Revy
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Post by Revy on Jul 26, 2013 10:38:47 GMT -5
Ok so it's a new era of wrestling and I realize many things change with time. However, has the art of working you way up the ladder completely been thrown out? For instance, guys like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Edge, Jericho, even Austin, had to establish themselves, either got into some good feuds before winning the tag titles or the IC and it wasn't till later, after they had fully developed their character, that they were able to hold the WWF/E title.
I realize Punk and Bryan had their share of time in the mid card with the minor titles, but guys like Ryback, Lesnar, Sheamus, Del Rio, and even khali were pushed way too fast in my opinion. I guess WWE wanted to show these guys were a huge threat, but to me, most of the time it backfires.
What are your thoughts on the matter, should guys be given a ticket to the big dance quickly in some cases, or should they slow burn their rise to the top?
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hbkfan
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Post by hbkfan on Jul 26, 2013 12:34:39 GMT -5
In my opinion Lesnar kind of proofed that he was a big deal, a force to be recon, just take a look at his marches, the guy is a total package. The other guys, in some degree could make it work, but not at Lesnar level.
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Post by mikey1974 on Jul 26, 2013 12:40:15 GMT -5
when a special guy like Lesnar comes along,it works,and works well.
however,most of the time it's crap. look at Jack Swagger for instance.the days of guys working their way up the card,like Bret,Savage,Warrior,Jericho,Guerrero,RVD,HBK, Triple H,Austin,Rock, even Goldberg,are sadly long gone. the current mindset is now to give a guy a World title in the belief it will get him over,rather than the old way of giving a World title to a guy who already got himself over,and would add prestige to the Title.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 13:18:48 GMT -5
In my opinion Lesnar kind of proofed that he was a big deal, a force to be recon, just take a look at his marches, the guy is a total package. The other guys, in some degree could make it work, but not at Lesnar level. Are you drunk? |
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 26, 2013 14:23:01 GMT -5
Yes and no.
W/ Lesnar they gave him the best push ever and w/in 6 months became a legit WWE Champ. He was a heel who not only dominated his opponents, but got CLEAN wins over them. That's something that we don't see today.
W/ guys like Sheamus and Del Rio I agree that they received pushes was too fast. The WWE realizes that not only have ruined the credibility of their two world titles over the past few years but also have a lack of legitimate top stars so their solution is to quickly push these guys by giving them meaningless title reigns w/ the hope that someone becomes a top star. This doesn't work most of the time.
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Revy
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Post by Revy on Jul 26, 2013 14:32:05 GMT -5
I will say that Lesnar is the one that comes to mind as far as succeeding in getting over the quickest. The thing about it though, people accepted the character he was unlike some of the others. Plus, he had the backing from people in the back. I think they could have made Ryback something similar, but horrible booking killed him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 14:35:11 GMT -5
WWE makes the mistake of pushing guys to get them over instead of getting them over and then pushing them.
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Jul 26, 2013 14:35:47 GMT -5
I agree.
Save for Lesnar, who was a special talent in 2002, the slow build from early mid card to World Champion over some years is a proven formula.
It cheapens the value of World titles when guys are 2/3 times former World Champs but have only been about for 2 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 14:58:39 GMT -5
WWE is backed up against a wall right now for this. They don't have the time to build stars like they once did in the 80s (ex. Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Steve Austin) and now they want a guy to be the WWE Champion right off the bat so they can say "we have a star!"
Sadly, the guys who were mid card in 2003 - 2006 should be main event level now. But the WWE fires them because 'creative can't find anything for them' and they bring in new guys, and they are mid card level.
Shelton Benjamin, Rob Conway, Charlie Haas, and such should be the guys who are either WWE or World Champions, former champions, or at least in the main event or semi main event to get new stars elevated.
But it was like in 2004 the only two guys they pushed were Cena and Orton. So many got lost in the shuffle. And now, the WWE is paying for it.
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Post by Lewscher on Jul 26, 2013 16:14:41 GMT -5
i feel they have them in developmental territories to build them before putting them on tv, as they want only top stuff on tv now they're more of a buisness, they dont want to be seen on tv as developmental, therefore guys like ryback rely on pushes and dont actually get to grow on fans on tv.
just my opinion, so to answer, its a lost art in my view
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 17:26:34 GMT -5
WWE is backed up against a wall right now for this. They don't have the time to build stars like they once did in the 80s (ex. Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Steve Austin) and now they want a guy to be the WWE Champion right off the bat so they can say "we have a star!" Sadly, the guys who were mid card in 2003 - 2006 should be main event level now. But the WWE fires them because 'creative can't find anything for them' and they bring in new guys, and they are mid card level. Shelton Benjamin, Rob Conway, Charlie Haas, and such should be the guys who are either WWE or World Champions, former champions, or at least in the main event or semi main event to get new stars elevated. But it was like in 2004 the only two guys they pushed were Cena and Orton. So many got lost in the shuffle. And now, the WWE is paying for it. I mostly agree with you, but I really don't think Shelton would have ever been a credible World champion. He was talented but didn't have "it". |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 17:58:33 GMT -5
WWE is backed up against a wall right now for this. They don't have the time to build stars like they once did in the 80s (ex. Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Steve Austin) and now they want a guy to be the WWE Champion right off the bat so they can say "we have a star!" Sadly, the guys who were mid card in 2003 - 2006 should be main event level now. But the WWE fires them because 'creative can't find anything for them' and they bring in new guys, and they are mid card level. Shelton Benjamin, Rob Conway, Charlie Haas, and such should be the guys who are either WWE or World Champions, former champions, or at least in the main event or semi main event to get new stars elevated. But it was like in 2004 the only two guys they pushed were Cena and Orton. So many got lost in the shuffle. And now, the WWE is paying for it. I mostly agree with you, but I really don't think Shelton would have ever been a credible World champion. He was talented but didn't have "it". I agree too, I never thought he could be a World Champion, but I could see him being a guy to challenge the World Champion at lesser quality ppvs. I always said that the way of being a WWE wrestler goes as follows.... You get hired by the WWE. Get paired into a team with someone. Get a few upset non title wins over tag champions Finally beat the tag champions. Do nothing with the tag titles until a new make shift team comes along. Lose Titles. Lose matches and start to fight. Break up as a team. Have one match on Raw or Smackdown against your former partner. Then do nothing. Get released. See DH Smith, Rob Conway, Sylvan Grenier, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Trevor Murdoch, Carlito, Joey Matthews, Renee Dupree, Charlie Haas (twice!), Eugene, and others for more examples. I remember a time when a team split up, it usually meant a huge push for one (or sometimes both) but not anymore. So sad how things have gone with the WWE in the past 10 years or so. |
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 28, 2013 1:59:03 GMT -5
WWE is backed up against a wall right now for this. They don't have the time to build stars like they once did in the 80s (ex. Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Kevin Nash, Steve Austin) and now they want a guy to be the WWE Champion right off the bat so they can say "we have a star!" Sadly, the guys who were mid card in 2003 - 2006 should be main event level now. But the WWE fires them because 'creative can't find anything for them' and they bring in new guys, and they are mid card level. Shelton Benjamin, Rob Conway, Charlie Haas, and such should be the guys who are either WWE or World Champions, former champions, or at least in the main event or semi main event to get new stars elevated. But it was like in 2004 the only two guys they pushed were Cena and Orton. So many got lost in the shuffle. And now, the WWE is paying for it. Charlie Haas said it best back in 2005 that instead of firing writers for not doing their jobs and putting everyone in a stroyline, the WWE simply fires wrestlers because the supposed "creative" minds have nothing creative for them. Back during the Monday Night War writers would be let go for not utilizing every talent to their full potential. Now if the writers can't come up w/ something the wrestlers get fired instead. Simply putting the world title on unproven stars not only hurts the credibility of the world title, but it also does nothing to solidify the guy holding the title as a top talent. |
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Jul 28, 2013 11:12:15 GMT -5
Yeah WWE dropped the ball with a few mid card guys from 04 to now. Guys like Benjamin, Carlito, Morrison, Kennedy & MVP should all be World Champions right now. Hopefully guys like Rhodes, Kofi, Sandow, Shield and others can win the big one in the next few years.
Would you guys say Miz was the most recent guy to win the WWE Title without being thrown into the main event scene? He went to ECW and got better in the ring, started a great tag team with Morrison where they went onto winning both Tag Titles, He won the US Title and improved his mic work then won MITB and became Champion. For the WHT I'd say Ziggler, Christian & Mark Henry were 3 guys who worked their way up. It took Christian and Mark Henry like 15 years to finally win the big one. Dolph went through a ton of crap before capturing the big one.
If Bryan wins the WWE Title at SummerSlam then he'll be added to that list. Hes been up and down in the last 3 years but right now hes at his highest point hes ever been in his career so its the right time to put the Title on him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 15:52:22 GMT -5
I miss the art of guys going around the world learning different styles and maneuvers more than I do anything else.
Guys like Jericho, Guerrero, Malenko, etc. excelled at this and literally created a whole new mixed style of wrestling.
Jericho is basically the last guy left of a dying breed.
Everybody gets cranked out of the same developmental system and wrestles the same these days. It's boring.
If they do wrestle different, they are sent to developmental to learn the "WWE style" (whatever that is) and everything that makes their style unique is stripped away.
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Post by ASR (therockisback) on Jul 28, 2013 16:17:49 GMT -5
I miss the art of guys going around the world learning different styles and maneuvers more than I do anything else. Guys like Jericho, Guerrero, Malenko, etc. excelled at this and literally created a whole new mixed style of wrestling. Jericho is basically the last guy left of a dying breed. Everybody gets cranked out of the same developmental system and wrestles the same these days. It's boring. If they do wrestle different, they are sent to developmental to learn the "WWE style" (whatever that is) and everything that makes their style unique is stripped away. This is a good point. Hopefully we get more guys to do these kinda things. Benoit & Guerrero wrestled around the world, wrestled in ECW AND WCW before making it to the WWE. It also took them a little while to capture the big ones. What makes a WWE/WHT win so great is when someone goes through hell to win it and when someone gets closer every year and one day they finally win it. Look at Benoit: He wrestles around the world, wrestles in ECW & WCW, makes it to the WWF, comes close to winning in 2000, comes even closer to winning in 2001 but gets injured, gets back on track in 02 and nearly wins in 03 and in 04 he finally wins the WHT. Same can be said for Guerrero. Edge also came close every year but his injuries delayed his chances. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 19:35:19 GMT -5
An excellent point, which is why I'm a big fan of Jericho, who wrestled in Japan, Mexico, Germany and other places all over the world before getting noticed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 7:05:51 GMT -5
yes it is totally a lost art.
WWEs stop start push mentality has left them with very few credible top guys.I mean they were onto something with Ryback...and the booking of that match @ WM is amongst the worst ever.
he should have mowed through the useless Henry then onto Cena.but instead henry beats Ryback(who the crowd went crazy for when he attempted the 1st shellshock)and Ryback is turned into a whiner.....color me confused.so crying about your position is meant to get you over as a heel that can credibly dethrone John Cena?
its just one of many examples.look at MVP.....f*ck me they were onto something here....but they totally screwed him up by punishing him onscreen for something he did backstage.....and killed the red hot character stone dead.
then you get guys like Swagger and Khali having the world title.....guys I swear they only gave the belt so they could say they are ex World Champs.....or positiong R-Truth as a title contender to Cena after he had did nothing for 14 months.....
I could go on all day.
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Post by cordless2016 on Jul 29, 2013 13:33:17 GMT -5
yes it is totally a lost art. WWEs stop start push mentality has left them with very few credible top guys.I mean they were onto something with Ryback...and the booking of that match @ WM is amongst the worst ever. he should have mowed through the useless Henry then onto Cena.but instead henry beats Ryback(who the crowd went crazy for when he attempted the 1st shellshock)and Ryback is turned into a whiner.....color me confused.so crying about your position is meant to get you over as a heel that can credibly dethrone John Cena? its just one of many examples.look at MVP.....f*ck me they were onto something here....but they totally screwed him up by punishing him onscreen for something he did backstage.....and killed the red hot character stone dead. then you get guys like Swagger and Khali having the world title.....guys I swear they only gave the belt so they could say they are ex World Champs.....or positiong R-Truth as a title contender to Cena after he had did nothing for 14 months..... I could go on all day. The MVP thing still pisses me off to this day. The guy was a great talent. Good in the ring and great promo ability but because of something backstage they put on a loosing streak that lasted months. It totally killed any credibility he had after having a near year long title reign that made the US Title look great. Swagger literally went from losing to Santino on Raw to the MITB winner to the WHC in about a months time. Then he got the title and proceeded to be booked as the least credible champ in years (he was running away from Rey friggin Mysterio) and the WWE wonders why they can't get the guy over. Khali simply got the title because of his size and the potential fan base in India. He had no credibility what so ever and the fact he can't move or talk made it even worse. Ryback was red hot going into HIAC w/ Punk last year but the writers have done the opposite of everything they should have done w/ his character. He went from a potentially legit challenger to Cena to quitting against the Miz of all people. Even since Steph changed up the writing team and structure 10+ years ago the stories and writing have been crap yet the WWE refuses to fix the problem. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 18:27:28 GMT -5
and ya see here we land on the biggest roadblock of them all....Stephanie F*cking McMahon.
its is well known and well talked about on shoots that creative changed much for the worse when she was given the ropes.
under Vince(not always successfully mind you)Creative was a free flowing exchange of ideas....but Vince was at the head of the table as a filter.but to sit at this table Vince had to at least respect you had some f*cking clue of what you were talking about.
things are not this way anymore.the vile steph has surrounded herself with despicable yes men since 2002.....and anyone who dares break trend(despite what good they are doing,Heyman in 2002 SD!)will be removed.
now part of me wonders about this.....Vince still sits at the head of this table.but what he is doing is not working.....
for instance there is no tier of talent.Jobbers,Midcarders and tag teams are interchangeable on a weekly basis depending on what humor these people are in.The Prime Time Players are being used as comedy heel jobbers in singles lately......is that not the role of 3MB?
how is anyone to get elevated in this system?when WWE itself cant sort out the chaff from the wheat.
which brings me to the latest MITB winner......Sandow.talented for sure and has ability to garner heat....but when on earth was the last time this dude won a match on TV?what were his credentials to even gain entry to a MITB match?
like I say I could go on all effin day.
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