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Post by MKSavage on Nov 21, 2021 22:43:56 GMT -5
I was reading Titan Sinking, a book about how bad the WWF was in 1995. In the chapter about WrestleMania XI they mention that one of the original matches/feuds for the event was going to be Undertaker vs Razor. They didn't go to much in the details about the feud other than saying Taker would throw Razor in an open grave to help set it up. This is pretty interesting, it's been 26 years since the event and this is the first time I am hearing that Razor was supposed to turn heel in 1995 and feud with the Undertaker.
Here is an excerpt about it in the book on page 75-76:
Calaway's initial program at the show was not originally set to be with Bundy at all, as early plans called for an encounter with Scott Hall's Razor Ramon character. McMahon first pitched the idea to Hall in November the night after "Survivor Series", laying out all the proposed matches on the "WrestleMania" card before giving Scott the big reveal, "I got it! Razor Ramon will go one-on-one with... The Undertaker... at WrestleMania! ...Hall was pleased; he knew that working with Calaway would mean a heel turn and a rejuvenation of his stale babyface character. ...Hall had taken the gimmick as high up the card as he could, but with Nash as the babyface champion and he as the heel, there was a potential for a top level feud against his Kliq buddy, and the chance to make genuine main event money for the first time in his career.
Things got further than the planning stage, with a series of never-aired vignettes filmed during Calaway and Hall's days off that would be used to generate interest in the program for television, one of which saw Razor thrown into an open grave by The Undertaker after arrogantly predicting the "Royal Rumble", but out of the blue Vince changed his mind - as he had a tendency to do - and dropped the whole thing. "I remember blowing a gasket at Vince, he pissed us both off mightily," recalled Hall, "That could have been a match for the ages; two big, strong, agile guys who could work and bump with the
best of them. We even had the match planned out, we were ready.
This is interesting to think about. I think Razor and Undertaker could have had an amazing match and feud. Also, the WWF in 1995 was very much in need of more top heels, especially after WM11 when they turned Shawn Michaels and Bam Bam Bigelow babyfaces. Between WM11 and SSL95 the top faces were Diesel, HBK, Bret, Taker, Razor, Luger, Davey Boy, Bigelow and 123 Kid; while the top heels were just Sid, Jarrett, Owen and Yokozuna. Having a heel Razor would have helped a little bit and we could have gotten a number of feuds that could have been exciting; Razor vs Taker, Razor vs Diesel (this time with Razor as the heel), Razor vs HBK (again this time with Razor as the heel), Razor vs Luger, among others.
Had anyone heard about this before? What are your thoughts on this happening?
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Post by CM Tusk on Nov 22, 2021 2:51:44 GMT -5
First I’m hearing about it but the obvious route they should have gone with. Have heel Hall go on to win King Of The Ring leading to a match with Diesel at Summerslam. Would have been fire.
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Post by hbkjason on Nov 22, 2021 4:56:51 GMT -5
That sounds very interesting and something I would have loved to have seen. Razor was a huge favorite of mine during this time and he was one of the most over guys on the roster so it would have been interesting to see how they would have turned him full heel and had the fans start to boo him.
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Post by The Brain on Nov 22, 2021 5:48:04 GMT -5
I enjoyed his run as a heel during the beginning so wouldve been all for this.Wouldve been better than Taker/Bundy that's for sure.
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Post by MKSavage on Nov 22, 2021 10:37:23 GMT -5
First I’m hearing about it but the obvious route they should have gone with. Have heel Hall go on to win King Of The Ring leading to a match with Diesel at Summerslam. Would have been fire. Agreed. That was my thinking as well. WWF really could have gone without the King Mabel run, though his (Mabel's) feud with Taker was at least decent. To me I would have kept Bam Bam Bigelow as a heel, have the Kliq make fun of him which enrages him even more, have Bam Bam go over at the king of the ring to earn the spot vs Diesel at Summer Slam. This way you can still get Razor vs Shawn in the ladder match at SSL. Razor could start a feud with Diesel after SSL. Though, that was when they were pushing Davey Boy. But, had they kept Bam Bam as a heel, turned Hall as well, and still added Davey Boy as a heel, at least then the heel roster was now much better than it was originally. And the roster at the top of the card would have been more balanced (Faces: Diesel, HBK, Bret, Taker, Luger, and 123 Kid) and (Heels: Razor, Sid, Bulldog, Bam Bam, Jarrett, Owen and Yoko). That may have made 1995 WWF a little more enjoyable to watch. Also, another interesting fact from the book, it was Bill Watts who suggested turning Davey Boy heel. When he was hired on with the company the first thing he told Vince was that the company needed more top-notch heels for his over saturated baby-face roster. That sounds very interesting and something I would have loved to have seen. Razor was a huge favorite of mine during this time and he was one of the most over guys on the roster so it would have been interesting to see how they would have turned him full heel and had the fans start to boo him. Yep, Razor was a top favorite of mine as well. It definitely would have been interesting to see how they turned him. I think the boos would have been easy if they matched him up with the Undertaker first. I enjoyed his run as a heel during the beginning so would've been all for this. Would've been better than Taker/Bundy that's for sure. Definitely, that match was horrible. I also enjoyed his work during his initial run, I think heel Razor would have been great. The other interesting side of it would have been later in the year, when they turned Diesel after the Bret Hart bout at the Survivor Series, we would have gotten basically the outsiders before WCW. I could see a number of matches of Hart/Michaels or Michaels/Taker vs Razor/Diesel. |
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nibs92
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Post by nibs92 on Nov 22, 2021 10:56:48 GMT -5
Razor would have been a good fit. Tall, charismatic with that non steroid look. Hindsight is great and all, but he proved to be top level in his WCW run from 96 onward.
It’s weird to think that he was never a bonafide main event stalwart in that period. Correct me if I’m wrong but other than the 1993 rumble, did he even main event a card?
And for sure, Razor v Taker would have been so much better than Bundy v Taker.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 13:38:30 GMT -5
this match/fued could have kept hall happy and the whole wcw take over would have never happened.
if you think about it, if vince wouldnt have changed his mind on this, he may never have had to battle wcw like he did.
ONE little decision could have changed all that right here.
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Thunder Chunky
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Post by Thunder Chunky on Nov 22, 2021 16:33:08 GMT -5
this match/fued could have kept hall happy and the whole wcw take over would have never happened. if you think about it, if vince wouldnt have changed his mind on this, he may never have had to battle wcw like he did. ONE little decision could have changed all that right here. Hall only left because WCW was offering more money for less work. If Vince would have matched, he would have stayed. Hall has never given a crap about how he was booked, he was never a mark for himself like some guys. He was only in it for the money (which is smart, him and Nash are two of the smartest guys in the business). |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Nov 23, 2021 10:48:07 GMT -5
So what, would Razor have dropped the IC Belt to Jarrett at the Rumble and then turn heel right after attacking the Undertaker??
Who does Jeff Jarrett defend the IC Title against then at Wrestlemania XI??
I don't know about any of that one. Baby face Ramon in 1995 still worked. I could see the heel turn happening more so in 1996 than I could have in 1995.
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jking1979
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Post by jking1979 on Nov 27, 2021 22:33:01 GMT -5
I can't understand why Razor Ramon has never been WWE champion. Shawn Michaels was on drugs and still won the WWE title.
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jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Nov 27, 2021 23:03:19 GMT -5
I can't understand why Razor Ramon has never been WWE champion. Shawn Michaels was on drugs and still won the WWE title. Vince saw Shawn as the guy he could build the company around but Shawn didn't have near the people skills and ability to connect with the fans on a personal level like Hogan or Macho did at personal appearances. While they both had their personal demons, they could put them aside from promotional appearances. On one hand you have Shawn who walked with guards who would keep kids away from him at the hotel for Wrestlemania XII and then you have Scott Hall giving a child his intercontinental title and that shows how kind he could be to the fans and he could connect with them on a personal level. So he could have been the company champion and do the personal appearances but I don't think his look is what Vince was desiring at the time. |
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Nov 28, 2021 15:43:13 GMT -5
Razor would have been a good fit. Tall, charismatic with that non steroid look. Hindsight is great and all, but he proved to be top level in his WCW run from 96 onward. It’s weird to think that he was never a bonafide main event stalwart in that period. Correct me if I’m wrong but other than the 1993 rumble, did he even main event a card? And for sure, Razor v Taker would have been so much better than Bundy v Taker. Pretty sure that was Razor's only WWF World Championship match and it actually wasn't even the main event as that honor went to the Royal Rumble match in 1993. Speaking of the Royal Rumble, it is crazy that Razor never once competed in a Rumble match. He was involved in a title match four years in a row though. I kind of like the idea of a heel Razor facing off against The Undertaker. Those two never crossed paths from 1992-1996 which is crazy, but both were babyfaces for most of that stretch so it makes sense. Razor was still super over as a face going into 1995 although I think by the end of that year he had gotten all he could have out of that run. The guy pretty much dominated the Intercontinental title scene for over two years at that point. He was unlikely to break the World title ranks as a face so that would have been a great time to switch his character up. |
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TheEvilDoink1987
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Nov 28, 2021 15:54:43 GMT -5
Apologies for the double post, but now looking back at how thin the heel roster was in 1995, it probably would have helped significantly to have an established name like Razor on that side challenging the likes of Diesel and Shawn.
Maybe you have Razor win the King of the Ring that year. Have it be him versus Shawn in the final round and Razor cheats to win. He lays a huge beat down on Shawn after the match. Shawn was so over at the time and something like this wouldn't have hurt his momentum it would've only gotten him more sympathy in the process. This would lead to a Razor versus Diesel feud culminating in a World title match at SummerSlam. You can argue that these two just spent most of 1994 feuding, but the reversal of roles here would have offered a fresh take on their rivalry.
At the very least, it would have spared us the King Mabel era.
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jason1980s
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Post by jason1980s on Nov 28, 2021 17:55:09 GMT -5
I kind of like the idea of a heel Razor facing off against The Undertaker. Those two never crossed paths from 1992-1996 which is crazy, but both were babyfaces for most of that stretch so it makes sense. Razor was still super over as a face going into 1995 although I think by the end of that year he had gotten all he could have out of that run. The guy pretty much dominated the Intercontinental title scene for over two years at that point. He was unlikely to break the World title ranks as a face so that would have been a great time to switch his character up. I feel like they did have one match in 1993 which was on an Undertaker Coliseum Video. But a feud between the two would have been really interesting, even though Razor had a lot of face time still left. |
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Post by The Brain on Nov 28, 2021 17:57:52 GMT -5
I kind of like the idea of a heel Razor facing off against The Undertaker. Those two never crossed paths from 1992-1996 which is crazy, but both were babyfaces for most of that stretch so it makes sense. Razor was still super over as a face going into 1995 although I think by the end of that year he had gotten all he could have out of that run. The guy pretty much dominated the Intercontinental title scene for over two years at that point. He was unlikely to break the World title ranks as a face so that would have been a great time to switch his character up. I feel like they did have one match in 1993 which was on an Undertaker Coliseum Video. But a feud between the two would have been really interesting, even though Razor had a lot of face time still left. Not sure if its the same match as on the Taker tape, but I know they had a match on Rampage 92. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Nov 28, 2021 19:58:26 GMT -5
I think Razor as a babyface still worked in 1995. The problem was Diesel turned face following Survivor Series, while Shawn turned face right after WM11. Throw in guys like Bret, Taker, and Luger, who were also baby faces, and Razor simply got lost in the shuffle.
The WWF was far too babyface-heavy in 1995, to the point that both Bret and Taker were both toying around in the midcard in directionless feuds. If Vince wasn’t prioritizing those two, sadly there was no way Razor was getting much focus either.
Diesel should have remained a heel, or a tweener at the least. That’s what got him over in the first place. Diesel never turns face, beats Bret at the Royal Rumble, beats a tweener Shawn at WM11 (thus kicking off his face turn), and then works with Razor at Summerslam. Bret eventually topples Diesel at Survivor Series 1995, and we go on with what we got.
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Post by Nivro™ on Nov 29, 2021 0:13:00 GMT -5
I dont know about the whole match with Taker but I was surprised Razor never worked a match with HBK after he won the title at Mania. I know it was a short window but it seemed like they always liked putting him in matches with former friends.
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Post by jason88cubs on Nov 30, 2021 17:32:18 GMT -5
I was reading Titan Sinking, a book about how bad the WWF was in 1995. In the chapter about WrestleMania XI they mention that one of the original matches/feuds for the event was going to be Undertaker vs Razor. They didn't go to much in the details about the feud other than saying Taker would throw Razor in an open grave to help set it up. This is pretty interesting, it's been 26 years since the event and this is the first time I am hearing that Razor was supposed to turn heel in 1995 and feud with the Undertaker. Here is an excerpt about it in the book on page 75-76: Calaway's initial program at the show was not originally set to be with Bundy at all, as early plans called for an encounter with Scott Hall's Razor Ramon character. McMahon first pitched the idea to Hall in November the night after "Survivor Series", laying out all the proposed matches on the "WrestleMania" card before giving Scott the big reveal, "I got it! Razor Ramon will go one-on-one with... The Undertaker... at WrestleMania! ...Hall was pleased; he knew that working with Calaway would mean a heel turn and a rejuvenation of his stale babyface character. ...Hall had taken the gimmick as high up the card as he could, but with Nash as the babyface champion and he as the heel, there was a potential for a top level feud against his Kliq buddy, and the chance to make genuine main event money for the first time in his career. Things got further than the planning stage, with a series of never-aired vignettes filmed during Calaway and Hall's days off that would be used to generate interest in the program for television, one of which saw Razor thrown into an open grave by The Undertaker after arrogantly predicting the "Royal Rumble", but out of the blue Vince changed his mind - as he had a tendency to do - and dropped the whole thing. "I remember blowing a gasket at Vince, he pissed us both off mightily," recalled Hall, "That could have been a match for the ages; two big, strong, agile guys who could work and bump with the
best of them. We even had the match planned out, we were ready. This is interesting to think about. I think Razor and Undertaker could have had an amazing match and feud. Also, the WWF in 1995 was very much in need of more top heels, especially after WM11 when they turned Shawn Michaels and Bam Bam Bigelow babyfaces. Between WM11 and SSL95 the top faces were Diesel, HBK, Bret, Taker, Razor, Luger, Davey Boy, Bigelow and 123 Kid; while the top heels were just Sid, Jarrett, Owen and Yokozuna. Having a heel Razor would have helped a little bit and we could have gotten a number of feuds that could have been exciting; Razor vs Taker, Razor vs Diesel (this time with Razor as the heel), Razor vs HBK (again this time with Razor as the heel), Razor vs Luger, among others. Had anyone heard about this before? What are your thoughts on this happening? How is that book? Worth buying? |
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Post by MKSavage on Nov 30, 2021 20:37:58 GMT -5
I was reading Titan Sinking, a book about how bad the WWF was in 1995. In the chapter about WrestleMania XI they mention that one of the original matches/feuds for the event was going to be Undertaker vs Razor. They didn't go to much in the details about the feud other than saying Taker would throw Razor in an open grave to help set it up. This is pretty interesting, it's been 26 years since the event and this is the first time I am hearing that Razor was supposed to turn heel in 1995 and feud with the Undertaker. Here is an excerpt about it in the book on page 75-76: Calaway's initial program at the show was not originally set to be with Bundy at all, as early plans called for an encounter with Scott Hall's Razor Ramon character. McMahon first pitched the idea to Hall in November the night after "Survivor Series", laying out all the proposed matches on the "WrestleMania" card before giving Scott the big reveal, "I got it! Razor Ramon will go one-on-one with... The Undertaker... at WrestleMania! ...Hall was pleased; he knew that working with Calaway would mean a heel turn and a rejuvenation of his stale babyface character. ...Hall had taken the gimmick as high up the card as he could, but with Nash as the babyface champion and he as the heel, there was a potential for a top level feud against his Kliq buddy, and the chance to make genuine main event money for the first time in his career. Things got further than the planning stage, with a series of never-aired vignettes filmed during Calaway and Hall's days off that would be used to generate interest in the program for television, one of which saw Razor thrown into an open grave by The Undertaker after arrogantly predicting the "Royal Rumble", but out of the blue Vince changed his mind - as he had a tendency to do - and dropped the whole thing. "I remember blowing a gasket at Vince, he pissed us both off mightily," recalled Hall, "That could have been a match for the ages; two big, strong, agile guys who could work and bump with the
best of them. We even had the match planned out, we were ready. This is interesting to think about. I think Razor and Undertaker could have had an amazing match and feud. Also, the WWF in 1995 was very much in need of more top heels, especially after WM11 when they turned Shawn Michaels and Bam Bam Bigelow babyfaces. Between WM11 and SSL95 the top faces were Diesel, HBK, Bret, Taker, Razor, Luger, Davey Boy, Bigelow and 123 Kid; while the top heels were just Sid, Jarrett, Owen and Yokozuna. Having a heel Razor would have helped a little bit and we could have gotten a number of feuds that could have been exciting; Razor vs Taker, Razor vs Diesel (this time with Razor as the heel), Razor vs HBK (again this time with Razor as the heel), Razor vs Luger, among others. Had anyone heard about this before? What are your thoughts on this happening? How is that book? Worth buying? I liked it. But, this was a time that I watched Wrestling so I was it interested me. It did give some interesting information about the backstage politics, that was good. |
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Post by jason88cubs on Dec 27, 2021 17:45:42 GMT -5
How is that book? Worth buying? I liked it. But, this was a time that I watched Wrestling so I was it interested me. It did give some interesting information about the backstage politics, that was good. I bought the book and read it. I enjoyed it
I'm gonna buy the 2 follow up books
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