alexxx
Superstar
Joined on: Dec 27, 2008 15:54:38 GMT -5
Posts: 790
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Diesel
Apr 13, 2022 13:52:00 GMT -5
via mobile
JokerFC likes this
Post by alexxx on Apr 13, 2022 13:52:00 GMT -5
The WWF booking of their babyface world champions during the mid-90's was always a little strange. They didn't exactly book Bret Hart very strong during his second reign either. And they continued this style of booking with Diesel afterwards.
Look at the WWF PPV championship events from WMX - WMXI:
WrestleMania X: Bret Hart beats Yokozuna
King of the Ring: Diesel beat Bret Hart by DQ
Summer Slam: Bret Hart beats Owen Hart in a cage match
Survivor Series: Bob Backlund beats Bret Hart in a submission match
Royal Rumble: Diesel and Bret Hart fight to a draw
For both Bret and Diesel, their first title defense ends in a non-finish. Neither one could really get some momentum going.
For Diesel... I personally always liked Kevin Nash. He has a great mind for the business, despite being limited in the ring. I think what made his reign feel weak is a combination of three things: 1) as already mentioned, he had no momentum after winning the title 2) there were next to zero believable heel challengers at the time and 3) they turned him into the typical baby face, which went against everything that made him popular in the first place. He needed to be less of a cartoon face and more of the Wolfpac Kevin Nash that got him over in WCW. I think if Diesel kept going as the cool tweener, they could have booked him in more matches with 'Taker, Razor, Bret, Sid and Shawn.. and those would have felt like legitimate big PPV matches.
Instead, in typical mid-90s WWF fashion, they kept the faces away from each other for as long as possible, and instead put all of them up against weak heel opponents like Mabel, Lawler, Isaac Yankem and the like.
Another thing which could be mentioned here was the 1995 debut of the In Your House PPV's. Also known as the half-assed PPV's. These were just RAW events you needed to pay for. Titles never or rarely switched hands during this time as well, so Diesel was defending his title at events that already nobody cared about
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Post by hitmancmedge on Apr 13, 2022 17:17:10 GMT -5
I always thought they made a mistake turning Bam Bam after mania 11. All that press and it just ended up being for Bam Bam to be the number 6 babyface on the brand. In 1995 they had their baby faces. Bret, Shawn, and Taker were the top three with honestly Diesel and Razor being the other two of the five. But they didn’t have any heels. You could have had Bam Bam destroy Shawn the night after mania and get his heat back and feud with Diesel all summer.
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Post by JokerFC on Apr 13, 2022 17:34:32 GMT -5
Diesel had a VEERY weak crop of title contenders...
HBK @ WM11? Shawn wasn't there yet...
Sid @ IYH? Sid was better granted but their matches were awful because they had a predictable style clash.
Mabel @ Summerslam? Pffft....dreadful. A monster for Diesel to slay and in no way presented as someone that was gonna win the big one.
Vince's use of his roster in 1995 was baffling. Both the RR and Summerslam could have been way better. Turning Bam Bam face instead of having the Taylor loss turn him into a monster was baffling. I have laid it out here many times how Bam Bam could have been built into a credible heel opponent for Diesel....feed him folks in convincing fashion from April until August including him winning KOTR. It would have worked...Also Bam Bam was a brilliant worker...he could have a had a brilliant program with Nash.
Face roster in 1995:
Diesel
HBK
Bret
Razor
Undertaker
Lex Luger
Bulldog
Bam Bam
That leaves Sid, JJ, Owen & precious few others for Nash.
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Post by The Brain on Apr 13, 2022 17:46:15 GMT -5
Bam Bam shouldve 100% won that years KOTR as a monster heel. We wouldnt see Philly throw trash like they did for Mabel thats for sure
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Diesel
Apr 13, 2022 18:00:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by hitmancmedge on Apr 13, 2022 18:00:30 GMT -5
1995 did suck as a year but it was a very very important year where Vince def started to figure some things out. He figured out that Bret and Shawn were his guys of that crop. He figured out that people were invested in Taker and he could be more than an attraction. He figures Diesel out by the 4th quarter of the year.
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Post by JokerFC on Apr 13, 2022 19:13:53 GMT -5
Bam Bam shouldve 100% won that years KOTR as a monster heel. We wouldnt see Philly throw trash like they did for Mabel thats for sure You had enough expendable talent for Bam Bam to murder someone weekly on Raw and stroll to the KOTR where the winner got a shot @ Summerslam...and thats with him avoiding Bret, UT & HBK too BTW. the opportunity was there...but as I said above the way Vince used his roster in 1995 was just f*cking mind boggling. He had the tools but damn if that creative well wasnt as DRY as Ghandis sandal lads....Brutality. Ill have a think on how to book Bam Bam in 1995. |
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Post by jason88cubs on Apr 13, 2022 19:38:35 GMT -5
Should have kept diesel as the cool heel
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Post by MKSavage on Apr 13, 2022 20:19:50 GMT -5
I've always felt that the biggest problem with the WWF in 1995, other than the goofy gimmicks, was the lack of credible heels for a good portion of the year. I like the idea of keeping Bam Bam as a heel. Like hitmancmedge said, they could have had him come out the next night on RAW, have people making fun of him till he goes mental and destroys jobbers and lower card guys, then eventually someone like HBK. This gets him in a feud with HBK and Diesel. Have Bigelow win the KOTR, last beating HBK in the finals (with help, or by cheating). This sets up Bam Bam as the challenger at Summer Slam 1995 vs Diesel. Diesel could get the win clean, or Bam Bam could win by count-out (or other means) and stretch it to an IYH PPV. After he is done with the Diesel feud, HBK can have a match with him to get revenge on their earlier stuff (attacks and loss at KOTR). This would also be a big win for HBK on the way to the WWF Title in 1996. This wouldn't correct everything wrong with the WWF in 1995, but it would have been better than Mabel. |
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Post by MKSavage on Apr 13, 2022 20:22:33 GMT -5
Should have kept diesel as the cool heel That might have been better. He would have worked with Bret Hart, Undertaker, Razor Ramon, HBK, face Bulldog, Lex Luger. And if they did go ahead and turn Bam Bam face after WM11, he could have faced heel Diesel. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Apr 13, 2022 21:47:02 GMT -5
I guess I should step in on this one and add my 2 cents being well... the topic at hand is of Diesel.
So I always felt too that his competition got worse as the year went on too.
Diesel vs. Bret Hart at Royal Rumble was great! I think that match is better than their Survivor Series match to be honest. But maybe it's just me being bias since Diesel didn't lose the title at that one.
Then he had Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett to work with.
Then finally Shawn Michaels. That is a really solid four to work with in the first four months of your title reign.
Bam Bam Bigelow was a worthy heel competitor. Problem is as people said, Vince turned Bammer face and had him become a faux Kliq member with Diesel and HBK on TV. It just looked so unnatural. Like HBK and Diesel just didn't want Bigelow there with them.
Sid was horrible then, he didn't become the man until a year later when he was a good guy and the fans were behind him.
Mabel.... ugh.
Yokozuna on house shows and TV tapings was next, then British Bulldog.
Bulldog had no chemistry with Diesel in the ring either. Those matches were horrible any time those two locked up.
Then finally Bret again.
I feel Diesel gets a bad deal with how fans look at his title reign. I think Diesel did a lot with what he had given to him during that time, and honestly, it probably could have went a lot worse. Because it had to do something good, or WCW wouldn't have came after him months later to jump ship for a fat stack of cash.
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Post by JokerFC on Apr 13, 2022 22:22:10 GMT -5
I guess I should step in on this one and add my 2 cents being well... the topic at hand is of Diesel. So I always felt too that his competition got worse as the year went on too. Diesel vs. Bret Hart at Royal Rumble was great! I think that match is better than their Survivor Series match to be honest. But maybe it's just me being bias since Diesel didn't lose the title at that one. Then he had Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett to work with. Then finally Shawn Michaels. That is a really solid four to work with in the first four months of your title reign. Bam Bam Bigelow was a worthy heel competitor. Problem is as people said, Vince turned Bammer face and had him become a faux Kliq member with Diesel and HBK on TV. It just looked so unnatural. Like HBK and Diesel just didn't want Bigelow there with them. Sid was horrible then, he didn't become the man until a year later when he was a good guy and the fans were behind him. Mabel.... ugh. Yokozuna on house shows and TV tapings was next, then British Bulldog. Bulldog had no chemistry with Diesel in the ring either. Those matches were horrible any time those two locked up. Then finally Bret again. I feel Diesel gets a bad deal with how fans look at his title reign. I think Diesel did a lot with what he had given to him during that time, and honestly, it probably could have went a lot worse. Because it had to do something good, or WCW wouldn't have came after him months later to jump ship for a fat stack of cash. I have always said that Diesel suffered most from whatever kind of effin creative famine that Vince was enduring. The midcard was a lot better than the ME scene...the IC arena was great for instance. |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Apr 13, 2022 22:42:42 GMT -5
I guess I should step in on this one and add my 2 cents being well... the topic at hand is of Diesel. So I always felt too that his competition got worse as the year went on too. Diesel vs. Bret Hart at Royal Rumble was great! I think that match is better than their Survivor Series match to be honest. But maybe it's just me being bias since Diesel didn't lose the title at that one. Then he had Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett to work with. Then finally Shawn Michaels. That is a really solid four to work with in the first four months of your title reign. Bam Bam Bigelow was a worthy heel competitor. Problem is as people said, Vince turned Bammer face and had him become a faux Kliq member with Diesel and HBK on TV. It just looked so unnatural. Like HBK and Diesel just didn't want Bigelow there with them. Sid was horrible then, he didn't become the man until a year later when he was a good guy and the fans were behind him. Mabel.... ugh. Yokozuna on house shows and TV tapings was next, then British Bulldog. Bulldog had no chemistry with Diesel in the ring either. Those matches were horrible any time those two locked up. Then finally Bret again. I feel Diesel gets a bad deal with how fans look at his title reign. I think Diesel did a lot with what he had given to him during that time, and honestly, it probably could have went a lot worse. Because it had to do something good, or WCW wouldn't have came after him months later to jump ship for a fat stack of cash. I have always said that Diesel suffered most from whatever kind of effin creative famine that Vince was enduring. The midcard was a lot better than the ME scene...the IC arena was great for instance.
I also felt that the In Your House PPVs had better matches that year than the big 5 PPVs for entire card of matches.
SummerSlam gave us such greats as Smoking Gunns vs. Eli and Jacob Blu, where as In Your House would give us British Bulldog & Lex Luger vs. Yokozuna & Owen Hart.
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Post by JokerFC on Apr 13, 2022 23:47:27 GMT -5
I have always said that Diesel suffered most from whatever kind of effin creative famine that Vince was enduring. The midcard was a lot better than the ME scene...the IC arena was great for instance.
I also felt that the In Your House PPVs had better matches that year than the big 5 PPVs for entire card of matches.
SummerSlam gave us such greats as Smoking Gunns vs. Eli and Jacob Blu, where as In Your House would give us British Bulldog & Lex Luger vs. Yokozuna & Owen Hart.
Bret vs Hakushi HBK vs Jarrett 2 Dudes vs Owen/Yoko Bret vs Bulldog II Jesus you could go on all day in fairness.... |
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Post by cordless2016 on Apr 14, 2022 7:32:50 GMT -5
I was a huge Diesel fan as a kid.
What got Diesel over was being a silent badass (similar to Roman Reigns during the shield days). Then he wins the title, and Vince turns his character into the typical smiling, happy-go-lucky champion. This was not the character that got him over in the first place. And considering Bret was still the majority of fans favorite at that time, this put Diesel at a huge disadvantage to start his run.
As others mentioned, the lack of heel challengers didn’t help either. Sid and Nash never really had chemistry (despite the potential for a decent hoss fight), Mabel was a joke, and Bulldog was never presented as a legit threat to Nash (and had even worse chemistry with him than Sid).
What really gets me is that after forcing this “new” version of Diesel down fans throats for a year, the very next night after loosing the belt Diesel comes out and gives a worked-shoot promo. He basically went back to what got him over in the first place. Had they let Nash be this tweener character for a year, he’d likely have had better fan reception and a far greater talent pool to work with.
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Post by JokerFC on Apr 14, 2022 18:59:23 GMT -5
. What really gets me is that after forcing this “new” version of Diesel down fans throats for a year, the very next night after loosing the belt Diesel comes out and gives a worked-shoot promo. He basically went back to what got him over in the first place. Had they let Nash be this tweener character for a year, he’d likely have had better fan reception and a far greater talent pool to work with. Yeah...yet another mystifying move by Vinnie Mac in 1995....I was just watching this recently on the Network. |
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TheEvilDoink1987
Main Eventer
Joined on: Feb 22, 2010 21:37:52 GMT -5
Posts: 2,812
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Post by TheEvilDoink1987 on Apr 17, 2022 6:12:19 GMT -5
. What really gets me is that after forcing this “new” version of Diesel down fans throats for a year, the very next night after loosing the belt Diesel comes out and gives a worked-shoot promo. He basically went back to what got him over in the first place. Had they let Nash be this tweener character for a year, he’d likely have had better fan reception and a far greater talent pool to work with. Yeah...yet another mystifying move by Vinnie Mac in 1995....I was just watching this recently on the Network. This is a classic example of when Vince is just wrong. He was still looking to recreate Hulk Hogan even though fans were tired of that act no matter who you got to play the role. Instead of the cooler version of Diesel that got over on its own, Vince wanted him smiling more while pandering to the fans and kissing babies. It also didn't help any when Shawn turned right after WrestleMania XI and immediately became the top babyface in the company. 1995 was going to be a rocky year for the WWF regardless, but a more serious Diesel would have made his reign and that particular stretch much better. |
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