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Post by The-Rock on Mar 20, 2013 0:25:23 GMT -5
It's remembered more fondly than it actually was...I remember ordering it. Here are the big issues with it.
1) Lesnar/Angle was somewhat of a botch fest that didn't really deserve to be the last match... considering it featured the two least over main event superstars on the card. Brock Lesnar was not really as over or the superstar that WWE wanted him to be at that point. He had barely been in the company a year. Kurt Angle was fine, but wasn't really a big enough star to really put Brock over like beating The Rock did at Summerlsam
2) Hogan/Vince was so long, drawn out, and anticlimactic. It was a lot like Wm 26 Bret Hart street fight.
3) The Rock vs. Austin had been done to death and was two guys who had not been in the company most of the past year. It was a good match, but it was like watching WWE try and hold onto it's last bit of fading glory from it's best years.
4) Booker T vs. HHH was alright. I just was never really into Booker T as the main face of Raw or as a potential face champion. WWE should have saved Steiner vs. HHH for WM, especially if HHH was going to go over. Booker T just wasn't the right guy to be facing Raw's champion and biggest heel. Kevin Nash also returned like a week or 2 later and could have easily been in Booker T's spot. Booker T vs. Flair would have made a lot more sense to be honest.
5) Y2J/Jericho was by far the best match, had incredible build, and was just an all around classic.
6) The raw tag team division was left off the card, despite having an actual good storyline.
7) The SD! tag team match was forgettable and could have easily been a TLC match with all that talent.
8) Undertaker's match was a total waste.
9) Half of the card wasn't utilized, with some of the most over guys like Steiner, Kane, RVD not getting matches...but A-train, the miller light girls, etc. getting time. Also, Kevin Nash and Goldberg were waiting in the wings and should have been used.
10) Goldberg debuted the next night, but really should have been brought in earlier to face either The Rock, HHH, or Austin. Heck, Goldberg debuting at Mania would have been even more awesome. Him spearing The Rock after beating Austin would have been an incredible moment, especially if that closed the show.
WM 19 was a lot like the current state of the WWE, a lot of the biggest draws were part timers/retiring...and so WWE was in that weird flux of focusing on the guys that weren't really representative of the current product. Lesnar, Mysterio, Haas/Benjamin, Benoit, Eddie, Matt Hardy, and a few others were the guys WWE was trying to bring to the next level but it just wasn't possible and seemed unimportant with Hogan, HBK, Undertaker, The Rock, Austin, Flair, and others on the card. The biggest issue is that when Lesnar left a year later it was like WWE had nothing to show for it. Part of why WM 21 is remembered as a great mania is because it is the definitive beginning of Cena and Batista's careers as main eventers and the early roots of this era of wrestling, also it had the 1st money in the bank match, and was the 1st time that WWE actually paid attention to Undertaker's streak.
The mid 00s did a good job of showcasing the current product with Cena, Orton, Batista, Kennedy, Umaga, Lashley, JBL, Mysterio, and the like. But in late 00's WM was more about giving retiring legends their proper send off, more so than about building the next big star. Then in the past few years it has been more about highlighting returning former stars like The Rock, Bret Hart, Undertaker, HHH, Lesnar, etc...than about showcasing the current product.
It's just really rare for WWE to be in a position like WM 14-18 and WM 21-24, where the guys that needed the pushes and that everyone wanted to see were already big time talents.
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Post by ztj_wwf on Mar 20, 2013 1:30:32 GMT -5
The last great Mania? 21 and 24 were great too!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 8:09:51 GMT -5
It's remembered more fondly than it actually was...I remember ordering it. Here are the big issues with it. 1) Lesnar/Angle was somewhat of a botch fest that didn't really deserve to be the last match... considering it featured the two least over main event superstars on the card. Brock Lesnar was not really as over or the superstar that WWE wanted him to be at that point. He had barely been in the company a year. Kurt Angle was fine, but wasn't really a big enough star to really put Brock over like beating The Rock did at Summerlsam 2) Hogan/Vince was so long, drawn out, and anticlimactic. It was a lot like Wm 26 Bret Hart street fight. 3) The Rock vs. Austin had been done to death and was two guys who had not been in the company most of the past year. It was a good match, but it was like watching WWE try and hold onto it's last bit of fading glory from it's best years. 4) Booker T vs. HHH was alright. I just was never really into Booker T as the main face of Raw or as a potential face champion. WWE should have saved Steiner vs. HHH for WM, especially if HHH was going to go over. Booker T just wasn't the right guy to be facing Raw's champion and biggest heel. Kevin Nash also returned like a week or 2 later and could have easily been in Booker T's spot. Booker T vs. Flair would have made a lot more sense to be honest. 5) Y2J/Jericho was by far the best match, had incredible build, and was just an all around classic. 6) The raw tag team division was left off the card, despite having an actual good storyline. 7) The SD! tag team match was forgettable and could have easily been a TLC match with all that talent. 8) Undertaker's match was a total waste. 9) Half of the card wasn't utilized, with some of the most over guys like Steiner, Kane, RVD not getting matches...but A-train, the miller light girls, etc. getting time. Also, Kevin Nash and Goldberg were waiting in the wings and should have been used. 10) Goldberg debuted the next night, but really should have been brought in earlier to face either The Rock, HHH, or Austin. Heck, Goldberg debuting at Mania would have been even more awesome. Him spearing The Rock after beating Austin would have been an incredible moment, especially if that closed the show. WM 19 was a lot like the current state of the WWE, a lot of the biggest draws were part timers/retiring...and so WWE was in that weird flux of focusing on the guys that weren't really representative of the current product. Lesnar, Mysterio, Haas/Benjamin, Benoit, Eddie, Matt Hardy, and a few others were the guys WWE was trying to bring to the next level but it just wasn't possible and seemed unimportant with Hogan, HBK, Undertaker, The Rock, Austin, Flair, and others on the card. The biggest issue is that when Lesnar left a year later it was like WWE had nothing to show for it. Part of why WM 21 is remembered as a great mania is because it is the definitive beginning of Cena and Batista's careers as main eventers and the early roots of this era of wrestling, also it had the 1st money in the bank match, and was the 1st time that WWE actually paid attention to Undertaker's streak. The mid 00s did a good job of showcasing the current product with Cena, Orton, Batista, Kennedy, Umaga, Lashley, JBL, Mysterio, and the like. But in late 00's WM was more about giving retiring legends their proper send off, more so than about building the next big star. Then in the past few years it has been more about highlighting returning former stars like The Rock, Bret Hart, Undertaker, HHH, Lesnar, etc...than about showcasing the current product. It's just really rare for WWE to be in a position like WM 14-18 and WM 21-24, where the guys that needed the pushes and that everyone wanted to see were already big time talents. Can't agree with the first part. Angle had a better year than anyone in 2002, not to mention having match of the year with Benoit in 2003 at the Royal Rumble. And botch fest with Lesnar? Lol there was A botch. Not more than one. Unless you count Angle yelling "drop me" during that top rope bit. Didn't even bother reading the rest. |
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PVA
Main Eventer
Too hot to handle and too cold to hold
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Post by PVA on Mar 20, 2013 8:41:29 GMT -5
XIX was good. I think XX was probably the last great mania. 21 was great if the hbk/angle match was the end of the show. The problem with the past 8 manias is while each card had some good to great matches they all had big disappointments. Also since x7 expectations are higher; one great match isn't good enough for wrestlemania.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Mar 20, 2013 10:17:13 GMT -5
XIX is my favourite ever Mania. 28 is the only one since that could even challenge it, and it would still lose that challenge because of the undercard. (That's not to say that there haven't been good Mainias - 21 24 etc)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 12:50:12 GMT -5
Eh, in 2023 people will look back and be nostalgic for the "awesome card" that was WM 29. It just takes time for these things to gain value.
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Jamal
Main Eventer
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Post by Jamal on Mar 20, 2013 13:11:28 GMT -5
Eh, in 2023 people will look back and be nostalgic for the "awesome card" that was WM 29. It just takes time for these things to gain value. I wasn't around back then, but did people honestly bitch about that mania? If so, you truly can never make the iwc happy. |
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Post by Noza on Mar 20, 2013 17:59:15 GMT -5
WrestleMania 19 is my second favourite WrestleMania ever, only behind 17. All the top matches delivered, good builds and is just always fun to look back on. When the WWE was in a much better place than it is today.
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Post by Mike Giggs' Munchies on Mar 20, 2013 18:06:39 GMT -5
I don't think anyone bitched much about it; I wasn't on WF, but I'm pretty sure the instantaneous reaction was overwhelmingly positive, as it should've been.
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Post by wyleecyotee on Mar 20, 2013 18:25:03 GMT -5
17 was the best, hands down just as close to perfect a wrestling event there can be. From the opening video (goosebumps everytime) to JR calling the Austin/McMahon alliance it was just brilliant.
XIX was as close to that as it gets, those two are the pinnacle or WrestleMania and I think everyone from the wrestlers all the way to the people that drive the productions trucks need to watch those every year and create a WrestleMania like those two.
Surprised WWE hasnt done a baseball field WrestleMania since, loved the unique look of the stadium.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 18:42:28 GMT -5
That was a great WrestleMania, definitely.
Awesome too to see Australia's 60 Minutes do a piece on WWE, and show backstage stuff about how they put everything together. They interviewed Vince and Nathan Jones too.
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johnnyaustin21
Main Eventer
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Post by johnnyaustin21 on Mar 20, 2013 21:17:06 GMT -5
It's remembered more fondly than it actually was...I remember ordering it. Here are the big issues with it. 1) Lesnar/Angle was somewhat of a botch fest that didn't really deserve to be the last match... considering it featured the two least over main event superstars on the card. Brock Lesnar was not really as over or the superstar that WWE wanted him to be at that point. He had barely been in the company a year. Kurt Angle was fine, but wasn't really a big enough star to really put Brock over like beating The Rock did at Summerlsam 2) Hogan/Vince was so long, drawn out, and anticlimactic. It was a lot like Wm 26 Bret Hart street fight. 3) The Rock vs. Austin had been done to death and was two guys who had not been in the company most of the past year. It was a good match, but it was like watching WWE try and hold onto it's last bit of fading glory from it's best years. 4) Booker T vs. HHH was alright. I just was never really into Booker T as the main face of Raw or as a potential face champion. WWE should have saved Steiner vs. HHH for WM, especially if HHH was going to go over. Booker T just wasn't the right guy to be facing Raw's champion and biggest heel. Kevin Nash also returned like a week or 2 later and could have easily been in Booker T's spot. Booker T vs. Flair would have made a lot more sense to be honest. 5) Y2J/Jericho was by far the best match, had incredible build, and was just an all around classic. 6) The raw tag team division was left off the card, despite having an actual good storyline. 7) The SD! tag team match was forgettable and could have easily been a TLC match with all that talent. 8) Undertaker's match was a total waste. 9) Half of the card wasn't utilized, with some of the most over guys like Steiner, Kane, RVD not getting matches...but A-train, the miller light girls, etc. getting time. Also, Kevin Nash and Goldberg were waiting in the wings and should have been used. 10) Goldberg debuted the next night, but really should have been brought in earlier to face either The Rock, HHH, or Austin. Heck, Goldberg debuting at Mania would have been even more awesome. Him spearing The Rock after beating Austin would have been an incredible moment, especially if that closed the show. WM 19 was a lot like the current state of the WWE, a lot of the biggest draws were part timers/retiring...and so WWE was in that weird flux of focusing on the guys that weren't really representative of the current product. Lesnar, Mysterio, Haas/Benjamin, Benoit, Eddie, Matt Hardy, and a few others were the guys WWE was trying to bring to the next level but it just wasn't possible and seemed unimportant with Hogan, HBK, Undertaker, The Rock, Austin, Flair, and others on the card. The biggest issue is that when Lesnar left a year later it was like WWE had nothing to show for it. Part of why WM 21 is remembered as a great mania is because it is the definitive beginning of Cena and Batista's careers as main eventers and the early roots of this era of wrestling, also it had the 1st money in the bank match, and was the 1st time that WWE actually paid attention to Undertaker's streak. The mid 00s did a good job of showcasing the current product with Cena, Orton, Batista, Kennedy, Umaga, Lashley, JBL, Mysterio, and the like. But in late 00's WM was more about giving retiring legends their proper send off, more so than about building the next big star. Then in the past few years it has been more about highlighting returning former stars like The Rock, Bret Hart, Undertaker, HHH, Lesnar, etc...than about showcasing the current product. It's just really rare for WWE to be in a position like WM 14-18 and WM 21-24, where the guys that needed the pushes and that everyone wanted to see were already big time talents. bty just to point out your #1 problem Angle/Brock for the WWE Title wasn't suppose to close out the show as the main event Stone Cold .Vs The Rock was.This has been reported on but Austin/Rock was going on last and was book to all the way up until that Sunday morning but with Austin heath scar the night earlier and his fear of not living up to the hype and his heath the moved it from the main event spot and put Angle/Brock on last. As far as the show goes to me its stands side by side with WM X7 as the greats Wrestlemania and pro wrestling show of all time.Might actual say its the best sense it had last filler crap and over all more solid matches then WM X7. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 11:31:59 GMT -5
Eh, in 2023 people will look back and be nostalgic for the "awesome card" that was WM 29. It just takes time for these things to gain value. I wasn't around back then, but did people honestly bitch about that mania? If so, you truly can never make the iwc happy. Yeah, because 2003 was still post-Attitude Era, WCW and ECW were dead, and the WWE didn't have the "F" feel of 1997-2002. They were complaining that Evolution was bland and overexposed (which I do agree with) and that the product was diminishing. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 22, 2013 18:47:39 GMT -5
2nd best WM ever IMO. Stacked card and almost every match delivered. Only complaint is that HHH went over Booker, which killed his main event status until about 2006. Besides that and the miller light cat fight girls, a perfect card.
Angle/Lesnar was the most hyped match after Austin/Rock. People were dying to see that match. Not sure why you say they were the least over main eventers considering the only guys more over than them were Austin and Rock. As for the match, considering Angle had a broken neck, the match was great. Also not sure why you called it a botchfest unless you consider making one big botch a botchfest. The match was great and did what it was suppose to do and get Lesnar over as a huge face. You should also go back and watch some of Angle's stuff from 02/03. The guy was getting huge pops and was seen by fans as a legit top guys w/ Austin, Rock, Taker, HHH, etc...
After HHH had gone through RVD, Kane, HBK, and Steiner since being handed the world title, Booker was the one guy left at the time that HHH hadn't squashed and who fans saw as a potential top face. While HHH was ruining the credibility of the other guys mentioned (except for HBK), Booker spent all of 2002 building himself back up after the WWE botched his character during the Invasion angle. By January 2003, Booker was the most over face on Raw, even more than Steiner. It made sense to put Booker w/ HHH at the time. What didn't make sense was having him job to Hunter, especially after the feud was turned into a tasteless racist angle.
People knew this wasn't going to be a technical masterpeice, but to compare it to the god aweful Hart/McMahon match is simply wrong. Hogan and McMahon managed to put on a better match than expected, and it was fun to see them simply slug it out and beat the hell out of eachother.
Agreed about Kane and RVD. They were pushed to Heat to make room for the Miller Light Catfight girls, which was a joke. As for Steiner, he had no business being anywhere near the WM card after the botch fests he put on w/ HHH (to be fair those matches failing were just as much HHH's fault as it was Scotts). Nash wasn't medically cleared in time to build a feud w/ HHH going into WM. Goldberg was literally signed days before the PPV, so it was impossible to put him in a match w/ only a few days remaining. The WWE tried signing throughout 2002, but couldn't get a deal done in time to build for a WM match.
Lesnar was the young star in his mid-20s that was pushed as the next big star. Angle and HHH, the champs at the time, were in their mid-30s and still going full time. Taker, Booker T, Jericho, Benoit, and Guerrero were in their later 30s, but still full time as well. Y2J, RVD, Kane, and Big Show were still in their early 30s as well. The only main eventers leaving were Rock and Austin, and Austin was only in his late 30s while Rocky was 30.
These were not part timers, and none of them were retiring anytime soon except Rock and Austin, whos WM19 match was built as a send off for both of em (you could also say the Goldberg signing also offset the loss of them a bit). The rest of the guys listed were no where near retiring, and the roster was 100x stronger than it is today.
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China Claus
Main Eventer
I can feeel your sensitivity
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Post by China Claus on Mar 22, 2013 18:54:39 GMT -5
I loved 19, I just hated Limp Bizkit's inclusion. Brought the Show down, as much as I hate to say it.
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Post by King Silva on Mar 22, 2013 18:59:54 GMT -5
This is one of my favorite WMs [top 3 for sure].
I just enjoyed almost all the matches.
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Arthur Speaks
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Post by Arthur Speaks on Mar 23, 2013 15:59:22 GMT -5
This was the peak for me as a wrestling fan. Just watching that video and the opening of the show has completely soured me on this years show and build up. This year has been HORRIBLE or maybe i'm just not into it anymore like i was during the 17/18/19 time period. I saw it. That was amazing. WrestleMania isn't just a pay-per-view. It's a celebration of life. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2013 16:27:32 GMT -5
Umm... Who's Michael? Hogan musta kicked his ass into non-existence.  Totally agreed that WrestleMania 19 is one of the most underrated WrestleManias ever. I wanted Booker T to win the belt off Triple H so bad, and HBK Vs Jericho instantly became one of my fav matches. |
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Post by 0,Y on Mar 23, 2013 17:13:48 GMT -5
WM XIX was pure greatness!
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 24, 2013 12:02:28 GMT -5
To me it seemed like the WWE fixed alot of what was wrong w/ WM18 w/ WM19. The WWE had just gotta a huge increase to the roster because of the purchase of WCW, and it seemed like they had no clue what to do w/ all the talent for WM18, especially after the failed Invasion angle and the brining in of the nWo and Ric Flair. By WM19, they seemed to have it worked out much better, especially w/ the brand split. Made the stories flow better and it seemed like the WWE knew exactly where all their stars were suppose to be, which resulted in a great WM19.
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