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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 10:17:22 GMT -5
Luger has proven he could be over with crowds......fighting the nWo in 96/97 is one example but also in late 80s/early 90s WCW.
his failure in 93 was down to the baffling decsion to not give him the title at Summerslam 93 after that build.the celebration after his "win" is even more confusing.
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Post by Nivro™ on Mar 16, 2013 14:00:49 GMT -5
Hogan is actually a decent worker. You can look at his Japanese and AWA stuff and tell that. Warrior though is just entertainment only. Ring work wise, just about any pro wrestler walking could do what he did. Including Lex Luger. False. If Luger could do what Warrior did, Luger would've been as big a star as him. That HuskerTornado post was pretty spot on. A lot of people think being a good wrestler is all about CRISPGERMANS~ and moonsaults, but it isn't. As WrestleMania 6 and 7 prove, you don't have to know a million Japanese armbars to have an all-time classic wrestling match. Warrior was great for his era and he had all the tools needed to be a top star. He was completely passé by his 1998 WCW run, main-event wrestling had evolved past those cartoon characters at the time... But for the late eighties and early nineties, he was practically perfect. There's nothing Warrior did that Luger didnt do...Except shake the ropes. Warrior's basic moves included clotheslines, gorilla presses, shoulder blocks and power slams...The same thing Luger used. However, Luger would still hit you with a drop toe hold as well a a head lock/chin lock from time to time. Like what's already been said, Luger could work but stuck to the basics because it got him by. He was HUGELY over in the mid-late 80s in the NWA after the split with the Horsemen and again over as hell in 93 when he should have been given the title against Yokozuna. Personally, I preferred Luger as a hell more because to me his "Total Package" gimmick in 90-91 was priceless. Would the "Total Package" vs "The Immortal" drawn as big as Hogan vs. Warrior? Probably not, but not because of how over Luger was or because or his ring work but simply because Warrior was a face and it was the first time we were getting "good guy" vs "good guy". The ring work of Hogan-Luger would be almost the same as Hogan-Warrior. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 14:44:07 GMT -5
it was 90% the same.Luger had some good bouts with Hogan and they closely resembled the Warrior stuff.
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Post by Nivro™ on Mar 16, 2013 15:41:13 GMT -5
Luger was a much worse seller IMO then Warrior. his falling straight on his back while slapping the mat with both hands and yelling "Ohhh" was pretty bad LOL
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Post by mikey1974 on Mar 16, 2013 18:19:12 GMT -5
Luger has proven he could be over with crowds......fighting the nWo in 96/97 is one example but also in late 80s/early 90s WCW. his failure in 93 was down to the baffling decsion to not give him the title at Summerslam 93 after that build.the celebration after his "win" is even more confusing. exactly. his WWF career never recovered. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 19:55:13 GMT -5
that finish made Luger look like a moron IMO......
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HuskerTornado
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Post by HuskerTornado on Mar 16, 2013 21:26:33 GMT -5
that finish made Luger look like a moron IMO...... Yeah, that was hilarious when Savage, the Steiners, and Tatanka came out to celebrate his count-out win. The only time I can ever remember anyone celebrating a count out victory, let alone one in a title match. Bizarre booking. |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Mar 16, 2013 22:18:02 GMT -5
That HuskerTornado post was pretty spot on. A lot of people think being a good wrestler is all about CRISPGERMANS~ and moonsaults, but it isn't. As WrestleMania 6 and 7 prove, you don't have to know a million Japanese armbars to have an all-time classic wrestling match. Warrior was great for his era and he had all the tools needed to be a top star. He was completely passé by his 1998 WCW run, main-event wrestling had evolved past those cartoon characters at the time... But for the late eighties and early nineties, he was practically perfect. But the marquee always says WRESTLING. While there are many different styles a guy can use, if his entire repertoire looks like a back-alley bum fight, he gets old in a hurry. Even with brawling-style workers, they have to change and evolve to stay interesting. The Undertaker is a perfect example of a big, character guy who advanced in his ring work to differentiate himself. I often compare basic brawlers to a sitcom that has a solid intro, well-developed characters, aesthetically pleasing sets....and uses the same central plot each week. Regardless of the former aspects, if the main one is lacking, the show simply can't stay interesting. |
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HuskerTornado
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Post by HuskerTornado on Mar 17, 2013 0:40:24 GMT -5
It's the total package. There have been tons of good technical guys that never made it anywhere because they had no charisma in the ring or on the mic. But of course, those guys are amazing and much more entertaining to watch... Fans like this guy below can't understand why they never got pushes.  Warrior did improve greatly from 1986-1992. Had things gone differently and he stuck around, I'm sure he would have continued to improve his in-ring work over time. It's not as if all he did was clothesline and press slam. He utilized suplexes, piledrivers, etc. They just weren't in every match. People focus way too much on what he was not instead of what he did bring to the table. Like I said, too many go out of their way to try to knock him down. You're doing it now, push aside the good and dwell on the shortcomings. |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Mar 17, 2013 2:38:24 GMT -5
It's the total package. There have been tons of good technical guys that never made it anywhere because they had no charisma in the ring or on the mic. But of course, those guys are amazing and much more entertaining to watch... Fans like this guy below can't understand why they never got pushes. Warrior did improve greatly from 1986-1992. Had things gone differently and he stuck around, I'm sure he would have continued to improve his in-ring work over time. It's not as if all he did was clothesline and press slam. He utilized suplexes, piledrivers, etc. They just weren't in every match. People focus way too much on what he was not instead of what he did bring to the table. Like I said, too many go out of their way to try to knock him down. You're doing it now, push aside the good and dwell on the shortcomings. While Warrior did improve ( although he didn't start until his WWF title reign) it was a case of too little, too late. If you care to look, there is a cage match just prior to WM 7 against Randy Savage where Warrior did one real move the entire match, a flying shoulder block. The rest of the time, he punched, kicked, clotheslined. That's simply unacceptable for a main eventer. Prescence, look, mic skills are all important, but they should never trump the physical work. Much like Snipes as Blade or Bale as Batman, audiences wouldn't have bought into the illusion had those guys not taken the time to actually learn their respective martial arts. The champion should never be deficient in any area. He should be able to carry the feud on the mic and carry any opponent to a good match. The truth about Warrior is that he was another Vince McMahon construct like Hogan, Diesel, Batista, JBL, Cena. Vince has always been able to take guys who have a little talent in one area and hide their flaws. Warrior was one of Vince's greatest illusions. |
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PVA
Main Eventer
Too hot to handle and too cold to hold
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Post by PVA on Mar 17, 2013 10:41:47 GMT -5
It's the total package. There have been tons of good technical guys that never made it anywhere because they had no charisma in the ring or on the mic. But of course, those guys are amazing and much more entertaining to watch... Fans like this guy below can't understand why they never got pushes. Warrior did improve greatly from 1986-1992. Had things gone differently and he stuck around, I'm sure he would have continued to improve his in-ring work over time. It's not as if all he did was clothesline and press slam. He utilized suplexes, piledrivers, etc. They just weren't in every match. People focus way too much on what he was not instead of what he did bring to the table. Like I said, too many go out of their way to try to knock him down. You're doing it now, push aside the good and dwell on the shortcomings. While Warrior did improve ( although he didn't start until his WWF title reign) it was a case of too little, too late. If you care to look, there is a cage match just prior to WM 7 against Randy Savage where Warrior did one real move the entire match, a flying shoulder block. The rest of the time, he punched, kicked, clotheslined. That's simply unacceptable for a main eventer.Prescence, look, mic skills are all important, but they should never trump the physical work. Much like Snipes as Blade or Bale as Batman, audiences wouldn't have bought into the illusion had those guys not taken the time to actually learn their respective martial arts. The champion should never be deficient in any area. He should be able to carry the feud on the mic and carry any opponent to a good match. The truth about Warrior is that he was another Vince McMahon construct like Hogan, Diesel, Batista, JBL, Cena. Vince has always been able to take guys who have a little talent in one area and hide their flaws. Warrior was one of Vince's greatest illusions. Why do you keep saying that? What are the rules of a main eventer and what makes them different then any one else? Also, Im pretty sure Ive seen plenty of hogan matches where all you saw were punches & kicks until his boot/legdrop finish. Guess he shouldn't of been main eventing either, huh? The warrior bashing all seems like the bashers are taking a small sample size of warrior wrestling career and generalizing his wrestling career/skills based on one or two matches and promos. Let me remind you, his gimmick was an unstoppable supernatural force who SQUASHED every Joe Nobody. (a la Goldberg) That's why when he did have a feud with a major player, you were suppose to believe warrior may lose because he wasn't squashing his opponents and was showing weakness and being vulnerable. That's why most of his matches were under 5 mins except his PPV. While I wouldn't call him a great technical wrestler by any stretch I thought for someone with limited technical abilities he did a fine job. Because of his persona/charisma he was able to get over and elevate to a major contributor. Comparing wrestlers from the 80s/early 90s to the 2000s/today is apples and oranges. |
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HuskerTornado
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Post by HuskerTornado on Mar 17, 2013 15:07:14 GMT -5
It's the total package. There have been tons of good technical guys that never made it anywhere because they had no charisma in the ring or on the mic. But of course, those guys are amazing and much more entertaining to watch... Fans like this guy below can't understand why they never got pushes. Warrior did improve greatly from 1986-1992. Had things gone differently and he stuck around, I'm sure he would have continued to improve his in-ring work over time. It's not as if all he did was clothesline and press slam. He utilized suplexes, piledrivers, etc. They just weren't in every match. People focus way too much on what he was not instead of what he did bring to the table. Like I said, too many go out of their way to try to knock him down. You're doing it now, push aside the good and dwell on the shortcomings. While Warrior did improve ( although he didn't start until his WWF title reign) it was a case of too little, too late. If you care to look, there is a cage match just prior to WM 7 against Randy Savage where Warrior did one real move the entire match, a flying shoulder block. The rest of the time, he punched, kicked, clotheslined. That's simply unacceptable for a main eventer. Prescence, look, mic skills are all important, but they should never trump the physical work. Much like Snipes as Blade or Bale as Batman, audiences wouldn't have bought into the illusion had those guys not taken the time to actually learn their respective martial arts. The champion should never be deficient in any area. He should be able to carry the feud on the mic and carry any opponent to a good match. The truth about Warrior is that he was another Vince McMahon construct like Hogan, Diesel, Batista, JBL, Cena. Vince has always been able to take guys who have a little talent in one area and hide their flaws. Warrior was one of Vince's greatest illusions. The argument of Warrior being made by McMahon could work if he wasn't the biggest star in WCCW as Dingo Warrior (he was just as popular as the Von Erichs when he left, which is saying something in Dallas). |
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Post by Nivro™ on Mar 17, 2013 15:39:33 GMT -5
While Warrior did improve ( although he didn't start until his WWF title reign) it was a case of too little, too late. If you care to look, there is a cage match just prior to WM 7 against Randy Savage where Warrior did one real move the entire match, a flying shoulder block. The rest of the time, he punched, kicked, clotheslined. That's simply unacceptable for a main eventer. Prescence, look, mic skills are all important, but they should never trump the physical work. Much like Snipes as Blade or Bale as Batman, audiences wouldn't have bought into the illusion had those guys not taken the time to actually learn their respective martial arts. The champion should never be deficient in any area. He should be able to carry the feud on the mic and carry any opponent to a good match. The truth about Warrior is that he was another Vince McMahon construct like Hogan, Diesel, Batista, JBL, Cena. Vince has always been able to take guys who have a little talent in one area and hide their flaws. Warrior was one of Vince's greatest illusions. The argument of Warrior being made by McMahon could work if he wasn't the biggest star in WCCW as Dingo Warrior (he was just as popular as the Von Erichs when he left, which is saying something in Dallas). That's a HUGE stretch!! Kerry was out of action for most of the time Warrior was in WCCW. David had already died and Kevin, while a great ring worker, I think everyone here would agree he was the "worse" of the three main brothers. Warrior debuted in mid/late 86 and was in a tag team. He didnt get into his singles push until early 87 and he was gone by April only to return a few months later and leave again in June for the WWF. Add that with the fact that WCCW had an absolute joke of a roster in late 86-early 87, saying he was second popular behind the Von Erichs is fine but remember its not like that roster was littered with a bunch of hall of famers & superstars. All you had to do was be more popular then The Fantastics. Lets also not forget that during late 86 was when WCCW went to WCWA (although retaining the WCCW name) and was by far the 2nd biggest promotion in Texas behind Bill Watts UWF which was running neck and neck with Jim Crockett's promotion out of Atlanta/Charlotte (WCW). |
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Post by mikey1974 on Mar 17, 2013 18:23:09 GMT -5
LOL! found this little gem hidden on youtube.
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HuskerTornado
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Post by HuskerTornado on Mar 17, 2013 20:26:41 GMT -5
LOL! found this little gem hidden on youtube. Legendary Dingo promo. lol |
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Post by Emerald Enthusiast on Mar 17, 2013 20:27:01 GMT -5
While Warrior did improve ( although he didn't start until his WWF title reign) it was a case of too little, too late. If you care to look, there is a cage match just prior to WM 7 against Randy Savage where Warrior did one real move the entire match, a flying shoulder block. The rest of the time, he punched, kicked, clotheslined. That's simply unacceptable for a main eventer.Prescence, look, mic skills are all important, but they should never trump the physical work. Much like Snipes as Blade or Bale as Batman, audiences wouldn't have bought into the illusion had those guys not taken the time to actually learn their respective martial arts. The champion should never be deficient in any area. He should be able to carry the feud on the mic and carry any opponent to a good match. The truth about Warrior is that he was another Vince McMahon construct like Hogan, Diesel, Batista, JBL, Cena. Vince has always been able to take guys who have a little talent in one area and hide their flaws. Warrior was one of Vince's greatest illusions. Why do you keep saying that? What are the rules of a main eventer and what makes them different then any one else? Also, Im pretty sure Ive seen plenty of hogan matches where all you saw were punches & kicks until his boot/legdrop finish. Guess he shouldn't of been main eventing either, huh? . For the same reason it's more important for a movie/play's central protagonist to give a great performance than a cameo player. That's self-evident. I liked the Missing Link and George Steele, but only as lower card guys. They didn't belong in the main event and neither did the Nutbag Formerly Known as Hellwig. And, yes, Hogan was another Vinny Mac construct. The sad thing, is, much like John Cena, Hogan actually showed flashes of ability had Vinny Mac ever taken it upon himself to demand that Hulk improve. Instead, Hogan got lazier and worse in the ring than better. |
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Post by hulkhogancollector on Mar 18, 2013 0:38:25 GMT -5
While Warrior did improve ( although he didn't start until his WWF title reign) it was a case of too little, too late. If you care to look, there is a cage match just prior to WM 7 against Randy Savage where Warrior did one real move the entire match, a flying shoulder block. The rest of the time, he punched, kicked, clotheslined. That's simply unacceptable for a main eventer.
Yes unacceptable unless your Bruno Sammartino who was champ for like 12 years basically punching and kicking throughout all his matches. I guess Bruno was an unacceptable main eventer too!
And Vince didn't create Hulk Hogan. Vince basically saw what Hogan was doing in the AWA and brought it over to WWF and helped him refine his act.
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