saintegenevieve
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Sept 6, 2022 4:19:20 GMT -5
Posts: 192
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Post by saintegenevieve on Jan 15, 2023 18:24:33 GMT -5
That's probably true. Vader only made sense in a Pancrease/Japan setting. WWF did try to milk that but you could only do a random gimmick match for him. Doesn't matter either way. Vader was an old guy in 1996, pushing 40. No company is going to gamble on someone that old in 1996. Too much liability. Question becomes "When is he going to get injured." He was done only two years in. Kind of the same thing as to why Mankind got pushed in a forced way in 1998. They knew he was writing a book, so it's great PR. McMahon also understood his mortality. His style meant that they had to milk him while they still could. He retired at 35 years old roughly. My main issue with Vader in WWF is they never repackaged him. I thought to myself "What is this WCW guy doing here?" Polka dots Dusty worked fine by me since he looked like a WWF act. Ronnie Garvin did not. Same thing:"What's this JCP guy doing here? *snooze*" It would have helped at just least for his jockstrap mask to be removed and to give him an elaborate entrance. My guess is they didn't care since they knew he'd be washed up at some point soon Vince did want to repackage him, he wanted to call him "The Mastodon", but Vader and Cornette and others didn't want that. They felt that Vader was a big name, why change it. In one of Vader's shoot interviews, he talks about this. He feels that once he turned down Vince about the change, that Vince kind-of lost interest in him. Add on to that Shawn complaining about him, pretty much ended his run in the WWF. To Vader's credit, at the end of the interview, he does say that maybe he should have just gone with the change that Vince wanted, been more willing to evolve. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Cornette screwed the pooch on that then. I'm not sold by the "Mastadon" name but something easier off the tongue would have come through in the final production The thing is, Vader wasn't really a name. He was a headline act in a company that struggled to draw a few hundred people, and drew so poorly that they cut house shows entirely, which is unprecedented. WWF, by contrast, was doing a few thousand still on average. Pretty much 10-15x more. It's like what I say about the Invasion storyline. Reality is that none of those WCW guys could have drawn and that they were years removed from having drawn money. Only exceptions were the few brands like Flair or Hogan who had their audience regardless of promotion. Same deal with Flair in 1991. The elephant in the room is that Flair was pulling barely more than a thousand a show when he left WCW. WWF was doing 6x that number. Even their B shows were outdrawing Flair 3 to 1. One temptation that exists in that industry is to think that promoters can manufacture lost interest in talent. That just never happens. Most WWF fans watch the company to see a WWF product, which involves that 60 second character work in coming to the ring, an easily digestible format that's homogeneous to all the acts involved, the face spots to galvanize the audience, etc. It's Disney. A lot of good, competent pro wrestlers can't transition to Disney readily. Some do. Then you get people like Sabu who has his fans but wouldn't interest most casuals. The smark audience simply isn't that big By the time WCW business somewhat turned around in 1995, Vader got beat clean by an aged Hulk Hogan. It's not that that killed his career. If fans like you, they'll forgive that kind of stuff. But he did have to be repackaged on WWF terms. Whether Vader would have succeeded in that is anyone's guess. Maybe, maybe not. But you have to be glam to get over with the WWF audience. People who look more like pro wrestlers just don't get over there. Not that Vader did, but his act was something that more worked for Japan On that note, I think Warrior would have been HUGE in Japan. Meltzer once wrote that he had "sources" tell him that the audience laughed when he was throwing tables in the ring at a Japan show. I refuse to believe that and watched it myself. Japan has "work rate," except that's a shallow interpretation of what they actually do. They like freaks and making psychology about the warrior pagan spirit that's unique to Japanese culture. Warrior would have gotten over huge there. What's funny about smark favorites like Kenny Omega is how anthropologically stupid people like him are. He really thinks that Japanese wrestling can translate to an American audience. Americans are too literal to get something nuanced like that, and even culturally gluttonous. They don't like challenges in culture. What hurt WWE in the last 20 years were "dream matches" that supplanted standard morality tales that New York always told. Dream matches appeal to smarks. Casuals never think of dream matches as a draw since they don't think wrestling is a real sport. It's a silly mental exercise to be like "Who would win in a real fight? Wolverine or Cyclops?" Casuals don't watch wrestling the same way that they watch football where they'll hoot and holler over a reversal. Casuals don't think "Nice move by the Blue Blazer. He really pwned that tough guy Outlaw Ron Boss. I wonder how he would do against Ravishing Rick Rude." Reaction is different than if an NBA nobody outplayed Michael Jordan, which would have gotten a huge reaction. Casuals think wrestling is just popcorn entertainment, then get into their favorite main acts, convinced that they're more legit than the rest of the undercard. That has been true for a hundred years (at least) Not that any of that mattered to Vince anyway. Dude became a billionaire, so it's not like he had to care. Lazy booking still got him "good enough" numbers in ways that booking carefully never got him before. His meal ticket was Wall Street and making new revenue streams that impressed his real audience: media heads
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saintegenevieve
Mid-Carder
Joined on: Sept 6, 2022 4:19:20 GMT -5
Posts: 192
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Post by saintegenevieve on Jan 15, 2023 18:35:32 GMT -5
I think Perfect could have worked in 2002, but not the way they were using him. Had they used him as an attraction instead of an everyday contender, it would have worked best. He could have had a lot of "dream matches" with guys at the time, most notably Angle and HHH. I still think he was able to give out good performance, maybe not like 1990, but still good. The only questions are how bad was his back, and how much of a drug problem did he have at the time. Both could definitely hinder any kind of push. If you were to ask me, I HIGHLY doubt Hennig was capable of doing 20 minutes with Angle in 2002. There were an abundance of others who could and did. I saw him visibly wind up in 5 minute matches that year. Like face going beat red. Angle was rough. He got into some kind of fight with Eddie Guerrero supposedly because Guerrero couldn't make him slow down. Guerrero was much more athletic and a lot younger, even if he was packing a lot of muscle. I don't see someone at age 43, with a substance abuse problem, holding up for 20 minutes without being overtly protected by management. Hennig didn't earn that kind of privilege since he wasn't a draw in the first place. He wasn't Flair, a main event act, Hogan, or anyone who had to be preserved for the big picture. To give an example since you brought it up. Vader stiffing Shawn Michaels. You can't do that when he's champion and working 220 matches a year, plus media appearances. It's not worth the liability to the company to keep Vader around. Supposedly the Undertaker had similar issues. You can go stiff if you're touring half as much like in WCW (where aged main event guys got a lot of time off) or Japan, where you get lots of time off in between tours. WWF is hustle and bustle. They don't get much time off except at the end of the year. Styles do have to be modified. Consider when Michaels got hurt in February 1997. Look at how erratic the main event scene got. WWF, up to that point, never booked that weird. That Michaels got hurt threw that company into chaos and killed Wrestlemania that year. If it wasn't for Austin-Hart, it would have been the worst WM of all time IMO
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Post by MKSavage on Jan 15, 2023 18:35:32 GMT -5
Vader probably didn't need much of an upgrade, maybe just a newer look.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 15, 2023 19:40:28 GMT -5
Changing Vaders name and removing his mask would've been a horrible idea. He was known world wide as Vader and the mask was basically his trademark feature. People complained when they updated the LOD's look in 98 so changing Vader would've been as bad.
I don't get either how he looked too cartoony for The Attitude Era. He shared the roster with guys like Kane, Goldust, Flash Funk, The Godwins, The Godfather etc. He looked no more cartoony than them.
The key to Vader's downfall was Shawn Michaels. He was Vince's boy and if he had an issue with Vader than Vince would've acted.
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Post by JokerFC on Jan 17, 2023 14:51:23 GMT -5
Vader probably didn't need much of an upgrade, maybe just a newer look. Honestly? He just needed to be booked correctly. He ran away from HBK and sold for him & Hall like he weighed 200lbs. End of Vader.
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jason1980s
Main Eventer
Joined on: Sept 30, 2009 14:58:56 GMT -5
Posts: 2,335
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Post by jason1980s on Jan 17, 2023 22:52:43 GMT -5
I felt like the writing was on the wall for Vader in early 96 when WWF magazine published a fan question to Vader who wrote his name as "Verdur" Like, maybe it was the fan writing incorrectly and maybe WWF magazine published as it was written or maybe the staff just didn't know who he was so early on in WWF. I get typos happen but if you aren't bothering to proofread your guy's name, you must not care about him. Him losing to Bradshaw of all people and calling himself a POS was the end. I think he was gone not long after that. Turning him face was good but there wasn't an amazing backstory about it nor his feud with Goldust. And newer, younger guys were coming in and older guys were starting to finally get over and they were cooler than Vader.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 18, 2023 20:56:02 GMT -5
I will also say there was absolutely no reason why Vader couldn't have been a main eventer in 96/97. He didn't need 5 or 6 title reigns. Beating HBK at SS96 and holding the belt until WM13 would've been golden. It would also have put Taker over huge as being the first man to beat Vader.
However, thinking back the Kuwait incident did him no favours at all. That moment basically doomed any chances of him becoming a main eventer.
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Post by JokerFC on Jan 19, 2023 14:21:28 GMT -5
I will also say there was absolutely no reason why Vader couldn't have been a main eventer in 96/97. He didn't need 5 or 6 title reigns. Beating HBK at SS96 and holding the belt until WM13 would've been golden. It would also have put Taker over huge as being the first man to beat Vader. However, thinking back the Kuwait incident did him no favours at all. That moment basically doomed any chances of him becoming a main eventer. Kuwait incident was the end for him really....You can only imagine Vince's reaction when he heard that sh*t LOL....
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jason1980s
Main Eventer
Joined on: Sept 30, 2009 14:58:56 GMT -5
Posts: 2,335
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Post by jason1980s on Jan 19, 2023 17:15:07 GMT -5
I forgot about the Kuwait incident. He had a temper and he could be beyond stiff in the ring to where it would actually hurt guys. Of course it was the lower level guys who paid for it. He and Harley did a show where Harley slapped him on the back in fun to say Hi and Vader thought it was someone trying to mess with him and was aggressive before seeing who it was. He also wasn't a Vince creation and Vince couldn't turn him into a WWF style character. Kuwait could be a real turning point in WWF's faith in him. His PPV appearances were fewer afterwards. I know the Sid Summerslam match was scrapped because of Sid's injury but Vader didn't make KOTR or most of the In Your House's. His feud with Canada seemed to come out of nowhere, for no reason. And him being Survivor Series 97 captain was basically a version of 96-a bunch of guys with no direction, only Bulldog and Neidhart and Furnas and Lafon had connections and both teams had no connection. He rarely made any 98 PPVs, I think only Rumble, No Way Out and whatever PPV he lost to Bradshaw.
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Post by The Brain on Jan 19, 2023 17:18:32 GMT -5
Sad to see what Vader was reduced to at the tail end of the WWF run in 98. Jobber pretty much
Damn shame
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Jan 19, 2023 17:41:04 GMT -5
I forgot about the Kuwait incident. He had a temper and he could be beyond stiff in the ring to where it would actually hurt guys. Of course it was the lower level guys who paid for it. He and Harley did a show where Harley slapped him on the back in fun to say Hi and Vader thought it was someone trying to mess with him and was aggressive before seeing who it was. He also wasn't a Vince creation and Vince couldn't turn him into a WWF style character. Kuwait could be a real turning point in WWF's faith in him. His PPV appearances were fewer afterwards. I know the Sid Summerslam match was scrapped because of Sid's injury but Vader didn't make KOTR or most of the In Your House's. His feud with Canada seemed to come out of nowhere, for no reason. And him being Survivor Series 97 captain was basically a version of 96-a bunch of guys with no direction, only Bulldog and Neidhart and Furnas and Lafon had connections and both teams had no connection. He rarely made any 98 PPVs, I think only Rumble, No Way Out and whatever PPV he lost to Bradshaw. I also remember in his final WWE days he was demoted to Sunday Night Heat. There was also that 98 PPV where he lost his mask to Kane and then called himself a piece of Sh*t.
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