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Post by adzy on Jan 18, 2014 15:45:20 GMT -5
Maybes not a topic that deserves a thread but I thought it was something that could provoke a bit discussion. Anyone else think they're too many finishes with quick roll ups? I prefer a decisive KO/pin or submission as a finish but it seems we always get a couple 'lucky' 'sly' pin falls each week, thoughts?
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Jan 18, 2014 15:47:46 GMT -5
WWE does too many matches full stop, and particularly too many matches between the same people. They can't have decisive finishes in every one, because then there wouldn't be a "reason" to do a rematch on the next show.
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Post by adzy on Jan 18, 2014 16:04:48 GMT -5
WWE does too many matches full stop, and particularly too many matches between the same people. They can't have decisive finishes in every one, because then there wouldn't be a "reason" to do a rematch on the next show. Good point I see where you're coming from, I can appreciate a heel maybes low blowing someone then rolling them up to increase heat, but quite often a lot of the faces (D-Bry) pull off roll ups and to me it makes them appear lucky rather than good......dunno maybes im just being fussy
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DestroyerOfNations
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Post by DestroyerOfNations on Jan 18, 2014 16:21:56 GMT -5
I agree with what you're saying OP. A school boy/small package/etc., is a tool that WWE reaches for too often. Sure they're a good reason to keep having rematches with the same two people, but rematches week after week with the same handful of people is boring and repetitive, especially when you know that it doesn't matter who wins.
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Post by The Yes Man on Jan 18, 2014 16:23:32 GMT -5
WWE does too many matches full stop, and particularly too many matches between the same people. They can't have decisive finishes in every one, because then there wouldn't be a "reason" to do a rematch on the next show. Good point I see where you're coming from, I can appreciate a heel maybes low blowing someone then rolling them up to increase heat, but quite often a lot of the faces (D-Bry) pull off roll ups and to me it makes them appear lucky rather than good......dunno maybes im just being fussy Bryan hasn't really done that at all lately. In the summer when he was it was awesome though, I loved seeing the Master of the Small Package return vs Sheamus.
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RollinsFan44
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Post by RollinsFan44 on Jan 18, 2014 16:36:44 GMT -5
I agree with you to an extent. But being a wrestler myself I understand that sometimes the heel needs to go and get a quick roll up victory in order to be a sly son of bitch basically. Plus it sets up a reason for a rematch at the next card and so on.
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Post by adzy on Jan 18, 2014 16:46:13 GMT -5
I agree with you to an extent. But being a wrestler myself I understand that sometimes the heel needs to go and get a quick roll up victory in order to be a sly son of bitch basically. Plus it sets up a reason for a rematch at the next card and so on. Sorry i ain't the biggest poster in this board but im a keen observer, i didn't realise there were ppl here who actually wrestled but good for you dude, hows it going for u?
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Post by wyleecyotee on Jan 18, 2014 17:00:48 GMT -5
I think there needs to be more creativity in match finishes all together.
Steamboat/savage Michaels/Jericho Hart/piper Savage/flair Bret/Owen Bret/bam bam
All matches where a rollup of sorts won it and all considered great matches. A lot of these are really old too which shows how much a big match relies too heavily on a finisher style finish these days.
But matches like hogan/Andre and rock/hogan pretty much need a finisher finish for that big moment ending.
They are a bit overused today, but I also think finisher finishes are over used too, rock/Cena practically used as many finishers everyone else uses in a year in two matches.
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RollinsFan44
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Post by RollinsFan44 on Jan 18, 2014 18:56:20 GMT -5
I agree with you to an extent. But being a wrestler myself I understand that sometimes the heel needs to go and get a quick roll up victory in order to be a sly son of bitch basically. Plus it sets up a reason for a rematch at the next card and so on. Sorry i ain't the biggest poster in this board but im a keen observer, i didn't realise there were ppl here who actually wrestled but good for you dude, hows it going for u? There's actually few of us on here who are wrestlers. It's going pretty well thanks. Not been doing it for that long, though I've been booked for a few shows here and there for the promotion I'm at. It'll probably be quite a busy year for us all this year though as we have a helluva lot more halls and venues we've booked for shows this year than what we had last year.
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Post by marino13 on Jan 18, 2014 19:50:01 GMT -5
I love it when a hard fought contest ends with a quick roll up. Give the fans the interpretation that the match could have gone either way. Leaves em wanting more.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 19, 2014 0:14:01 GMT -5
It's a signal of their lack in creativity as it relates to match choreography. How many of you have seen a SHW go for a splash during a six man tag & suddenly the other two members of the downed man's team swoop in, catch the big man mid-flight, & tossed him aside to save the match?
When was the last time we saw an amateur style cradle of any variation? What about a well done backslide or someone figure out a way to maintain the position of a reversed figure-four & gain a DQ because the villain struck the applicant I'n the genitals? They have a cosmos of creative space only limited by the ingenuity of the bookers & athleticism/skill of the performers.
They are just apathetic or fixated in pandering to mediocrity,
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 0:21:34 GMT -5
It's a signal of their lack in creativity as it relates to match choreography. How many of you have seen a SHW go for a splash during a six man tag & suddenly the other two members of the downed man's team swoop in, catch the big man mid-flight, & tossed him aside to save the match? When was the last time we saw an amateur style cradle of any variation? What about a well done backslide or someone figure out a way to maintain the position of a reversed figure-four & gain a DQ because the villain struck the applicant I'n the genitals? They have a cosmos of creative space only limited by the ingenuity of the bookers & athleticism/skill of the performers. They are just apathetic or fixated in pandering to mediocrity, No disrespect to you, I understand the majority of your opinions. However some I believe even you know are coming from a fans point a view and not a smart business point of view. Which brings me to my point, you have to understand WWE's core is wrestling and it was founded with a wrestling background and history however WWE is not a traditional wrestling promotion any longer. It has not been one since the demise of its competition slowly over the time WWE has developed into a weekly entertainment programing with one or two main dramatic stories. The rest is just entertainment for the audience and the ones watching and waiting to see what happens with those stories. The booking has not mattered in quite sometime for the under card. We have Xavier Woods running a heel program but yet it is being booked with face values? How does that work? I'm suppose to boo Brodus Clay for being mad you stole his gimmick and then bragged about it? Do you see where I'm coming from?
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 19, 2014 0:36:49 GMT -5
It's a signal of their lack in creativity as it relates to match choreography. How many of you have seen a SHW go for a splash during a six man tag & suddenly the other two members of the downed man's team swoop in, catch the big man mid-flight, & tossed him aside to save the match? When was the last time we saw an amateur style cradle of any variation? What about a well done backslide or someone figure out a way to maintain the position of a reversed figure-four & gain a DQ because the villain struck the applicant I'n the genitals? They have a cosmos of creative space only limited by the ingenuity of the bookers & athleticism/skill of the performers. They are just apathetic or fixated in pandering to mediocrity, No disrespect to you, I understand the majority of your opinions. However some I believe even you know are coming from a fans point a view and not a smart business point of view. Which brings me to my point, you have to understand WWE's core is wrestling and it was founded with a wrestling background and history however WWE is not a traditional wrestling promotion any longer. It has not been one since the demise of its competition slowly over the time WWE has developed into a weekly entertainment programing with one or two main dramatic stories. The rest is just entertainment for the audience and the ones watching and waiting to see what happens with those stories. The booking has not mattered in quite sometime for the under card. We have Xavier Woods running a heel program but yet it is being booked with face values? How does that work? I'm suppose to boo Brodus Clay for being mad you stole his gimmick and then bragged about it? Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm far more infuriated than you are such stupid storylines as Woods/Clay debacle than you know. The fact that they are devaluing their roots doesn't make it right. Now I'm more untroubled to know what minority of my observations stand contrarian to you. My observations are based from a perspective where profits aren't derived at the price of your profession's dignity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 0:44:39 GMT -5
No disrespect to you, I understand the majority of your opinions. However some I believe even you know are coming from a fans point a view and not a smart business point of view. Which brings me to my point, you have to understand WWE's core is wrestling and it was founded with a wrestling background and history however WWE is not a traditional wrestling promotion any longer. It has not been one since the demise of its competition slowly over the time WWE has developed into a weekly entertainment programing with one or two main dramatic stories. The rest is just entertainment for the audience and the ones watching and waiting to see what happens with those stories. The booking has not mattered in quite sometime for the under card. We have Xavier Woods running a heel program but yet it is being booked with face values? How does that work? I'm suppose to boo Brodus Clay for being mad you stole his gimmick and then bragged about it? Do you see where I'm coming from? I'm far more infuriated than you are such stupid storylines as Woods/Clay debacle than you know. The fact that they are devaluing their roots doesn't make it right. Now I'm more untroubled to know what minority of my observations stand contrarian to you. Well to build characters you have to start from somewhere. I understand what you are saying, but today's wrestling is far more advanced and more about the story rather than the in ring work in most cases. Which I don't necessarily agree with either but I can tolerate the majority of it and enjoy it for what it is. I come from a time where some of today's stuff isn't as ridiculous as some of the mid 90's WCW stuff so I can respect the WWE for understanding the difference between alright and respectable martial versus something that is just plain ridiculous and bad for everyone involved.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 19, 2014 1:31:25 GMT -5
I'm far more infuriated than you are such stupid storylines as Woods/Clay debacle than you know. The fact that they are devaluing their roots doesn't make it right. Now I'm more untroubled to know what minority of my observations stand contrarian to you. Well to build characters you have to start from somewhere. I understand what you are saying, but today's wrestling is far more advanced and more about the story rather than the in ring work in most cases. Which I don't necessarily agree with either but I can tolerate the majority of it and enjoy it for what it is. I come from a time where some of today's stuff isn't as ridiculous as some of the mid 90's WCW stuff so I can respect the WWE for understanding the difference between alright and respectable martial versus something that is just plain ridiculous and bad for everyone involved. There is a Latin term which means "I believe it because it is ridiculous." used to justify the modern religious practice. A similar phrase applies to me. "If it wasn't fake, I wouldn't be into it." I grew up & will always enjoy authentic grappling, but the beauty of Professional Wrestling is the story telling comprised of the wrestling matches. Which is supplemented by the promos & segments designed to advance the plots being portrayed through the matches & characters in said matches. The very fact that it is NOT a sport, but a theatrical portrayal there of is why I'm so madly in love with the genre of artistic expression through the medium of stage acting & the creation of the illusion of combat. When Killer Kawolski(or any wrestler from the past for that matter) refused to break character, it's an allusion to the "Illusionist's code of conduct". Never tell how the trick is executed. It's more reminiscent of method acting taken to the extreme, but it requires both tactics to complete the task of convincing the audience that you are in the struggle of your existence. This is the essence of "working the crowd". My general point being that just as there is no justification for religion being a moral compass since there are no moral acts that Atheists cannot do equally well,(if not better) there is no reason technical wrestling should've ever fell by the wayside since it can be used to tell even better stories than mere brawling or the abuse of impractical gymnastic duo tricks. The implimentation of these moves under the mindset of preserving a believable psychology would have been FAR more effective in progressing the transition of pro-wrestling into a legitimate artform with it's dignity intact. This is not to convey that the surreal characters & techniques seen in the genre are without value. It's simply that they would posess even greater significance in a wrestling universe where the rules & the integrity of the sport being portrayed were revered. The struggles of the characters would be even more compelling under the compression of the rules, & the desire of the participants to prove themselves under those rules in the most innovative methods possible, until they reach the insurmountable, boiling point of malice between them. Finally the decorum explodes like shrapnel & the climax is all the more rewarding. It is the modern vaudeville under the umbrella of the grand plot of a broadway play with the continuation methods of a soap opera that travels like a circus & portrays the Shakespearean version of gladiators, but portrayed by actors who become their characters through method acting taken to it's most extreme intensities. They used to anyway. I could go on, but I'm afraid I'm wasting the taps of my fingers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 1:55:59 GMT -5
If you and I were discussing AWA or Mid-South, I would be very inclined to read your thoughts on the ability of acting and wrestling ability. However we are discussing a predominant entertainment company based around the squared circle. I understand you are upset the largest company in wrestling today has gone the way of the mainstream views and opinions. I think you know that though but yet still question it for what ever reason when you and I both know it is because of the all mighty dollar. Wrestling fans today are not even remotely like wrestling fans of yesteryear. I was talking to a casual fan the other day discussing Bruno's rise to fame and how he captured the championship for the first time and the response I got was "Who is Bruno?" and who did he ever beat that mattered? So to argue with people about something they have no idea about to begin with is wasting the taps of your fingers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 2:04:43 GMT -5
Maybes not a topic that deserves a thread but I thought it was something that could provoke a bit discussion. Anyone else think they're too many finishes with quick roll ups? I prefer a decisive KO/pin or submission as a finish but it seems we always get a couple 'lucky' 'sly' pin falls each week, thoughts? I was thinking that there weren't enough. I thought this thread was going to be a, "I miss roll ups and school boys" thread. Also, I don't see enough inside cradles.
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Post by Duck Holliday on Jan 19, 2014 2:27:23 GMT -5
The roll-up may be a tad overused, but it can be employed as a good story-telling device.
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inkboy83
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Post by inkboy83 on Jan 19, 2014 2:29:13 GMT -5
In my opinion there isn't enough quick roll-ups. I miss all the different variations, the small package, backslide, victory roll, mahistrol cradle, etc. I also miss heels using the ropes for leverage.
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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 19, 2014 3:47:13 GMT -5
If you and I were discussing AWA or Mid-South, I would be very inclined to read your thoughts on the ability of acting and wrestling ability. However we are discussing a predominant entertainment company based around the squared circle. I understand you are upset the largest company in wrestling today has gone the way of the mainstream views and opinions. I think you know that though but yet still question it for what ever reason when you and I both know it is because of the all mighty dollar. Wrestling fans today are not even remotely like wrestling fans of yesteryear. I was talking to a casual fan the other day discussing Bruno's rise to fame and how he captured the championship for the first time and the response I got was "Who is Bruno?" and who did he ever beat that mattered? So to argue with people about something they have no idea about to begin with is wasting the taps of your fingers.
You're dead wrong when you deligate it to mere questioning. I scrutinize it to the hilt & oppose it vehemently. What sense does it make to have an entertainment based promotion where the matches are unentertaining? Think about the fact that the single wrestler who is garnering the most emphatic reactions is the modern day Johnny Saint. An almost puritanical, technician with a Japanese/Puroresru flare who broke the mold & proved his philosophy true. Great Wrestling can be PG. Great story telling can be PG. They never had a valid excuse for excluding anyone of talent, except for the distorted logic of the fools to which they pander. The all mighty dollar is something of which I am all too aware, but there MUST be a point where you say enough is enough. Your perspective of acceptance-based, realism doesn't deter me from stating the ideal. What are you claiming as your point? That we should just sit back & watch them dive over the fiscal cliff?
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