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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 15:49:53 GMT -5
The hardest part of booking this would be the match itself. The lead up I think would have been pretty easy. Following Mania, Bret has a few month feud with Lex Luger (they planted the seeds for this at the Mania brunch when Luger knocked Bret out) while Hogan builds up to KOTR with Yoko. KOTR: Hogan beats Yokozuna to retain the title, Bret wins KOTR (maybe by beating Luger in the Finals), and possibly a Hogan/Bret staredown to end the show. SummerSlam: Bret goes over Hogan (pick your poison here- either submission, quick pin, Hogan passes out in Sharpshooter, interference from Yoko/Luger causing Hogan to lose, etc). Bret would not have been turned heel here either. I think they could have kept Luger/Bret seperate from the KOTR and have Hennig win as originally planned.
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Post by mikey1974 on Apr 13, 2013 17:11:55 GMT -5
yeah, I think KOTR should've continued as it went. then maybe the Raw the night after SummerSlam have Bret come out and at some point get forearmed again by Luger. the announcers could play up this is the 2nd time Luger has knocked Bret out, and the feud could build from there.
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 13, 2013 17:24:25 GMT -5
Bret Hart, like Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and many others are nothing more then marks for themselves. Anyone that picks up a wrestlers book or watches a shoot and believes everything they hear/read is 100% naive. Lets look at a wide range of things. Lets deal with facts instead of hearsay. From 1987 to 1997, has there ever been any factual proof that Hogan was suppose to lay down for someone and refused??? Then answer, No. Im not counting some of these fools like Honky Tonk Man or Matt Borne that thinks Doink was suppose to main event Wrestlemania. Im talking Hogan, McMahon, writers, Pat Patterson etc? None. As fans we all "assume" that Hogan was suppose to drop the title to DiBiase or Savage but there never has been any actual proof of it. All we've heard was the DiBiase was originally suppose to win, Hogan (apparently) pushed for Savage, Savage got the Title and DiBiase got the Million Dollar Belt. Moving along, looking at that decade, who is the ONLY person we factually know refused to drop a belt and do a job to another wrestler? Here's a hint.....Bret Hart. So we're left to believe that the one guy we can "trust" is the one guy that has refused to do what he's constantly bitched and whined about. Even contradicting himself as saying "I dont want to lose the belt tonight in Canada (Survivor Series) but Ill give it up the next night on Raw.....which was also in freaking Canada. Wrestlers, including Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan etc, are nothing but story tellers and years after they've retired I fully believe they're still making crap up to make themselves look better then they were. You're painting a very one sided picture here and are completely ignoring the rest of the facts. The vast majority of Bret's peers have only good things to say about him, and I've never heard that he's dishonest from anyone. He's never covered up that he didn't want to put Shawn over either. He always tells it how it is. Hell, Shawn Michaels even thanked him for putting up with him during his retirement speech. In fact, outside of a few people siding with Vince over Montreal. The only time I've heard anyone trashing Bret was Flair trying to make out that he didn't draw. So you can pretty much chalk that one up to jealousy. Hogan on the other hand is frequently and consistently called a liar by a huge percentage of his peers. In fact I'm not sure that I've ever really heard a good word said about him as a person. You're also looking at things from a "Fans point of view" and not a business point of view...which is what wrestling is. You've always has the pink & black blinders on when it comes to Hart family topics. Hart's logic was he was suppose to go over a guy (Roberts) at Survivor Series who left the company like 8 months before. Then he was suppose to go over the Warrior at the Rumble, even though Razor Ramon had been getting pushed/rub from Warrior/Savage and Flair for 4 months. Then he was going to go over Savage at Maina, which would have completely devalued Yokozuna as a monster heel and completely killed the character if Savage eliminates him from the Rumble. So that leads to Hart vs Hogan, which in the way Bret forms this cockamamy series of events, would have been originally brainstormed/planned when Hogan wasnt even in the freaking company. So in Bret's world, we're suppose to believe he was going to beat Piper for the IC Title and then lose it to Bulldog (who's claim to singles fame was breaking out of Warlords full nelson). Then he was going to beat Ric Flair (who by now was on his way out of the company) and then beat Jake Roberts (who was gone for 8 months) and then beat Ultimate Warrior (even though Razor Ramon had been built as a top heel at the time) and then beat Savage (and completely squashing Yokozuna's character) and then on to beat Hogan, who had left the company all the way back when Hart was wrestling Piper and had yet to even freaking main event a PPV..... Failed logic has failed. Looking back at in in 2013, its something that "seems" like a great idea but there's no way, unless someone like McMahon/Patterson say so, that in April 1992 that they had any sort of plans for Hart to beat Piper, Roberts, Warrior, Savage & Hogan...especially when half of them werent even in the freaking company.
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 13, 2013 17:33:44 GMT -5
The old saying goes, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is"
Ric Flair could easily come out and say "Well the original plan was for me to beat Piper at Survivor Series, then win the Rumble, beat Hogan at Mania, beat Warrior at SummerSlam, beat Savage at Survivor Series and then drop the title to Mr. Perfect @ 1993 Royal Rumble".......unless there's someone else that will back the claims, its all hearsay.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 17:37:06 GMT -5
You seem to forget that things back in the 80s and 90s were planned out sometimes a year in advance.
Also Yokozuna didn't debut until late 92, so it was obvious that Vince jumped at the chance to use Yoko over Randy as he didn't have many main event heel candidates at the time.
Vince has always been about "out with the old, in with the new", he's always wanted his older talent putting over newer talent. Bret was the new talent, Roberts/Piper/Hogan/Flair were the old. Piper and Hogan had already retired and returned by the time Bret was rising in 92, Flair was already nearly 50 and Roberts was wanting to take Patterson's old job backstage. In fact it was a dispute over that Job that made him leave.
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Post by mikey1974 on Apr 13, 2013 18:00:13 GMT -5
well,if you read Bret's book,it all makes sense,actually.
he never,ever mention facing Roberts at all after winning the World title. not even once.
when he won the title,Warrior was still in the company,so it's possible Vince did plan to have him face Bret at the Rumble 1993.
Yoko didn't debut until around Survivor Series 1992, and at that point had yet to prove himself. so it is feasable that Savage could've been pencilled in to win the Rumble til Vince saw Yoko's potential as his new monster heel.
they didn't start the planning for Bret-Hogan til late April or early May. so there were no plans for Hitman-Hogan going back in 1992,at all.
another thing to mention - Vince is a HUGE bullcrapter! so it's entirely plausible he laid this whole "beating all the legends" scenerio out to Bret early on in his 1st reign,even if he didn't think or know if it would actually be able to happen. he also told Bret he planned on at least a year long reign for him,and we saw how all that went down!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 18:03:21 GMT -5
exactly.Vinnie has been known to tell the talent an ol "fable" now and again.......
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 13, 2013 18:04:40 GMT -5
You seem to forget that things back in the 80s and 90s were planned out sometimes a year in advance.Also Yokozuna didn't debut until late 92, so it was obvious that Vince jumped at the chance to use Yoko over Randy as he didn't have many main event heel candidates at the time. Vince has always been about "out with the old, in with the new", he's always wanted his older talent putting over newer talent. Bret was the new talent, Roberts/Piper/Hogan/Flair were the old. Piper and Hogan had already retired and returned by the time Bret was rising in 92, Flair was already nearly 50 and Roberts was wanting to take Patterson's old job backstage. In fact it was a dispute over that Job that made him leave. That is exactly my point. Lets say they started drawing up 1992s plans in around Survivor Series 1991. Bret's trying to say that McMahon/Patterson....whomever is writing things, is planning on a guy who is only 3 months into his first singles title reign and has spent less then a year as a singles wrestler to go over every major star the company had from the 80s?!? Not to mention he had just acquired a few months prior one of the biggest names in Ric Flair (who was only 42 btw) and had the biggest storyline in wrestling history lined up with the Flair-Hogan angle. Sorry, Im just not buying it. Bret was easily my favorite WWF wrestler from 1993 until he left but he always paints a very "Hart friendly" image when discussing what he "could have/should have" done.
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Post by mikey1974 on Apr 13, 2013 18:16:24 GMT -5
but I never saw anything where Bret said they had all these feud's planned out for him a year or more in advance. hell, he wasn't even planned to be the Champ until fall of 1992, when the infamous " 6 Names List" came out. he didn't even know Hogan was getting the Belt til the night before WM IX. he was told all along he was going over Yoko.
I'm really just going by his book here,and what he himself wrote,not what was heard by others.
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Post by Nivro™ on Apr 13, 2013 18:21:10 GMT -5
but I never saw anything where Bret said they had all these feud's planned out for him a year or more in advance. hell, he wasn't even planned to be the Champ until fall of 1992, when the infamous " 6 Names List" came out. he didn't even know Hogan was getting the Belt til the night before WM IX. he was told all along he was going over Yoko. That's fine though. If Bret has never said any of this then its all a moot point. Ive just heard on here many times about how he was suppose to have the stars of the 80s job out to him and I just never bought it.
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Post by mikey1974 on Apr 13, 2013 19:30:56 GMT -5
the only ones he mentions in the book are Warrior, and he never specifically says when he would be facing him. just that once Warrior was fired for the HGH shipments he was getting (along with Davey Boy) his dreams of twisting Warrior into the sharpshooter and hearing him cry out in pain vanished (he didn't particularly care for Hellwig). he makes no mention of Randy winning the Rumble,and says once he saw Yoko win it,then he finally knew who he'd be defending against at Mania IX. and that Vince told him shortly after WM IX that he would be getting the Belt back from Hogan,and was summoned to a secret photoshoot where the 2 of them posed with the Belt. but he hadn't told Hogan yet he planned to have him put Bret over. shortly after that the whole controversy with that started.
so the only one Bret specifically talked about was Hogan and the possibility of Warrior. the rest are just hearsay or speculation or rumors that went around. I'm not saying they aren't CORRECT rumors,cause as I stated in a previous post it would've been possible to have planned Warrior for the Rumble (til he got fired) and Randy for Mania ( as he was still over and still with the WWF).but until they can be confirmed by someone in the know,they are just rumors.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2013 19:48:51 GMT -5
Bruce Prichard and others said that Savage was pencilled in to win RR93 and go to Mania.Jim Duggan or Ted Dibiase mention it too because one of them said Randy took it really badly when he was told his Rumble win wasn't to be.
it didnt sound like a tantrum or anything....sounded like he was just really disheartened.Bobby Heenan also said in his shoot that Savage didn't want to be on commenatary at all @ WM9 and was distracted all night.
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Post by hulkhogancollector on Apr 14, 2013 23:59:12 GMT -5
I personally think it made more sense for Hogan to lose to Yoko than Bret. Yoko was a monster heel and with the win Yoko could now fued with Hart, Luger, Undertaker. It just made better business sense. Why Hart still continues to be bitter about it, I don't know he became champ again in 1994 at WM.
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Post by OmegaGaijin on Apr 17, 2013 5:14:58 GMT -5
It was defiantly suppose to happen, i have heard that from both men face to face. Hogan was very diplomatic and just said briefly that we were suppose to face off but it didn't happen for whatever reason, while Bret came across really hurt from it all. He did seem to think it would all have a happy ending when it got to WCW & started to get on well again with him, but that never worked out ethier.
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Post by LeighD on Apr 17, 2013 7:06:58 GMT -5
Bret Hart, like Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and many others are nothing more then marks for themselves. Anyone that picks up a wrestlers book or watches a shoot and believes everything they hear/read is 100% naive. Lets look at a wide range of things. Lets deal with facts instead of hearsay. From 1987 to 1997, has there ever been any factual proof that Hogan was suppose to lay down for someone and refused??? Then answer, No. Im not counting some of these fools like Honky Tonk Man or Matt Borne that thinks Doink was suppose to main event Wrestlemania. Im talking Hogan, McMahon, writers, Pat Patterson etc? None. As fans we all "assume" that Hogan was suppose to drop the title to DiBiase or Savage but there never has been any actual proof of it. All we've heard was the DiBiase was originally suppose to win, Hogan (apparently) pushed for Savage, Savage got the Title and DiBiase got the Million Dollar Belt. Moving along, looking at that decade, who is the ONLY person we factually know refused to drop a belt and do a job to another wrestler? Here's a hint.....Bret Hart. So we're left to believe that the one guy we can "trust" is the one guy that has refused to do what he's constantly bitched and whined about. Even contradicting himself as saying "I dont want to lose the belt tonight in Canada (Survivor Series) but Ill give it up the next night on Raw.....which was also in freaking Canada. Wrestlers, including Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan etc, are nothing but story tellers and years after they've retired I fully believe they're still making crap up to make themselves look better then they were. I would like to point out the ONLY reason Bret refused to drop the title and do the job to HBK at Survivor Series was because HBK fla out said he wouldn't do the same for Bret. Bret felt it wasn't the best way to handle things. Back on topic. 1993 was definitely an odd year and a turning point for the company. Obviously. Yokozuna got the best out of what actually did unfold. But had Hogan actually stayed and face Bret as SummerSlam this is what I see happening: - Bret wins KOTR and Hogan retains against Yokozuna at same event. - Bret vs. Hogan is signed for SummerSlam'93 for the WWF title with one of three things happening: 1) Bret defeats Hogan via pinfall but probably caused by interference by someone (maybe Luger to start a Hogan vs. Luger feud). I just don't see Hogan submitting to the sharpshooter 2) Hogan politics and bitches and the match is turned into a non-title match which he jobs to Bret. 3) Hogan defeats Bret. In this scenario, Bret's push is killed, Yoko's would never really have gotten started (unless WWF tries to re-build Yoko as a beast), and Luger is still stuck as a mid-carder. But I do think Vince was pushing Bret as the face of the company, Had he not been so high on Bret, I think Hogan would have been able to convince Vince to keep the belt on himself. Hogan essentially left because he didn't want to job to Bret at McMahon's orders. Do I think Vince would have pushed Bret for wins over Flair, Warrior, Savage, and Hogan? Absolutely. Vince knew his stars of the late-80's and early-90's had seen there better days: - Flair was more or less on his way out to WCW - Warrior is a big question mark here. I just don't see him fitting it well in 1993. He probably would have face Bret at the Rumble and lost via interference by someone which would have set-up their match at WrestleMania. But then what? - Savage had seen reduced in-ring time and was more a commentator at this point. But it would have been one hell of a match at WrestleMania IX - Hogan. Vince I do believe felt Hoganas WWF champion was bringing back the glory days. But that isn't what happened and which is why I feel Vince once again felt Bret was the man to lead the company. Bret was a smaller guy and because the steroid trial was going on, Bret as the face of the company was the smartest way to go about handling the flagbearer.
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