldn't the same be true if you can't stand the negative outlook of others? Tune it out. Generate some distance between them and you, surround yourself with more like-minded people who are there for the the thrill or the fun or the escape or whatever it is you personally get out of wrestling and just let it be fun again. The best thing I ever did for my own enjoyment of wrestling as an adult was to tune out 90% of the dirt-sheet/internet/social media bullsh*t. People put so much focus on what's next that they won't allow themselves to just tune out and enjoy what's happening now. Do you know how stupid-fun wrestling is when you're so blinded by all the Yes! Yes! Yes! talk of Daniel Bryanson showing up in AEW that you plumb forget that Adam Cole is up in the air? Or how your heart can skip a beat when Becky Lynch's music hits once you put your phone down or shut off your computer and just lose yourself in what's in front of you? As a life long fan, I have no problem saying that wrestling is one of the dumbest forms of entertainment on the planet...but it's fun, and I love it. I kinda lost myself in the "behind the scenes" sh*t for a while, and it put a real damper on the whole experience. It became a whole lot more fun when I just retrained myself to shut my brain off for a few hours and enjoy the spectacle in front of me. I was a whole lot dumber as a kid growing up watching this stuff, and that's why it worked so damn well on me. Just be dumb. It's okay.
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Post by Sizzle on Sept 7, 2021 13:33:47 GMT -5
My main issue with WWE is how many of my favorite characters have departed WWE in recent memory. Believe it or not, a lot of people like to tune in to watch their favorite wrestlers wrestle and appear on the show in a meaningful capacity. One thing I feel that WWE is getting right as a bunch of guys are being released is that they have done a good job of creating some new characters and whether or not people agree with me I feel they've made some "stars", just not at the level of guys like Cena, Reigns, etc. Guys like Matt Riddle, Drew McIntyre, and Damian Priest are all relatively new additions to the scene in WWE and they all feel legit. Riddle is over as hell and it was so obvious when I was at the show last night. McIntyre gets the crowd roaring and although he's not in the main event picture right now, he's still a big deal (and he's DEFINITELY NOT jobbing like I saw someone mention here not too long ago). Priest pinning him was a big deal and it mattered when he did it.
I don't think I'm overly negative but there are things that I have a hard time getting enjoyment from right now (Karrion Kross, Fiend/Bliss/Lilly, Doudrop) and with those I feel it's just a few character adjustments that are needed to make them more interesting. Raw being three hours is something I feel will always be to its detriment and unfortunately that won't change for the foreseeable future. Three hours tends to make watching the show a bit of a drag and instead of seeming like a packed show with eventful moments like Dynamite or Rampage, so much happens on Raw but it feels like nothing happened because of how plodding the show is. I'm by no means an AEW stan but something I like that AEW does is how it seems like there's a lot more value in fan input and because of that AEW cares about the guys people enjoy watching rather than letting them go. AEW has a lot of hype around it right now and that can definitely be blinding, but AEW is doing a lot right.
I went a bit off topic, but whatever. I don't think putting a lot of weight in what a lot of people say on here is ever a good thing. People are gonna fantasy book and then get mad when what they wanted to happen doesn't happen. People are always going to justify a decision they like while chastising someone else for doing the same. I don't know. A lot of times there are some quirks that I can't really pinpoint and I'm never gonna have the end all be all solution on how to make another wrestling boom or how to make Raw the greatest TV show on air but I just try to enjoy what I can.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Sept 7, 2021 13:33:52 GMT -5
This thread is incredibly ironic coming from you. You're one of the most negative members on the entire board and in my 10 years here I cant remember seeing you say anything positive about WWE. I think WWE is beyond fixing at this point. I haven't enjoyed WWE in years. So I just stopped watching. All of my favorites besides Edge are in AEW now, (Jericho, Punk, Bryan, Christian). It's probably been close to a decade since I've watched an entire episode of RAW or Smackdown from start to finish. One way I think the product can improve is by turning the roster over much more often than they do. The roster is BEYOND stale at this point. Rollins, Reigns, and until recently Wyatt have been in the main event scene for close to 7 years. Orton's been there for almost 20 at this point. Lesnar has been one of the main guys for a decade now. Until last year Styles was one of the main guys for years. Bryan was one of their main guys for years, Kevin Owens has been for years. This roster is almost the exact same as it was 5 years ago. It's stale as . AEW feels fresh, even though they are using some of the same guys. You specifically mentioned Rusev/Miro in your post. The difference is that in AEW he feels like himself. He's not just some evil foreigner like he was in WWE just because he's from another country. He actually feels like a threat to the top talent in AEW. He sounds like himself. This is a very unpopular opinion, especially online, but I think changing NXT is the way to go. The guys that are there get way overexposed by the time they make it to RAW. I personally wouldn't have ever put it on TV. I get that this opinion isn't shared by 99 percent of fans online.
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Post by cordless2016 on Sept 7, 2021 13:40:24 GMT -5
Wins and losses MUST matter. AEW’s system isn’t perfect, but they try to make the rankings mean something. It forces their writers to stick within the rules they’ve established and make more coherent storylines (and not have Sheamus/Drew fight for a title shot despite the champ beating them both 7 days ago).
Establish a tier system of your clear main eventers, upper midcarders, lower midcarders, and jobbers. The WWE successfully did this not only in the attitude era, but in the ruthless aggression era as well. We knew where every performer “fit” in the kayfabe heirarchy, and it made it more fun to follow performers who moved up the card and finally broke into the main event (Benoit and Eddie being great examples). Today, it makes no sense that so many former WWE and Universal champs are randomly fighting in the midcard when they supposedly already reached the top of the WWE.
Tag team wrestling needs to matter. In rare cases, random teams like RK-Bro work. In most cases, they don’t. Keep established teams together and stop making the tag titles an afterthought. This is another area where AEW is killing it.
Acknowledge past feuds. Someone else said it was hard to buy Reigns/Cena as a super fight when Reigns beat him clean back in 2017 (as well as kicked out of his finishers multiple times). With their latest feud, they never acknowledged this, and I don’t get why. Stop treating the fans like idiots and acknowledge they’ve worked together before. It adds to the story/doesn’t detract from the current feud.
Better commentators that arnt fed lines from a near 80-year old man.
Stop forcing everyone to work the “WWE Style.” This plays into everyone on the roster feeling the same and why some guys like Nakamura struggle because they aren’t allowed to work a style that got them over in the first place.
Just the ones off the top of my head.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 13:47:50 GMT -5
all i ever see here is "this show sucks" "how do you watch this?" "i feel alseep during ____ (insert match)" so i ask.....what is your solution? there's never any constructive criticism with bitching anymore Who exactly on this forum are we offering our “constructive criticisms” to? Are there secretly members of WWE’s creative team lurking around taking notes? This seems less like a “Let’s all come together and offer our creative input” thread and more of a thinly veiled anti-AEW meltdown after the weekends PPV.
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Post by CM Poor on Sept 7, 2021 13:50:54 GMT -5
all i ever see here is "this show sucks" "how do you watch this?" "i feel alseep during ____ (insert match)" so i ask.....what is your solution? there's never any constructive criticism with bitching anymore Who exactly on this forum are we offering our “constructive criticisms” to? Are there secretly members of WWE’s creative team lurking around taking notes? This seems less like a “Let’s all come together and offer our creative input” thread and more of a thinly veiled anti-AEW meltdown after the weekends PPV. Which is really funny, when you consider that, amid the inevitable choirs of "WWE is doomed" and "DAE how is Raw going to follow that?!", a lot of the feedback for the PPV has just been the sort of "Wow, that was fun! I missed this feeling! I can't wait to see what comes next!" vibes that you'd almost hope anybody who willfully subjects themselves to a selected form of entertainment is able to take away with them when the lights come up and everyone goes home. The nerve.
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Post by LA Times on Sept 7, 2021 13:52:37 GMT -5
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Sept 7, 2021 14:16:07 GMT -5
all i ever see here is "this show sucks" "how do you watch this?" "i feel alseep during ____ (insert match)" so i ask.....what is your solution? there's never any constructive criticism with bitching anymore Who exactly on this forum are we offering our “constructive criticisms” to? Are there secretly members of WWE’s creative team lurking around taking notes? This seems less like a “Let’s all come together and offer our creative input” thread and more of a thinly veiled anti-AEW meltdown after the weekends PPV. This is entirely what this thread is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 15:19:23 GMT -5
The OP is saying wwe has been operating like this for 20 years. That’s why viewership has gone down every year since! Ever since they bought WCW and killed their competition they’ve gone creatively bankrupt and more egotistical. Why couldn’t they put effort in the shows for the last 20 years like they did during the attitude era? If they ever get good and kill AEW they will go back to being bad again.
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