|
|
Post by iyfwkidzc on Jun 12, 2008 10:10:31 GMT -5
Another reason why I hate Vince McMahon. Flair isn't even doing anything for WWE right now. So why the  can't he go to an event for a company that isn't even in WWE's league. |
|
|
|
Post by carly1988 on Jun 12, 2008 10:22:09 GMT -5
I still fail to see what the big deal is about this. I mean so what, they are gonna have 2 wrestlers stand in the ring, shake hands and the crowd will chant "This is awesome" or something like that. Its not like Flair or Kobashi has any big past. Have they ever even met in a ring before? If the one and only visual site I see of them together is a handshake I would rather just keep the story as a "what if"
|
|
jlavaia
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 25, 2007 20:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,310
|
Post by jlavaia on Jun 12, 2008 12:12:37 GMT -5
yeah it's just a publicity stunt. Flair and Kobashi have never wrestled and never should and never should have. Kobashi is one of the greatest wrestlers ever and Flair was a decent at best wrestler and a great talker. it wouldnt be a good match. i cant understand why this would make anyone happy. what's the big deal. b/c they both use chops. we got to see Kobashi vs. Sasaki for that. and wow, they'll shake hands. why is this something that's big and historic? i bet Kobashi doesnt even know who Flair is.
|
|
|
|
Post by therealjswo on Jun 12, 2008 12:24:01 GMT -5
yeah it's just a publicity stunt. Flair and Kobashi have never wrestled and never should and never should have. Kobashi is one of the greatest wrestlers ever and Flair was a decent at best wrestler and a great talker. it wouldnt be a good match. i cant understand why this would make anyone happy. what's the big deal. b/c they both use chops. we got to see Kobashi vs. Sasaki for that. and wow, they'll shake hands. why is this something that's big and historic? i bet Kobashi doesnt even know who Flair is. This could be the single worst post in the history of this message board. That's an accomplishment. So many highlights(or low lowlights) here, "i bet Kobashi doesnt even know who Flair is" and "Flair was a decent at best wrestler" both stand out as absolutely insane comments. |
|
|
|
Post by Flyrfn144 on Jun 12, 2008 13:18:01 GMT -5
Another reason why I hate Vince McMahon. Flair isn't even doing anything for WWE right now. So why the can't he go to an event for a company that isn't even in WWE's league. Umm, Vince didn't say anything about this. Kobashi cannot make it back to ROH, had nothing to do with Flair other than he was going to take part in the handshake. |
|
jlavaia
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 25, 2007 20:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,310
|
Post by jlavaia on Jun 12, 2008 13:28:59 GMT -5
yeah it's just a publicity stunt. Flair and Kobashi have never wrestled and never should and never should have. Kobashi is one of the greatest wrestlers ever and Flair was a decent at best wrestler and a great talker. it wouldnt be a good match. i cant understand why this would make anyone happy. what's the big deal. b/c they both use chops. we got to see Kobashi vs. Sasaki for that. and wow, they'll shake hands. why is this something that's big and historic? i bet Kobashi doesnt even know who Flair is. This could be the single worst post in the history of this message board. That's an accomplishment. So many highlights(or low lowlights) here, "i bet Kobashi doesnt even know who Flair is" and "Flair was a decent at best wrestler" both stand out as absolutely insane comments. why would Kobashi know Flair? Flair was a champion in the US. Kobashi in Japan. the best in the world have gone to Japan to wrestle Kobashi. Flair went to Japan and wrestled Masahiro Chono. he may have heard his name, but maybe not. Flair may not know Kobashi either. probaly just heard his name a few times. and Flair was not that good in the ring. he can keep up and put on a decent match, but he was not a great wrestler and definitely not the best wrestler in the 80s. Flair became a star due to his mic work and charisma, same as alot of wrestlers from that era like Dusty Rhodes and Hogan. if you actual watch his matches, you'd see that he has a very basic move set, that anyone trained in wrestling can perform. he never expanded on it and he never fully developed his in ring skills as his main strength was his talking ability. let's look at it like this, in the 80s Satoru Sayama wrestled as Tiger Mask. he was a great wrestler. Flair was not a better wrestler than Sayama, so Flair cannot be the best wrestler of 80s. he was decent, not great. his matches with Steamboat are the perfect example. Steamboat was a great wrestler who outwrestled Flair in each of their matches. Flair did not come off as the better wrestler in their matches. i understand that you're a big Flair mark and probaly never seen one of his matches from that era and you just listen to what the announcers say and see that he won alot of titles so you stupidly assume that he was a great wrestler, so you put down another person who corrects you because you have no true knowledge of wrestling. it's okay. actually watch his matches from that era and you'll see that he wasnt that great of a wrestler. i'm sure someone can pm you a link to one of his matches or you can pick up a dvd with a match on it. |
|
|
|
Post by therealjswo on Jun 12, 2008 13:52:21 GMT -5
Let's go old school here and break down each sentence disproving further why this guy has no idea what's he's speaking about. why would Kobashi know Flair? Flair was a champion in the US. Kobashi in Japan. the best in the world have gone to Japan to wrestle Kobashi. Flair went to Japan and wrestled Masahiro Chono. All Japan had no working deal with WCW like NJPW did. So when Flair went to Japan he worked with NJPW as opposed to AJPW and later NOAH where Kobashi was. he may have heard his name, but maybe not. Flair may not know Kobashi either. probaly just heard his name a few times. Pro wrestling is a business based on getting to be the best. In 99% of those cases, guys watch tapes and swap tapes with one another. Kobashi has seen Flair and vice versa. Hell when Kobashi visited a WWE show at Budokan Hall a few years back there was an article on WWE.com mentioning Triple H and Ric Flair specifically seeking out Kobashi. This is of course not to be confused with when WWE.com label Yuji Nagata as just a fan in a photo with Flair last year. and Flair was not that good in the ring. he can keep up and put on a decent match, but he was not a great wrestler and definitely not the best wrestler in the 80s. This too is laughable. While there are no facts that state who is better then whom, when everyone from Triple H down to Steve Austin and a lot of everyone in between say Flair's the best ever it's incredibly hard to argue with generic statements like you made. Flair became a star due to his mic work and charisma, same as alot of wrestlers from that era like Dusty Rhodes and Hogan. Rhodes and Hogan were guys who got over on personality. Flair got over on his promos that sold his matches. His matches kept people coming back to see him get his ass kicked. I'm stunned by your ignorance. if you actual watch his matches, you'd see that he has a very basic move set, that anyone trained in wrestling can perform. he never expanded on it and he never fully developed his in ring skills as his main strength was his talking ability. I've watched thousands of Flair matches. Hell there's a pretty famous amongst tape traders comp I made in 2000 with the top 50 Flair matches of all time ranging from 1981-2000. Close to 45 hours of footage. If you discount Ric Flair's in ring work, then there is no other way to say it then you don't know a damn thing about wrestling. let's look at it like this, in the 80s Satoru Sayama wrestled as Tiger Mask. he was a great wrestler. Flair was not a better wrestler than Sayama, so Flair cannot be the best wrestler of 80s. he was decent, not great. So by your logic your opinion which is in the smallest minority is fact and the rest of the millions of wrestling fans out there as well as the thousands of pro wrestlers who actually do the same stuff Flair does isn't relevent? his matches with Steamboat are the perfect example. Steamboat was a great wrestler who outwrestled Flair in each of their matches. Flair did not come off as the better wrestler in their matches. That's the entire booking point of their matches. Steamboat as the face is supposed to out wrestle Flair who is the cheating heel. At least try to sound like you know what you are talking about. i understand that you're a big Flair mark and probaly never seen one of his matches from that era and you just listen to what the announcers say and see that he won alot of titles so you stupidly assume that he was a great wrestler Yup, never seen a Flair match prior to 2001 when he headed back to WWE. Idiot. so you put down another person who corrects you because you have no true knowledge of wrestling. it's okay. actually watch his matches from that era and you'll see that he wasnt that great of a wrestler. i'm sure someone can pm you a link to one of his matches or you can pick up a dvd with a match on it. This is tremendous. I've been around the different versions of this board since AFR and seen a bunch of morons. Some who've managed to keep posting for years. But in one day we've reached a new all time low. Wow. |
|
jlavaia
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 25, 2007 20:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,310
|
Post by jlavaia on Jun 12, 2008 15:11:56 GMT -5
so what you're saying to me is that Flair is actually the best wrestler ever, but the promotors made him get outwrestled in every one of his matches. that makes no sense. there are plenty of heels that are very good wrestlers and show it in every one of their matches.
and the fact that you made a Flair comp like that tells me why we shouldnt even be having this discussion as you are like i said, a huge Flair mark. which is why you obviously are blind to his in ring flaws. and using Triple H, himself not the best in ring wrestler, as an example of a wrestler calling Flair great doesnt prove anything. they're also friends. and Austin never said that Flair was the greatest wrestler ever, so you now you're just making stuff up.
you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, and you're right there is no way to truly judge the best, and it's all opinion. i would also like to apologize for not agreeing with your blind opinions about a wrestler that you really seem to like.
i would also like to say that i love how the internet, let's little chumps like this guy who posted above run their mouths like there tough and insult others, while in real life this guy would never call someone a moron to their face as he'd know he'd never be seen again. i didnt insult you little kid, so dont insult me. if you really think you're big come to Bull City, you child.
|
|
|
|
Post by therealjswo on Jun 12, 2008 15:23:53 GMT -5
so what you're saying to me is that Flair is actually the best wrestler ever, but the promotors made him get outwrestled in every one of his matches. that makes no sense. there are plenty of heels that are very good wrestlers and show it in every one of their matches. The whole point of a cocky heel is to get his ass kicked. That's Flair's gimmick. It's not the promoters either, it's the booker and the wrestlers themselves who want to make it most realistic. and the fact that you made a Flair comp like that tells me why we shouldnt even be having this discussion as you are like i said, a huge Flair mark. which is why you obviously are blind to his in ring flaws. and using Triple H, himself not the best in ring wrestler, as an example of a wrestler calling Flair great doesnt prove anything. they're also friends. and Austin never said that Flair was the greatest wrestler ever, so you now you're just making stuff up. Watch the entire WWE 2008 HOF ceremony they talk about Austin saying Flair's the best ever. While HHH isn't that great for someone in his position to call Flair the best establishes that he truly is one of if not the best. I made the Flair comp because I was asked to and had access to the footage. you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, and you're right there is no way to truly judge the best, and it's all opinion. i would also like to apologize for not agreeing with your blind opinions about a wrestler that you really seem to like. There's no blind opinions here, simply a body of work that deserves praise beyond pretty much everyone else. i would also like to say that i love how the internet, let's little chumps like this guy who posted above run their mouths like there tough and insult others, while in real life this guy would never call someone a moron to their face as he'd know he'd never be seen again. i didnt insult you little kid, so dont insult me. if you really think you're big come to Bull City, you child. That seems like a pretty good summation of yourself. Well done. |
|
jlavaia
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 25, 2007 20:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,310
|
Post by jlavaia on Jun 12, 2008 15:48:14 GMT -5
maybe if you were alive when Flair began his career and actually saw the matches when they occured i'd take you seriously. but you're too young to have seen anything of his from 80s and actually remember it. watching a bunch of old tapes that i doubt are of good quality are why you think he's the greatest ever. also the WWE Hall of Fame is the biggest joke in the business. Pete Rose and William Perry are in it. so you bringing that up also shows that you are just a complete mark and you have no opinion yourself, you just say what the WWE says.
i asked for one match that showcases Flair as the greatest ever and you've yet to provide one. all you do is blame bookers for his poor in ring abilities. you say that it was Flair's gimmick. i saw his matches from when he went to japan (where there are no gimmicks) and he still got outwrestled there. like i said he was decent at best, but he was one of the greatest talkers in history. i'd say only The Rock beats him there, but it's pretty much a toss up. grow up, purchase dvds (they're of much better quality, especially for older stuff from the late 70s, early 80s), and forge your own opinions.
and really you've gotten way off topic. there would be no reason for them to shake each others hand inside of a ROH ring. Flair never wrestled there and never wrestled Kobashi. and ROH wouldnt just stupidly throw away money like that. this came out as a publicity stunt, so that more people would notice ROH and buy their ppvs, which will move them up and get them the tv deal that they're looking for. this kind of thing has been happening for years in wrestling, had you been older and watching before 2001, then you'd know this.
i'm done wasting my time with a WWE mark posting in the Other Feds board. i dont think that this is the board for you. Flair's a WWE employee, so go to the WWE board and make an appreciation thread for him there.
|
|
jlavaia
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 25, 2007 20:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,310
|
Post by jlavaia on Jun 12, 2008 15:51:02 GMT -5
i would also like to say that i love how the internet, let's little chumps like this guy who posted above run their mouths like there tough and insult others, while in real life this guy would never call someone a moron to their face as he'd know he'd never be seen again. i didnt insult you little kid, so dont insult me. if you really think you're big come to Bull City, you child. That seems like a pretty good summation of yourself. Well done. nice come back, saying exactly what i said to you and putting it back to me. very clever. i dont think i've heard of that occuring before. your quite witty for someone so young. like i said, you have no opinion yourself, you just repeat back things you hear from other places and other people. |
|
|
|
Post by Ultimate Figure Collector on Jun 12, 2008 16:24:04 GMT -5
I would just want to see Flair, I could careless about them shaking hands. It wouldn't be "historic" to me. But it is historic because you have the best wrestler of the 80's shaking hands with the best wrestler of the 90's in a company with the best wrestling in the 2000's. Just buy the DVD, but it's not as if this is going to happen now anyway. I heard that if Flair did do the show anyway, it wouldn't be able to be taped for DVD. Not sure if that's entirely true or not but I wouldn't doubt it with the way Vince works. I'm just not into the whole "shake hands because that is what you're being paid to do". I'd rather see a Flair promo with Sweeney or something and then Flair hit a bunch of chops on him before locking him into the figure four. |
|
|
|
Post by larryz1 on Jun 12, 2008 22:11:17 GMT -5
But Scott Steiner says Flair always sucked and wasn't a draw.
|
|
jlavaia
Main Eventer
Joined on: Oct 25, 2007 20:27:47 GMT -5
Posts: 1,310
|
Post by jlavaia on Jun 12, 2008 22:23:36 GMT -5
But Scott Steiner says Flair always sucked and wasn't a draw. lol. thank you. |
|
|
|
Post by therealjswo on Jun 12, 2008 22:46:33 GMT -5
maybe if you were alive when Flair began his career and actually saw the matches when they occured i'd take you seriously. but you're too young to have seen anything of his from 80s and actually remember it. watching a bunch of old tapes that i doubt are of good quality are why you think he's the greatest ever. So because I rented tapes as a kid, and watched Flair on television. It takes an effort to try and sound this clueless. Kudos. also the WWE Hall of Fame is the biggest joke in the business. Pete Rose and William Perry are in it. so you bringing that up also shows that you are just a complete mark and you have no opinion yourself, you just say what the WWE says. Hahaha. Do you know who the hell I am? Obviously not. I don't even watch WWE television. Completely histerical. i asked for one match that showcases Flair as the greatest ever and you've yet to provide one. all you do is blame bookers for his poor in ring abilities. you say that it was Flair's gimmick. i saw his matches from when he went to japan (where there are no gimmicks) and he still got outwrestled there. Wrestling is fake, anything from Flair/Funk to Flair/Race should be the minimum requirements for seeing Flair's greatness. Hell you could check out Flair/Perfect from Raw in 93 or Flair/Vader from Starrcade 93 and see the obvious. You've yet to provide detailed analysis of why Flair is "decent." like i said he was decent at best, but he was one of the greatest talkers in history. i'd say only The Rock beats him there, but it's pretty much a toss up. grow up, purchase dvds (they're of much better quality, especially for older stuff from the late 70s, early 80s), and forge your own opinions. This is histerical as well. I mean what's more laughable the comments on Flair, not knowing who I am, or telling me to purchase DVD's? and really you've gotten way off topic. there would be no reason for them to shake each others hand inside of a ROH ring. Flair never wrestled there and never wrestled Kobashi. and ROH wouldnt just stupidly throw away money like that. this came out as a publicity stunt, so that more people would notice ROH and buy their ppvs, which will move them up and get them the tv deal that they're looking for. The company isn't actively looking for a TV deal at this time. The goal of Kobashi shaking Flair's hand was to sell out the Hammerstein and provide a moment for 2600 fans in attendence to remember for the rest of their lives. Both names sell tickets, and mean a lot to the majority of the ROH fanbase. If you can't see the point you have no right to watch pro wrestling. this kind of thing has been happening for years in wrestling, had you been older and watching before 2001, then you'd know this. That's cute. If I made a comp tape of Flair in 2000 how could I have started watching in 2001? Do you confuse number order, or have a problem counting? i'm done wasting my time with a WWE mark posting in the Other Feds board. i dont think that this is the board for you. Flair's a WWE employee, so go to the WWE board and make an appreciation thread for him there. WWE mark, LOL ;D   Tremendous stuff. But it is historic because you have the best wrestler of the 80's shaking hands with the best wrestler of the 90's in a company with the best wrestling in the 2000's. Just buy the DVD, but it's not as if this is going to happen now anyway. I heard that if Flair did do the show anyway, it wouldn't be able to be taped for DVD. Not sure if that's entirely true or not but I wouldn't doubt it with the way Vince works. I'm just not into the whole "shake hands because that is what you're being paid to do". I'd rather see a Flair promo with Sweeney or something and then Flair hit a bunch of chops on him before locking him into the figure four. If ROH could have done this, I'd do the handshake deal and then put Flair in Danielson's corner and Kobashi in Shiozaki's corner for a match. If the Kobashi part couldn't work, a segment with Sweeney is the way to go. |
|
|
|
Post by carly1988 on Jun 13, 2008 5:36:18 GMT -5
But Scott Steiner says Flair always sucked and wasn't a draw. Do we really wanna take this mans opinion on who's a great wrestler and who "cant draw"?? Besides Ive always though Muta was the greatest Wrestler in Japan and Flair in the United States. I would rather see these two in a ring again for a final time as a farewell. |
|
Kick Your Face
Main Eventer
Real Join Date: Sep 2003
Joined on: Nov 25, 2007 17:32:21 GMT -5
Posts: 3,141
|
Post by Kick Your Face on Jun 13, 2008 6:55:30 GMT -5
I'd say Jumbo is just as good as Flair (if not, better). But seeing as Jumbo isn't around anymore, Flair is the next best thing to go with and the fact that Kenta Kobashi and Jumbo Tsuruta have had three singles matches in consecutive years. Flair and Kobashi have yet to even be in the same ring. That's what is so legendary about it.
80s - Ric Flair/Jumbo Tsuruta
90s - Kenta Kobashi
|
|
|
|
Post by therealjswo on Jun 13, 2008 8:34:53 GMT -5
I'd say Jumbo is just as good as Flair (if not, better). But seeing as Jumbo isn't around anymore, Flair is the next best thing to go with and the fact that Kenta Kobashi and Jumbo Tsuruta have had three singles matches in consecutive years. Flair and Kobashi have yet to even be in the same ring. That's what is so legendary about it. 80s - Ric Flair/Jumbo Tsuruta 90s - Kenta Kobashi Jumbo was amazing. I've actually got a few Jumbo DVD's laying around, that I've not watched in a while. I'll pop some in this weekend. |
|
|
|
Post by James Hetfield on Jun 13, 2008 10:34:41 GMT -5
Jumbo was ****ty. All he was was JUMPPPPINGUUUUUUU KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. And Akiyama does a better one anyway.
And Flair was a great wrestler back in his hayday. I hate to agree with the other guy, but this would have been a good moment, but there would be nothing historic about it. I highly doubt Flair even remembers who Kobashi is from the matches he wrestled in AJPW.
|
|
|
|
Post by Swarm on Jun 13, 2008 14:41:35 GMT -5
Just throwing my opinion out here since, hell, it looks like the topic has basically degraded into people throwing out their opinions anyway.
To say one person was the end all-be all of wrestling on all accounts in all parts of the world for a decade, a year, a millennium, whatever, is just ridiculous. Misawa and Kawada drew the biggest houses in AJPW history in the early 90s and had the greatest matches (Not to take anything away from the other talent during that time or anything) in the company's (and possibly wrestling's) history. But you know, Kawada and Misawa in 92 didn't really matter to American fans who didn't trade tapes and just watched WWF and WCW. So while Kawada and Misawa may have defined a decade in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean they defined a decade in America.
So now putting that into perspective, while I acknowledge that Ric Flair was a crucial part of pro-wrestling in the 80s and to many is the greatest in-ring performer of that decade, to say he's the best above all else for the 80s is a little much. Remember that wrestling isn't just defined by in-ring work but by your charisma and the money you draw as well. And frankly, Hogan drew more money than Flair did and, in my opinion, Jumbo was a better in-ring performer. I'm not saying that as if it should be considered fact by everyone, but my exact point is there are too many variables to narrow the entire business down to one guy.
As for the original topic, it's too bad (I assume) WWE stepped in and put the kabosh on this whole thing because it would've been cool. Some people asked why it would be significant, and I think it has more to do with the fact that these two legends are shaking hands in front of an audience at a Ring of Honor show than the event itself. I really don't see how this could harm anything WWE's doing and they've had a somewhat working relationship with ROH in the past, so I just don't see why this was necessary.
EDIT
I also just wanted to add one thing. I don't see how in the hell Kobashi could be the wrestler of the 90s when every single match and feud he did was essentially vicariously through being Misawa's partner. Maybe I'm a little Kawada/Misawa-biased, but like, you take out any matches of Kobashi's that didn't include either of those two and you pretty much have three or four classics from the whole decade (Akiyama, Hansen, Williams immediately come to mind). I'm always open to debate though, rather than just trying to shoot other people's opinions down.
|
|
