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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2008 11:19:35 GMT -5
There is no denying what ROH has accomplished and what they have meant to the Indy community. ROH has a loyal following which at times is blind too or refuses to see the real picture and what is in front of them.
Is the ROH PPV a kiss of death for the company. Past history would dictate to us that fast large scale growth usually sinks many an Indy company do to the amount of money being pumped into these ventures and the lack of money coming in.
ROH needs to have a plan in place to reach and bring in new fans, as the core demographic of fans are growing up, going away to school, getting married, and just plain growing up, which I am sure means less tickets and dvd's bought which overall effects the companies bottom line.
Some points to ponder below.
I would think business is down and ROH needs fast cash from the fans. Why else would a successful company run 35% off sales and $10 ticket sales all the time?
More midwest and fly in talent are being taken off the shows, such as BJ Whitmer, Adam Pierce to name a few are off due to the flight costs in an attempt to save money.
On the other hand more Chikara guys are being brought in because they are willing to fill up a car and all drive to whereever together.
Remember hearing about record breaking sales, record breaking crowds and all that other record breaking bullshit? Don't you think if ROH's PPV's were doing great numbers you would've heard about them now?
It doesn't seem the PPV venture has been succesful, alot of money was spent upgrading production as well as signing numerous contracts. This has not translated well to the bottom line for ROH.
The ROH school bombed and was a money losing venture, not one viable star was born from the ROH school. Has the ROH school quietly closed??
The biggest problem I see for ROH is the wrestlers themselves, the guys that kill themselves in the ring, risking injury to put on a show for the fans. That style of wrestling cannot be done every weekend and that is what will ultimatly kill ROH as growth is impossible with that style.
With all the news on concussions in wrestling, ROH should do more to protect their investment, meaning the wrestlers, but if they change their style the fans will turn, thus killing the company.
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Post by The Raven Effect on Jan 22, 2008 11:49:19 GMT -5
There is no denying what ROH has accomplished and what they have meant to the Indy community. ROH has a loyal following which at times is blind too or refuses to see the real picture and what is in front of them. Very true, I agree. [ You're right in the fact that past ventures would say so. Gabe said in an interview that "this is not Barely Legal." This is a taped show, which is way way cheaper then a live PPV sent out for showing. Gabe also stated that he was against the PPV move as soon as he heard it, but once he heard this wasn't about the PPV buys and more about ROH's name getting out there, and that if it was a total failure they could pull out easily with little money lost, he begrudgingly went ahead with it. So with 5 PPV's taped and a 6th scheduled for March, I think it's so far so good. I know they signed on for 6 PPV's so we will have to see if they re-sign. Also I am seeing many people on message boards buy these PPV's and then turn around and buy some DVDs, so that is good news for them. Agreed. 2 reasons: 1) DVD's are there main revenue. They are very cheap to make and they make loads of profit on them. So the more sales the have, the more DVD's they will sell. Let's face it, I buy every ROH DVD, but if I paid $20 for all of them, in no way would I be doing that. But for $13 a DVD? Hey, why the hell not? I love the product. And with cheaper DVDs, people can afford to buy more of them. 2) Tickets are almost pure profit, and the $10 tickets are only general admission. Plus if you get people in the building cheap, they can buy DVD's from their gimmick table. Simple. Well yeah, saving money. A business is all about maximizing revenue. If the CHIKARA guys will bring in a new fan base, produce great matches, and sell tickets/DVDs, why not? I can't think of a single person who loves Adam Pearce or BJ Whitmer to the point where if they aren't on a show they won't go. I recall hearing sell outs, but sales? Not one word. The only thing I have heard is that Joe vs. Kobashi pretty much saved them in 2005 and is there highest selling DVD to date. And I do believe they sold out the Manhattan Center, but barely, as there were plenty of tickets at the door the day of the show (that they did sell, lucky them). I don't know about the PPV numbers, but I do know they stated Driven did better then Respect Is Earned and that's the last I heard. They're a private company so if they don't want to release the numbers, they don't have to. Defensive strategy. They have nothing to gain and a reputation to potentially lose (if the numbers are no good) by releasing the numbers. See above where you previously talked about PPV. I believe they start a class this week. And hey, Bobby Dempsey, Pelle Primeau, and Alex Payne are way over with certain crowds, and I find Rhett Titus entertaining as hell. Even Hagadorn has made a mark in ROH in the past couple years. So I wouldn't call it a complete fail. And what's the harm in giving some guys a shot at there dream? The school is mostly profit as well. The only costs are the building, equipment, ring, etc. (which are sunk costs anyhow, cuz they bought it all years ago) and the trainers salary (in this, an increase in Delirous' pay). Once again I completely agree. Luckily, ROH does realize this and does care about the wrestlers well being. Hence why Nowinski came in to talk to them and some wrestlers and staying off shows when hurt (Nigel in Manhattan on 12/30 for example). So those are my thoughts. |
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Post by the franchise on Jan 22, 2008 13:00:53 GMT -5
Pearce doesn't make it to all shows because he has other shows he has to be at. He is the NWA champ. The ticket and sale arguement is very weak. I guess you never heard of sales in volume.
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Post by Lennon on Jan 22, 2008 13:55:23 GMT -5
They've done sales FOREVER. I don't see your point there. Also, The school is still going.
Otherwise, I agree with a lot of what you've said.
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Post by therealjswo on Jan 22, 2008 17:23:33 GMT -5
So, which DOI or JAPW staffer did this come from? Stand up and identify yourself. There is no denying what ROH has accomplished and what they have meant to the Indy community. ROH has a loyal following which at times is blind too or refuses to see the real picture and what is in front of them. Wow, what an impactful opening paragraph. On top of giving you the example of everything having diehard followers from music acts to actors/actresses, to sports teams, your favorite company has a plethora of people you claim as blind and refusing to see the real picture. Swing and a miss. Is the ROH PPV a kiss of death for the company. Past history would dictate to us that fast large scale growth usually sinks many an Indy company do to the amount of money being pumped into these ventures and the lack of money coming in. While past history is one thing, you also learn from the past. With the numbers ROH is doing on PPV, there's no losses, so keep trying to find more negatives. ROH needs to have a plan in place to reach and bring in new fans, as the core demographic of fans are growing up, going away to school, getting married, and just plain growing up, which I am sure means less tickets and dvd's bought which overall effects the companies bottom line. Actually, if they're going away to school, or getting married then they gain new relationships with new potential for business. It's laughable so far. Some points to ponder below. This ought to be histerical. I would think business is down and ROH needs fast cash from the fans. Why else would a successful company run 35% off sales and $10 ticket sales all the time? They've run crazy sales since Feinslime was running the company. Try again. More midwest and fly in talent are being taken off the shows, such as BJ Whitmer, Adam Pierce to name a few are off due to the flight costs in an attempt to save money. No talent is being taken off shows. Pearce is NWA Champ and hasn't been on every show since he started. Whitmer's done each and every show for quite a while. Are you just making crapup now? Yup. On the other hand more Chikara guys are being brought in because they are willing to fill up a car and all drive to whereever together. Last I checked the only CHIKARA guys in ROH are Jigsaw(involved in a top level faction) and Quack(not yet full time). If you're counting Hero, Sweeney, Claudio, and Ruckus, then that too is laughable. Remember hearing about record breaking sales, record breaking crowds and all that other record breaking bull ****? Don't you think if ROH's PPV's were doing great numbers you would've heard about them now? Or the fact that G-Funk is in charge of releasing numbers as the people behind the PPV and ROH has chosen to keep them inside the company for now. WWE is a public company therefore they have to release numbers, ROH isn't thus they don't. It doesn't seem the PPV venture has been succesful, alot of money was spent upgrading production as well as signing numerous contracts. This has not translated well to the bottom line for ROH. Last I checked, the company was doing well enough that they could afford to lose 25K in San Francisco and still continue to do business. Jesus christ, get a  ing clue. The ROH school bombed and was a money losing venture, not one viable star was born from the ROH school. Has the ROH school quietly closed?? Delirious is training kids each week and the students have steadily improved. Do you think people become Ric Flair overnight? I'm sure all of those great students from the AWA school in Jersey are Tully Blanchard and Owen Hart combined. The biggest problem I see for ROH is the wrestlers themselves, the guys that kill themselves in the ring, risking injury to put on a show for the fans. That style of wrestling cannot be done every weekend and that is what will ultimatly kill ROH as growth is impossible with that style. I agree here, but it's up to the wrestlers themselves to dictate the style they work. ROH wouldn't have paid Chris Nowinski a ridiculous fee to help educate the boys if they didn't care for their health. Not to mention the health coverage the boys have. With all the news on concussions in wrestling, ROH should do more to protect their investment, meaning the wrestlers, but if they change their style the fans will turn, thus killing the company. They did, by bringing in Nowinski and paying him thousands of dollars to speak to the wrestlers. It's clear who is writing this, well not specifically who but where their bias is directed toward. I strongly encourage the writer to get a life and improve himself. |
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Post by AP on Jan 22, 2008 20:48:52 GMT -5
Ha.
I love JSWO's "quote every little nugget" act.
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newfrigginshow
Main Eventer
NFS
Joined on: Jul 13, 2006 8:23:46 GMT -5
Posts: 1,427
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Post by newfrigginshow on Jan 23, 2008 10:52:32 GMT -5
I agree to some degree with most of what you are saying. I still think the style could be toned down a bit without losing the fan base. Honestly when you see so many stiff spots in a row they begin to seem less special. I'd like to see them find a way to keep fans informed of what's going on in regards to fueds and stuff. I'd pay for a monthly newsletter with links to some matches if they'd offer it. It's hard for me to keep up with what's going on and I usually don't go searching for results.
Regardless they are smart and will find a way to stay relevant. Easily my favorite fed. I can watch ROH and never get bored and never really criticize. I can't say that about the "big" two.
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Post by lugerfan1 on Jan 23, 2008 13:58:39 GMT -5
As long as they don't try to compete with WWE, they'll be ok. They can stay king of he indys for a while. But they can't get bigger than that. Not enough people like their style of wrestling.
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Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jan 23, 2008 21:20:08 GMT -5
I think if anything NOAH is gonna hurt ROH a lot this year by using a lot of ROH guys on their tours. If notice ROH is already running less shows this year then they were last year. Instead of running 3 weeks a month they are running 2 weeks a month and only have one double shot in February.
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Post by therealjswo on Jan 23, 2008 22:20:46 GMT -5
I think if anything NOAH is gonna hurt ROH a lot this year by using a lot of ROH guys on their tours. If notice ROH is already running less shows this year then they were last year. Instead of running 3 weeks a month they are running 2 weeks a month and only have one double shot in February. According to the schedule they'll be running more shows this year then last year. Announced dates are through March with two other shows being announced for April & June respectively. That's essentially 9 months to run more shows. Also I don't recall them ever running 3 weekends a month every month. |
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Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jan 23, 2008 22:46:59 GMT -5
Here is an interesting read on the DOI. I know everyone feels the DOI has had a "bias" towards ROH but none the less I thought it was interesting. Not sure how much of this is true or not but it does make sense that ROH would cut back on flights now that they have book a lot of other guys like Necro Butcher & Tyler Black.
The DOI has gotten several emails and a link to a Wrestlingobserver.com plug, talking about ROH looking to scale down a bit. It seems that several talents have been told that they will be unbooked for a while, as ROH tries to cycle in fresher faces. Also, the thinking also is that if you take guys off a few shows, when they are back on it will mean something & make the wrestlers more important. However, that doesn't pay the bills for the wrestlers. BJ Whitmer & Adam Pearce are two of the guys who we've heard, that will be on the side lines for a bit.
We've also heard rumors about low PPV buyrates and DVD sales not increasing as expected, as the source for ROH looking to cut back on flights and unnecessary expenses, but as of right now, those rumors aren't confirmed.
In the last few days, ROH has taken Necro Butcher & Jack Evans off of (their own) future events, claiming a personal issue for Necro and an injury issue for Jack.
We've also been told by several people that the upcoming issue of the highly esteemed Wrestling Observer newsletter will touch all these topics and give more details.
Keep checking the DOI website and message board for more. You can also win free ROH tickets in Orlando by visiting the Greg H message board, at declarationofindependents.net/forum. Check out the board for details.
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Post by therealjswo on Jan 23, 2008 23:01:41 GMT -5
Considering that is the same crapthat pedophile lover put in this thread, you can mark it as false. Pearce was never on every show to begin with due to his NWA connection. Maybe Sean the Mic should focus on trying to make WSU a little less of a financial disaster instead of writing false news pieces, and placing bounties up for stories on people he's jealous of.
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Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jan 23, 2008 23:13:59 GMT -5
Considering that is the same **** that pedophile lover put in this thread, you can mark it as false. Pearce was never on every show to begin with due to his NWA connection. Maybe Sean the Mic should focus on trying to make WSU a little less of a financial disaster instead of writing false news pieces, and placing bounties up for stories on people he's jealous of. I do have to agree with Sean The Mic though if the story with Sara Del Ray that I read is true. Despite Gabe & Mic's hate or whatever they have for each other, Sara Del Ray shouldn't be losing a pay day. If ROH is running a show that day then I don't see a problem with it as she is under contract but to pull her for no other reason then Gabe and Mic's hatred for each other is pretty childish on Gabe's part. |
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Post by the franchise on Jan 23, 2008 23:14:38 GMT -5
ICP is running a show the same weekend as ROH so I would bet Necro took that booking. I did see that Jack Evans hurt himself on one of the recent Dragon Gate shows.
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Post by therealjswo on Jan 23, 2008 23:22:32 GMT -5
Considering that is the same **** that pedophile lover put in this thread, you can mark it as false. Pearce was never on every show to begin with due to his NWA connection. Maybe Sean the Mic should focus on trying to make WSU a little less of a financial disaster instead of writing false news pieces, and placing bounties up for stories on people he's jealous of. I do have to agree with Sean The Mic though if the story with Sara Del Ray that I read is true. Despite Gabe & Mic's hate or whatever they have for each other, Sara Del Ray shouldn't be losing a pay day. If ROH is running a show that day then I don't see a problem with it as she is under contract but to pull her for no other reason then Gabe and Mic's hatred for each other is pretty childish on Gabe's part. Let's say you ran a business and said business was increasingly successful each year. You could now make your employees stay exclusive, however one employee was asked to take a job elsewhere and that business competed for the same market yours did. Would you let your exclusively contracted employee work for the competition. As for the above comparison SHIMMER and WSU are the companies I'm comparing. The difference being one is run by a guy who knows what he's doing and is helped at being funded by ROH and the other is run by a clown whose jealousy runs so deep that he can't see how it's killing his own business. If Sean wouldn't go out of his way to be a jackass and spread false rumors about Gabe, Cary, and the rest of the employees of ROH he wouldn't have to worry about ladies being banned from his money losing shows. Lastly, the fault here is on Sean and Sean alone for his problem with Gabe. It's funny because Gabe doesn't visit the site and neither does anyone else I know at the ROH office. Sean makes it out to where it's a war against him and him alone. If it wasn't for his mouth constantly running about anti-ROH everything he wouldn't have these problems. I think it's sad because his site could be a very valuable tool for indy wrestling yet even with GregH trying to straighten him out Sean can't keep himself out of trouble. I feel bad for Sean because of his past mistakes and he's still got time to correct himself and his life. But if he keeps up with antics like putting bounties out for stories on people that he's going to make up himself then he really needs to head directly to psycho therapy. |
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Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jan 23, 2008 23:44:09 GMT -5
Wait, I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at on the first part. Are you saying that WSU is running head to head with Shimmer that day, are you saying that WSU asked Sara to do a job and ROH/Shimmer didn't want that or are you saying something else that I'm not quite following? If Shimmer is running a show that day then I do agree that Sara should be there and as far as jobbing goes, I do think that could of been worked out. Sara Del Ray shouldn't of been pulled off the show because of that. It's two different companys so I don't see how a job would really hurt. I mean Sara Del Ray jobbed to Alicia in JAPW when she was Shimmer champion when I do believe Alica was WSU Champion. Even so though, I think even if Shimmer didn't want her doing the job, she should of still been able to work the show and if Gabe didn't want her working the show at all then he should of at least paid her what she was getting to make up for her loss of a pay day.
Further more, just wondering JSWO, how do you know that WSU is losing money? Just curious.
Oh and I completely agree about the DOI. If they could get away from posting the bullcrapthat no one cares about like the Vinnie The Guido & Danny Demanto crap they could be a very successful site. Not that they aren't now, but I do believe they could be something different.
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Post by therealjswo on Jan 24, 2008 0:07:39 GMT -5
Wait, I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at on the first part. Are you saying that WSU is running head to head with Shimmer that day, are you saying that WSU asked Sara to do a job and ROH/Shimmer didn't want that or are you saying something else that I'm not quite following? If Shimmer is running a show that day then I do agree that Sara should be there and as far as jobbing goes, I do think that could of been worked out. Sara Del Ray shouldn't of been pulled off the show because of that. It's two different companys so I don't see how a job would really hurt. Basically the jist of my analogy was if you had an employee would you want him/her to work for your direct competition even though she agreed to be exclusive to you? Add on the fact Sean is the WSU booker and he's not a trustworthy person. I mean Sara Del Ray jobbed to Alicia in JAPW when she was Shimmer champion when I do believe Alica was WSU Champion. Even so though, I think even if Shimmer didn't want her doing the job, she should of still been able to work the show and if Gabe didn't want her working the show at all then he should of at least paid her what she was getting to make up for her loss of a pay day. It's one thing to do a job to someone at JAPW where Gabe doesn't care if his wrestlers work, but it's another for them to work for Sean's company that is direct competition to SHIMMER. Further more, just wondering JSWO, how do you know that WSU is losing money? Just curious. It's an all female indy, with names like Tammy Sytch and Missy Hyatt. Those two don't get paid cheaply. Plus the live crowds and dvd sales(rumored to be in the hundreds sold) are nothing. Oh and I completely agree about the DOI. If they could get away from posting the bull **** that no one cares about like the Vinnie The Guido & Danny Demanto crap they could be a very successful site. Not that they aren't now, but I do believe they could be something different. One of the first lessons I learned when I began taking classes for my major(journalism with a minor in small business communication law), was that if you run a website and you have write focus on grudges you'll develop a negative connotation to your website. Ethos(credibility) is non-existant when it comes to the DOI. Grudges, bitterness, and pedophilia support doesn't eqaute to a smart business plan. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2008 0:29:05 GMT -5
Unfortunatly it is starting to look like what I said and what has been reported is looking to be true. JSWO isnt the only one with friends in ROH and now Meltzer is starting to report and confirm what I was saying in my original post. It was also mentioned Puder is already done with ROH because of the costs associated with bringing him in. My claim of Necro Butcher starting to look true as well. I also just spoke to someone and they announced that Ibushi Kota will be coming in from Japan and they reaction wasn't anything special, I am sure many didnt know who he was in attendance. And here lays the current problem for ROH, they will mark out and bring in a Japanese wrestler that is for the most part and unkown here in the US. With the money issues and the boys losing work, they will lose more work when this guy arrives. The thousands they will spend on a this guy could be better utilized grooming american talent and featuring them on the regular and building them up as well as not cutting back on the current wrestlers on the roster. Ibushi Kota is kind of like a skinny Japanese version of Red, Deranged, Brian XL, he is an extra flippy wrestler with a few head drops and weak pulled kicks and his movset is very choreographed. He does alot of the same spot transitions with different opponents, after a few matches ROH fans will have seen everything he offers.  |
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Post by the franchise on Jan 27, 2008 0:43:30 GMT -5
Ibushi is a mix of KENTA and Jack Evans.
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Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jan 27, 2008 0:56:25 GMT -5
Puder done with ROH is a good. If ROH was going through these troubles I don't know why they booked him in the first place. I'm glad he's gone though. I don't know who this new Japanese guy is, but I guess ROH's knows this guy can have matches with a lot of ROH regulars and will sell DVD's. That's the only thing I can think of otherwise I agree, it wouldn't make sense to bring him in when other wrestlers are losing paydays.
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