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Post by CM Tusk on Jan 3, 2023 20:13:50 GMT -5
Watching 98 right now and honestly, LOD seems so out of place. I’m realizing I am just not a fan of their Federation run. They feel like old men trying to keep up with edgier characters and they were booked like bozos 75% of the run. It feels awkward watching and they haven’t even gotten to drunk Hawk and Puke stuff yet.
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Post by The Brain on Jan 4, 2023 8:16:20 GMT -5
Bruno on commentary with Vince/Jesse on Superstars in the late 80s. We all know Bruno's legacy in the ring but commentary wasnt his thing.
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Old Zeke
Main Eventer
'Fraid old Zeke, he rides up here with me. Can't trust a pig with watermelons, you know.
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Post by Old Zeke on Jan 4, 2023 9:50:21 GMT -5
Bruno on commentary with Vince/Jesse on Superstars in the late 80s. We all know Bruno's legacy in the ring but commentary wasnt his thing. I agree with you that he didn't fit in at the time. But I actually don't mind Bruno's commentary - he's not monotonous, nor is he over the top. He has a good balance with it, and when he does show an emotion such as anger, it means something because he's not doing it every show. Just my opinion, I expect I'm in the minority with that one.
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Post by Kill Em' All on Jan 4, 2023 10:46:54 GMT -5
Alberto Delrio 2015-2016 One of the main heels in the PG Era. I think even by 2014 with the onset of Reality Era he no longer fit in in my eyes. He never was going to come close to a World Title. To me he just felt like character that belonged in the PG Era years.
Batista being this heroic baby face to take down Randy Orton at WM XXX. The match and babyface Batista felt like 2009.
Steve Austin post Invasion Angle. With all these new stars and the change coming to the company I think Austin’s place was definitely lost, and it was time to move on.
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Post by Back to the Codyverse on Jan 4, 2023 21:01:52 GMT -5
Simon Dean would’ve been a fantastic heel in the 90’s
CM Punk Attitude Era/Early RA era would’ve have better suited him. Not saying Punk didn’t fit in during his run(s)
Heidenreich was a tailor made 1990-1992 opponent for Hogan
Jake The Snake felt very out of place in 1996
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Post by JokerFC on Jan 6, 2023 5:59:07 GMT -5
Alberto Delrio 2015-2016 One of the main heels in the PG Era. I think even by 2014 with the onset of Reality Era he no longer fit in in my eyes. He never was going to come close to a World Title. To me he just felt like character that belonged in the PG Era years. Batista being this heroic baby face to take down Randy Orton at WM XXX. The match and babyface Batista felt like 2009. Steve Austin post Invasion Angle. With all these new stars and the change coming to the company I think Austin’s place was definitely lost, and it was time to move on. Austin was the most over guy on the roster in 2002(aside from Hogans brief buzz which was mega) until his departure. Folks were gasping for him to to win RR02 and when he was eliminated the air got sucked out of the room completely. Crowd was still hot as hell for him after the crap nWo stuff too...they were really into his feud with Flair & UT.
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Post by K5 on Jan 7, 2023 2:40:02 GMT -5
Steiner in every feud other than against triple h during his wwe run.
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Post by hbkjason on Jan 7, 2023 11:54:23 GMT -5
Alberto Delrio 2015-2016 One of the main heels in the PG Era. I think even by 2014 with the onset of Reality Era he no longer fit in in my eyes. He never was going to come close to a World Title. To me he just felt like character that belonged in the PG Era years. Batista being this heroic baby face to take down Randy Orton at WM XXX. The match and babyface Batista felt like 2009. Steve Austin post Invasion Angle. With all these new stars and the change coming to the company I think Austin’s place was definitely lost, and it was time to move on. Austin was the most over guy on the roster in 2002(aside from Hogans brief buzz which was mega) until his departure. Folks were gasping for him to to win RR02 and when he was eliminated the air got sucked out of the room completely. Crowd was still hot as hell for him after the crap nWo stuff too...they were really into his feud with Flair & UT. I fully agree about Austin at the 2002 rumble. No doubt folks were excited about The Game being back, but people clearly wanted Austin to win the Rumble. A fun "What If" for us to do would be, What If Vince called an audible during the match and decided Austin was to win
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 13:59:20 GMT -5
Austin was the most over guy on the roster in 2002(aside from Hogans brief buzz which was mega) until his departure. Folks were gasping for him to to win RR02 and when he was eliminated the air got sucked out of the room completely. Crowd was still hot as hell for him after the crap nWo stuff too...they were really into his feud with Flair & UT. I fully agree about Austin at the 2002 rumble. No doubt folks were excited about The Game being back, but people clearly wanted Austin to win the Rumble. A fun "What If" for us to do would be, What If Vince called an audible during the match and decided Austin was to win i wanted mr perfect win it coulda been a great comeback and push to have another top guy in the mix him/austin/hhh as the last 3 and he dumps the 2 of them over at the end woulda been PERFECT!
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Retrospect
Main Eventer
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Post by Retrospect on Jan 8, 2023 19:01:11 GMT -5
Bob Backlund in the 90s. It still blows my mind that he had the title.
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Post by JokerFC on Jan 8, 2023 19:09:22 GMT -5
Watching 98 right now and honestly, LOD seems so out of place. I’m realizing I am just not a fan of their Federation run. They feel like old men trying to keep up with edgier characters and they were booked like bozos 75% of the run. It feels awkward watching and they haven’t even gotten to drunk Hawk and Puke stuff yet. yeah they did....as a huge LOD fan a a lot of that stuff was tough to watch. I knew when the freshly repainted LOD 2000 didnt beat NAO at Unforgiven that they were absolutely done.
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Post by wolfpac on Jan 9, 2023 8:22:22 GMT -5
Lots of good picks id say over my choices but for some different ones
Raven wwf 2000
Sandman raw 2007 - like his feud with carlito was so out of place and random
Super crazy singles run 2007 (I liked the mexicools and he always suited smack down imo)
Maskless rey in wcw 2000
Godfather and Val venis 2002
Mark Henry post sexual chocolate/ pre hall of pain (I started to enjoy him around 2005/6)
Here’s one people may not agree but king booker seemed so random, even looking back they really ran with it but the king part seemed so out of place for him Yet it’s like that’s the gimmick he needed to be top heel??
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Post by jason88cubs on Jan 9, 2023 15:09:01 GMT -5
Lots of good picks id say over my choices but for some different ones Raven wwf 2000 Sandman raw 2007 - like his feud with carlito was so out of place and random Super crazy singles run 2007 (I liked the mexicools and he always suited smack down imo) Maskless rey in wcw 2000 Godfather and Val venis 2002 Mark Henry post sexual chocolate/ pre hall of pain (I started to enjoy him around 2005/6) Here’s one people may not agree but king booker seemed so random, even looking back they really ran with it but the king part seemed so out of place for him Yet it’s like that’s the gimmick he needed to be top heel?? I love Sandman, of course look at my avi, but that face he was in WWE in 2007 getting actual tv time is crazy to me
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saintegenevieve
Mid-Carder
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Post by saintegenevieve on Jan 15, 2023 4:42:33 GMT -5
Warrior in 1996....100% the first thing I thought of. Tatanka during RA is a great shout too as is,Bundy during NG Warrior's problem is he didn't really want to come back. He came back to do a cross promotion, which is prescient in light of how entertainment gets done today. It's hard to say if he fit in or didn't since he only seemed to want to do a 90 second squash with a once a month 10 minute match. WWF signed him to do a cross promotion but seemed to think that they could convince him along the way to get back on the road. That didn't happen. He quit. WWF buried him. That was that. I'm not sure if he didn't fit in strictly. I don't think that was ever the question one way or the other. He wanted his cake and eat it too
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saintegenevieve
Mid-Carder
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Post by saintegenevieve on Jan 15, 2023 4:49:17 GMT -5
Vader never really seemed to have a spot in North America where he fit in. Like he was too real for the New Gen era but too cartoony for the Attitude Era. That's probably true. Vader only made sense in a Pancrease/Japan setting. WWF did try to milk that but you could only do a random gimmick match for him. Doesn't matter either way. Vader was an old guy in 1996, pushing 40. No company is going to gamble on someone that old in 1996. Too much liability. Question becomes "When is he going to get injured." He was done only two years in. Kind of the same thing as to why Mankind got pushed in a forced way in 1998. They knew he was writing a book, so it's great PR. McMahon also understood his mortality. His style meant that they had to milk him while they still could. He retired at 35 years old roughly. My main issue with Vader in WWF is they never repackaged him. I thought to myself "What is this WCW guy doing here?" Polka dots Dusty worked fine by me since he looked like a WWF act. Ronnie Garvin did not. Same thing:"What's this JCP guy doing here? *snooze*" It would have helped at just least for his jockstrap mask to be removed and to give him an elaborate entrance. My guess is they didn't care since they knew he'd be washed up at some point soon
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saintegenevieve
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Post by saintegenevieve on Jan 15, 2023 4:53:45 GMT -5
I fully agree about Austin at the 2002 rumble. No doubt folks were excited about The Game being back, but people clearly wanted Austin to win the Rumble. A fun "What If" for us to do would be, What If Vince called an audible during the match and decided Austin was to win i wanted mr perfect win it coulda been a great comeback and push to have another top guy in the mix him/austin/hhh as the last 3 and he dumps the 2 of them over at the end woulda been PERFECT! Perfect was gross in 2002. If you haven't, re-watch some of his matches. He could do the whole schtik that people loved but he was visibly unhealthy. He looked bloated, winded up a lot, and was showing his age. I don't think he wrestled for much longer than 5 minutes at any point. Then he died within a year. No way was he going to get pushed. After a month, he was opening matches as Boss Man's tag partner. Nostalgia is cool but it can blind. He was much better in WCW when he wasn't nearly what he used to be. Pretty much what drugs and hard drinking can do to people
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2023 6:08:44 GMT -5
i wanted mr perfect win it coulda been a great comeback and push to have another top guy in the mix him/austin/hhh as the last 3 and he dumps the 2 of them over at the end woulda been PERFECT! Perfect was gross in 2002. If you haven't, re-watch some of his matches. He could do the whole schtik that people loved but he was visibly unhealthy. He looked bloated, winded up a lot, and was showing his age. I don't think he wrestled for much longer than 5 minutes at any point. Then he died within a year. No way was he going to get pushed. After a month, he was opening matches as Boss Man's tag partner. Nostalgia is cool but it can blind. He was much better in WCW when he wasn't nearly what he used to be. Pretty much what drugs and hard drinking can do to people he had just come back, he looked alright to me. he looked great at rumble 2002. being fired might have been why he went overboard with the drug use wrestling on smaller crap shows. look how many more years they got out of flair and hogan. crap hogan vs micheals was main event in 2006 at summerslam. the writers were crap by then and didnt push mr perfect with anything good. alot has to with that. not his fault they were jobbing him out to the "new" talent. was he the perfect from 1990, no, but neither were hogan, taker, flair, micheals etc and they got plenty more from them over the years. other legends too.. hall and nash werent exactly spring chickens by 2002 and they pushed a good angle for them. vince was into pushing new guys over legends in early 2000's until his product started to suck by 2004 and then realized he still needs the flairs,hulks, micheals, takers etc. bering fired and made an example of prob had ALOT to do with his drug use and dying. and he was unfairly teated for the plane ride to hell. brock was also wrestling with him and slamming him up against the door on the plane, but he was young talent and allowed to get by. everyone was f'n around on that plane ride. and plenty of guys were still using drugs and roids then as well. he coulda won the rumble, maybe had a kick ass match with Angle at mania and been a top guy still, but again writers didnt do anything good with him and wanted to make young talent names off him. HHH got the win due to being Steph's husband and thats it. micheals back was f'd, and taker was in horiible shape in 2000's and they squeezed what ever juice out of them they could, WHEN the bookers/writers wanted to. austins neck was fried and he was shell of his former self and they still tried pushing him. he had to quit a year later even.
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saintegenevieve
Mid-Carder
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Post by saintegenevieve on Jan 15, 2023 17:03:23 GMT -5
Perfect was gross in 2002. If you haven't, re-watch some of his matches. He could do the whole schtik that people loved but he was visibly unhealthy. He looked bloated, winded up a lot, and was showing his age. I don't think he wrestled for much longer than 5 minutes at any point. Then he died within a year. No way was he going to get pushed. After a month, he was opening matches as Boss Man's tag partner. Nostalgia is cool but it can blind. He was much better in WCW when he wasn't nearly what he used to be. Pretty much what drugs and hard drinking can do to people he had just come back, he looked alright to me. he looked great at rumble 2002. being fired might have been why he went overboard with the drug use wrestling on smaller crap shows. look how many more years they got out of flair and hogan. crap hogan vs micheals was main event in 2006 at summerslam. the writers were crap by then and didnt push mr perfect with anything good. alot has to with that. not his fault they were jobbing him out to the "new" talent. was he the perfect from 1990, no, but neither were hogan, taker, flair, micheals etc and they got plenty more from them over the years. other legends too.. hall and nash werent exactly spring chickens by 2002 and they pushed a good angle for them. vince was into pushing new guys over legends in early 2000's until his product started to suck by 2004 and then realized he still needs the flairs,hulks, micheals, takers etc. bering fired and made an example of prob had ALOT to do with his drug use and dying. and he was unfairly teated for the plane ride to hell. brock was also wrestling with him and slamming him up against the door on the plane, but he was young talent and allowed to get by. everyone was f'n around on that plane ride. and plenty of guys were still using drugs and roids then as well. he coulda won the rumble, maybe had a kick ass match with Angle at mania and been a top guy still, but again writers didnt do anything good with him and wanted to make young talent names off him. HHH got the win due to being Steph's husband and thats it. micheals back was f'd, and taker was in horiible shape in 2000's and they squeezed what ever juice out of them they could, WHEN the bookers/writers wanted to. austins neck was fried and he was shell of his former self and they still tried pushing him. he had to quit a year later even. Looking good at the Rumble isn't the feat you think it is. Those aren't bump-intensive matches, boil down to a lot of rest spots and punches, and, besides, he had a lot of time off to get back in shape (to the degree that he could). That's very different from touring and having matches 4 days a week, especially if you have a habit, which he did (blow, booze, pain killers). You're free to victimize him if that makes you feel better. Let's not forget that he appeared live on Nitro absolutely wasted. That he wasn't fired for that says a lot. He was also forced into retirement by the time he was 33. Sure, his bumping played a role. Hard living does too. I don't see a lot of wrestlers leaving at that age unless they had a drug problem. Look at Jake Roberts and how he looked by 35. Same with the Dynamite Kid. Foley was high risk in ways that none of them were, and he lasted longer. Difference between Flair and Hogan, and Hennig is they drew money. Hate to break it to you but Hennig was never a real draw. He was the worst drawing opponent Hogan ever had from 1984-1992. That's indisputable. Even if you want to blame that on bad timing, that doesn't explain why Hogan drew better against Earthquake, Slaughter, Flair, and Sid Justice. Yes... even Earthquake You have to think about this from the casual fan POV, which wrestling fans often don't want to do. It's estimated that casuals make up 60% of the audience. What would have casual fans seen in others that they didn't see in Perfect? We can only speculate but I'll give you my view, as I look at wrestling from a casual POV anyway First, Hennig bumped for every loser on the roster in really stupid ways. I want to say that he once wrestled Sam Houston on Prime Time. He was taking ridiculous bumps, landing on his shoulder as he was holding the rope, only from Houston kicking his hamstring. Over and over again. Ask yourself why would fans think Hennig could pass as a threat to Hulk Hogan? Flair had the same habits sometimes. I think it hurt his run in the WWF when he's struggling against Jim Neidhart while the Undertaker is planting Kerry Von Erich's skull into the mat in 3 minutes tops. Optics matter. Because of how wrestling is structured as a system, you get praised for "putting over" a guy like the Red Rooster who might lose a lot. To casuals, it means you're struggling against an opening act. They don't interpret excessive bumps as "Oh, that Rooster [or Sam Houston] is a tough guy. I wouldn't want to fight him in a bar." Second, Perfect had really crappy offensives. Just my view. His most devastating move was the snap mare move when he would flip over his opponent and pull their hair doing it. Problem was that that move was a transitional spot into a rest hold. There were no bone-breaking optics to what he did. People didn't think to themselves that the sharpshooter didn't hurt or that the Rude Awakening didn't hurt you. Honky Tonk Man was a known loser but he drew for that reason. He was a comedy wrestler. Perfect's Perfect Plex didn't look like a move that could knock you out. Worse, wrestlers often kicked out of it. I remember Hogan, Warrior, and maybe Texas Tornado kicking out of it. Perfect did convey toughness but he never really kicked his game up. He was only a few years removed from Paul Orndorff who did convey toughness far better. Perfect did but you need to work matches that correspond to that, instead of engaging in his self-masturbation of bumps that was the wrestling equivalent of over-acting. TBH, I preferred him when he came back in 1992 since his body was so broken down that he had to get rid of his excessive bumping. Problem was that behind the smoke and mirrors of what he used to do, he worked more like Mr. Good than Mr. Perfect. Look at him against Lex Luger or even against Shawn Michaels, who was a much better worker in every respect. Matches were good. That was about it. Bret Hart always had the best matches with Hennig, and he was a much better worker (1989, 1991, 1993). By 1997, when he returned again, past the hype by WWF for years that he was some kind of living legend, I can't think of any standout matches he had in WCW. Can you? He was credible because he was a brand. So was the British Bulldog. I would suggest that you think of 2002 from the lens of investment. You got a guy who's 43 years old, has habits, body broken down, a history of quitting at random points. Then you got - going to think of some names with upsides - Rob Van Dam, Booker T., Kurt Angle, HHH, Jericho, Undertaker (his spot is sealed), Kane (same), Austin, Rock. How would you even be able to push Hennig? Not to mention Lesnar, Cena, Orton coming in that year, so spots have to be kept open for them. You're going to push a 43 year old over guys 10 years younger? A 43 year old who wasn't much of a draw in the first place? Hennig is like Rob Van Dam and even CM Punk, but inferior to both. They're people who have tremendous hardcore fan support, but they're also guys who don't move casual numbers and aren't going to make new fans. RVD could have, but he has the personality of a plant, so you can't really book him in Wrestlemania season for anything but "Who's better?" dream matches that don't draw money. Casuals get into heat. It takes a certain personality to pull that off, not an athletic, one-dimensional stoner. Triple H got pushed in the end because he's impressive. When he comes to the ring, casuals pay attention. He's much aligned by wrestling fans for a lot of reasons (some good, a lot bad), but casuals make up the majority audience. It's those people who get Wrestlemania 1.2 million buys when the Rumble (second most popular) get maybe 600k back in those days. Do the math. It's double what every other event is scoring. Not to mention market bidding wars, hotels, a 4 day event between Raw and weekend events, and so on. Without Wrestlemania, I don't think WWE would be where it is. It's the event that impresses suits. I've known people who find wrestling goofy who will attend Wrestlemania because it's that much of a spectacle. That's why HHH gets pushed. Even tough Marines who saw combat look at him in awe wondering how much he presses. Add some alpha points for having married the boss' daughter. Think about it
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Post by MKSavage on Jan 15, 2023 17:32:09 GMT -5
I think Perfect could have worked in 2002, but not the way they were using him. Had they used him as an attraction instead of an everyday contender, it would have worked best. He could have had a lot of "dream matches" with guys at the time, most notably Angle and HHH. I still think he was able to give out good performance, maybe not like 1990, but still good. The only questions are how bad was his back, and how much of a drug problem did he have at the time. Both could definitely hinder any kind of push.
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Post by MKSavage on Jan 15, 2023 17:37:09 GMT -5
Vader never really seemed to have a spot in North America where he fit in. Like he was too real for the New Gen era but too cartoony for the Attitude Era. That's probably true. Vader only made sense in a Pancrease/Japan setting. WWF did try to milk that but you could only do a random gimmick match for him. Doesn't matter either way. Vader was an old guy in 1996, pushing 40. No company is going to gamble on someone that old in 1996. Too much liability. Question becomes "When is he going to get injured." He was done only two years in. Kind of the same thing as to why Mankind got pushed in a forced way in 1998. They knew he was writing a book, so it's great PR. McMahon also understood his mortality. His style meant that they had to milk him while they still could. He retired at 35 years old roughly. My main issue with Vader in WWF is they never repackaged him. I thought to myself "What is this WCW guy doing here?" Polka dots Dusty worked fine by me since he looked like a WWF act. Ronnie Garvin did not. Same thing:"What's this JCP guy doing here? *snooze*" It would have helped at just least for his jockstrap mask to be removed and to give him an elaborate entrance. My guess is they didn't care since they knew he'd be washed up at some point soon Vince did want to repackage him, he wanted to call him "The Mastodon", but Vader and Cornette and others didn't want that. They felt that Vader was a big name, why change it. In one of Vader's shoot interviews, he talks about this. He feels that once he turned down Vince about the change, that Vince kind-of lost interest in him. Add on to that Shawn complaining about him, pretty much ended his run in the WWF. To Vader's credit, at the end of the interview, he does say that maybe he should have just gone with the change that Vince wanted, been more willing to evolve.
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