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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 15:16:11 GMT -5
"And Cena does it with the best of them" YES ! With the BEST of THEM but guess what? Name me one Potential 5 Star Match or Match Of The Year Cena had with guys like Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc etc. I am sure these Matches haven't been THAT great... And NO i am not talking about Gimmick Matches! I am talking about NORMAL 1 on 1 WRESTLING Matches. And sure they said these positive things about him... But on the other hand. Has there ever been anyone in the WWE that said anything negative about Cena? And i know Ultimo Dragon is not in his prime anymore but that does not mean he is less talented! Oh and i get of my "INTERNET WRESTLING COMMUNITY" High Horse if you STOP being active in the INTERNET on sites that are about WRESTLING where you can be part of a COMMUNITY that most of the times discusses about WRESTLING until you learn how stupid that "argument" actually is. Maybe you can do that with the typical Cena hater that has 0 Respect for the Guy and can't admit that Cena has ever had a good Match BUT i am not one of these Guys! And did you mean with "Strong Style high horse" ? Do you have a problem with me acknowledging how good some of the Japanese Wrestlers are? EDIT: Oh and i don't "HATE" Cena. I hate the way he gets used most of the time and how some of his opponents end up after feuding with him! And i did not say that he completly sucks in the Ring! I just said he is not ONE of THE BEST in THE WORLD that's it! Oh! That Iron Man Match where they used Tables(both a regular and the Announce Table), Legacy interfered, Orton used FIREWORKS against Cena just to name a few things... Yeah sure that is a NORMAL 1 on 1 Match with perfectly shows the enormous amount of IN RING Talent John Cena has and which makes him as good as the guys i named before.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 15:23:24 GMT -5
I will say this at the risk of pissing people off, the reason we are still having this discussion in 2015 is because Cena is still making a lot of the same mistakes he was making back in 2006.
I personally heard Stone Cold tell Cena to "synch up on that STF for me kid" on his podcast and Cena ignored it. This is unacceptable. Austin, Edge and Jericho have tried to give Cena advice in the past and he chose to ignore it. Like, those are 3 of the best workers ever and you choose to ignore their advice?
I know a lot of people pick on him for the STF but he has nobody to blame but himself on that one.
Now, from a stale character standpoint, I firmly believe that is WWE's fault alone.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 15:31:37 GMT -5
Oh! That Iron Man Match where they used Tables(both a regular and the Announce Table), Legacy interfered, Orton used FIREWORKS against Cena just to name a few things... Yeah sure that is a NORMAL 1 on 1 Match with perfectly shows the enormous amount of IN RING Talent John Cena has and which makes him as good as the guys i named before. I agree that that wasn't an example I would use, but I send you the same question I did earlier. Can you name a 5 star MOTY candidate that someone from your list of best in the world has had with Batista, Orton, Sheamus, etc.?
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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 15:35:20 GMT -5
Oh! That Iron Man Match where they used Tables(both a regular and the Announce Table), Legacy interfered, Orton used FIREWORKS against Cena just to name a few things... Yeah sure that is a NORMAL 1 on 1 Match with perfectly shows the enormous amount of IN RING Talent John Cena has and which makes him as good as the guys i named before. I agree that that wasn't an example I would use, but I send you the same question I did earlier. Can you name a 5 star MOTY candidate that someone from your list of best in the world has had with Batista, Orton, Sheamus, etc.? I guess i would have answered that if i could. But then go and name me any Wrestler that is not on my list(and does not deserve to be on it!) that has had THAT good Matches with Cena?
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 15:37:17 GMT -5
I agree that that wasn't an example I would use, but I send you the same question I did earlier. Can you name a 5 star MOTY candidate that someone from your list of best in the world has had with Batista, Orton, Sheamus, etc.? I guess i would have answered that if i could. But then go and name me any Wrestler that is not on my list(and does not deserve to be on it!) that has had THAT good Matches with Cena? They pretty much all are among the best in the world, but John Cena deserves to be considered up there, especially with his recent work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 15:42:49 GMT -5
Just a couple more things I'm going to add and then be done.
1. Cena is good. He is very capable of having good to great matches. Period. 2. When people say "Cena sucks" I believe 99% of that is due to his stale character and not necessarily his in-ring work. 3. I think the frustration is that Cena CAN be even better than he is now. It's like, if you were an actor and Edward Norton, Robert DeNiro and Brad Pitt all came up to you and said "hey you're good but why don't you try delivering your lines this way instead" and you chose to ignore their advice then...you would be an idiot. At my work, if a 20 year veteran came to me and said "hey Bash, youre good out there but you're not searching your prisoners properly" and I didn't follow through with that advice then...I'd be a huge idiot.
Lastly, I consider Bret Hart, Curt Hennig and Eddie Guerrero to be the top 3 workers ever. Damn near everything they did looked crisp, smooth and textbook. I think Cena has the ability to be even better than he is now but doesn't do it for whatever reason. A lot of people use size an excuse but Eddie was ripped out of his mind before his death and his stuff looked fantastic. Hennig was not a small man and either is Kurt Angle for that matter.
The point being, Cena is good, his character is absolutely stale as a 10 year old potato chip but the guy can go in the ring. However, after 13 years in WWE he could still improve on a lot of mistakes he's been making throughout his entire tenure.
That is all.
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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 15:45:05 GMT -5
I guess i would have answered that if i could. But then go and name me any Wrestler that is not on my list(and does not deserve to be on it!) that has had THAT good Matches with Cena? They pretty much all are among the best in the world, but John Cena deserves to be considered up there, especially with his recent work. "They" ? Who are "They" ? And sure his recent work has been good but the best of that work has been against guys like Owens, Cesaro, Neville, Zayn etc etc.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 15:47:44 GMT -5
They pretty much all are among the best in the world, but John Cena deserves to be considered up there, especially with his recent work. "They" ? Who are "They" ? And sure his recent work has been good but the best of that work has been against guys like Owens, Cesaro, Neville, Zayn etc etc. By "they" I meant everyone you listed earlier. And again, it takes two to tango. I've seen Cena have good matches with pretty much everyone. It's hard to wrestle anyone that isn't good anymore because the roster is so talented. Hell, the only guy that Cena worked during his Open Challenges that isn't very good is Zack Ryder and he got a good match out of him. He can't just "have good matches with the right opponent", he can have good matches period.
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Post by Rob on Jun 30, 2015 15:51:25 GMT -5
One thing that i'm sure most will agree on is that Cena the character is stale as a 4 year old bag of open cherrios. The guy still has the exact same character as 2005. Absolutely ZERO character developement. The guy DESPERATELY needs a character/moveset revamp. We have seen everything he has to offer... 1000x over.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 15:52:44 GMT -5
It takes 2 to tango homie. And Cena does it with the best of them. Lol at the fact you listed Ultimo Dragon as one of the best wrestlers of the past 10 years. Half those guys you listed, Cena has torn it up with. And you know what the common theme among them is? They all admit Cena is the man and criminally underrated in the ring. Get off your IWC/Strong Style high horse and stop hating on a guy who kills it every week. "And Cena does it with the best of them" YES ! With the BEST of THEM but guess what? Name me one Potential 5 Star Match or Match Of The Year Cena had with guys like Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc etc. I am sure these Matches haven't been THAT great... And NO i am not talking about Gimmick Matches! I am talking about NORMAL 1 on 1 WRESTLING Matches. And sure they said these positive things about him... But on the other hand. Has there ever been anyone in the WWE that said anything negative about Cena? And i know Ultimo Dragon is not in his prime anymore but that does not mean he is less talented! Oh and i get of my "INTERNET WRESTLING COMMUNITY" High Horse if you STOP being active in the INTERNET on sites that are about WRESTLING where you can be part of a COMMUNITY that most of the times discusses about WRESTLING until you learn how stupid that "argument" actually is. Maybe you can do that with the typical Cena hater that has 0 Respect for the Guy and can't admit that Cena has ever had a good Match BUT i am not one of these Guys! And did you mean with "Strong Style high horse" ? Do you have a problem with me acknowledging how good some of the Japanese Wrestlers are? EDIT: Oh and i don't "HATE" Cena. I hate the way he gets used most of the time and how some of his opponents end up after feuding with him! And i did not say that he completly sucks in the Ring! I just said he is not ONE of THE BEST in THE WORLD that's it! vs Orton - Bragging Rights 2009 vs Orton - Hell In A Cell 2009 vs Orton - Summerslam 2007
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 15:53:49 GMT -5
One thing that i'm sure most will agree on is that Cena the character is stale as a 4 year old bag of open cherrios. The guy still has the exact same character as 2005. Absolutely ZERO character developement. The guy DESPERATELY needs a character/moveset revamp. We have seen everything he has to offer... 1000x over. He was still doing the rapper schtick in 2005.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 15:57:00 GMT -5
"They"
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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 15:58:14 GMT -5
"They" ? Who are "They" ? And sure his recent work has been good but the best of that work has been against guys like Owens, Cesaro, Neville, Zayn etc etc. By "they" I meant everyone you listed earlier. And again, it takes two to tango. I've seen Cena have good matches with pretty much everyone. It's hard to wrestle anyone that isn't good anymore because the roster is so talented. Hell, the only guy that Cena worked during his Open Challenges that isn't very good is Zack Ryder and he got a good match out of him. He can't just "have good matches with the right opponent", he can have good matches period. Well it might takes two to tango but i never saw Tango Dancers say loudly how they dance Partner needs to do what they have to do... Just saying... Besides that he botches many "new" Moves that he tries to do and one of his Finishers is just a cheap parody of that Move he tries to do. And these things are reasons of him not being one of the Best in the World... He is "good/decent" and he can have "good/decent" Matches but that's it... And it is no Suprise that his Best Matches have been against the Guys i listed...
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Post by Hervine on Jun 30, 2015 15:59:02 GMT -5
Anyone not blinded by hatred can admit to that.. maybe. Cena annoys me but I always look forward to his big matches because I'm a wrestling fan and not a results fan.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 16:03:06 GMT -5
By "they" I meant everyone you listed earlier. And again, it takes two to tango. I've seen Cena have good matches with pretty much everyone. It's hard to wrestle anyone that isn't good anymore because the roster is so talented. Hell, the only guy that Cena worked during his Open Challenges that isn't very good is Zack Ryder and he got a good match out of him. He can't just "have good matches with the right opponent", he can have good matches period. Well it might takes two to tango but i never saw Tango Dancers say loudly how they dance Partner needs to do what they have to do... Just saying... Besides that he botches many "new" Moves that he tries to do and one of his Finishers is just a cheap parody of that Move he tries to do. And these things are reasons of him not being one of the Best in the World... He is "good/decent" and he can have "good/decent" Matches but that's it... And it is no Suprise that his Best Matches have been against the Guys i listed... Yes, Cena calls spots loudly. It's bad. He also doesn't really botch new moves, they just tend to look awkward. There's a different. CM Punk's best ever WWE match is against John Cena. One of Daniel Bryan's best matches in WWe was against John Cena. Kevin Owens best match in WWE came against John Cena. Neville's best main roster main was against John Cena. Notice a trend there? It's no surprise that Cena was involved in them.
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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 16:08:38 GMT -5
"And Cena does it with the best of them" YES ! With the BEST of THEM but guess what? Name me one Potential 5 Star Match or Match Of The Year Cena had with guys like Orton, Batista, Sheamus etc etc. I am sure these Matches haven't been THAT great... And NO i am not talking about Gimmick Matches! I am talking about NORMAL 1 on 1 WRESTLING Matches. And sure they said these positive things about him... But on the other hand. Has there ever been anyone in the WWE that said anything negative about Cena? And i know Ultimo Dragon is not in his prime anymore but that does not mean he is less talented! Oh and i get of my "INTERNET WRESTLING COMMUNITY" High Horse if you STOP being active in the INTERNET on sites that are about WRESTLING where you can be part of a COMMUNITY that most of the times discusses about WRESTLING until you learn how stupid that "argument" actually is. Maybe you can do that with the typical Cena hater that has 0 Respect for the Guy and can't admit that Cena has ever had a good Match BUT i am not one of these Guys! And did you mean with "Strong Style high horse" ? Do you have a problem with me acknowledging how good some of the Japanese Wrestlers are? EDIT: Oh and i don't "HATE" Cena. I hate the way he gets used most of the time and how some of his opponents end up after feuding with him! And i did not say that he completly sucks in the Ring! I just said he is not ONE of THE BEST in THE WORLD that's it! vs Orton - Bragging Rights 2009 vs Orton - Hell In A Cell 2009 vs Orton - Summerslam 2007 Everythings Goes including the usage of Tables, Legacy and Pyro Inside a Giant Cage including the usage of many different Objects & A Match i actually never saw but it only has a 4 Star Rating and i haven't read anything outstanding positive about it anyway so...
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 16:11:02 GMT -5
vs Orton - Bragging Rights 2009 vs Orton - Hell In A Cell 2009 vs Orton - Summerslam 2007 Everythings Goes including the usage of Tables, Legacy and Pyro Inside a Giant Cage including the usage of many different Objects & A Match i actually never saw but it only has a 4 Star Rating and i haven't read anything outstanding positive about it anyway so... In my view, Cena and Orton just never clicked. They try to bill it as this legendary rivalry but overall, it has sucked. It's not because either guy isn't good, sometimes two people just don't have chemistry. The only match of their that ever stood out to me was the 2009 Hell in a Cell match.
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Post by MADNESS_NH_97 on Jun 30, 2015 16:16:17 GMT -5
Well it might takes two to tango but i never saw Tango Dancers say loudly how they dance Partner needs to do what they have to do... Just saying... Besides that he botches many "new" Moves that he tries to do and one of his Finishers is just a cheap parody of that Move he tries to do. And these things are reasons of him not being one of the Best in the World... He is "good/decent" and he can have "good/decent" Matches but that's it... And it is no Suprise that his Best Matches have been against the Guys i listed... Yes, Cena calls spots loudly. It's bad. He also doesn't really botch new moves, they just tend to look awkward. There's a different. CM Punk's best ever WWE match is against John Cena. One of Daniel Bryan's best matches in WWe was against John Cena. Kevin Owens best match in WWE came against John Cena. Neville's best main roster main was against John Cena. Notice a trend there? It's no surprise that Cena was involved in them. It's no suprise either that Vince loves Cena and most likley will make sure that in these Matches they show as much as possible to make the Matches as good as they have been. I am sure if WWE would have allowed them to Matches like Punk Vs. Bryan or Owens Vs. Neville would have been THAT good to... On the other hand has Ambrose Vs. Cena been Ambrose's Best Match in his WWE Career? or Kane Vs. Cena? Or Stardust/Cody Rhodes Vs. Cena? Where THESE Matches the Best WWE Matches of THESE Guys?
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Jun 30, 2015 16:23:37 GMT -5
Yes, Cena calls spots loudly. It's bad. He also doesn't really botch new moves, they just tend to look awkward. There's a different. CM Punk's best ever WWE match is against John Cena. One of Daniel Bryan's best matches in WWe was against John Cena. Kevin Owens best match in WWE came against John Cena. Neville's best main roster main was against John Cena. Notice a trend there? It's no surprise that Cena was involved in them. It's no suprise either that Vince loves Cena and most likley will make sure that in these Matches they show as much as possible to make the Matches as good as they have been. I am sure if WWE would have allowed them to Matches like Punk Vs. Bryan or Owens Vs. Neville would have been THAT good to... On the other hand has Ambrose Vs. Cena been Ambrose's Best Match in his WWE Career? or Kane Vs. Cena? Or Stardust/Cody Rhodes Vs. Cena? Where THESE Matches the Best WWE Matches of THESE Guys? So now the reason for Cena having the best matches with the likes of Punk and Bryan is because WWE likes him so much that they allow him to have good matches? Ambrose vs. Cena wasn't his best but it was one of his better ones. His stuff with Seth was best. Kane vs. Cena? No, though that's mainly because Kane is way past his prime and has a LARGE catalog of matches since 1997. As Stardust, it was his best match. As Cody, he's had very few better.
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Post by Next Man’s Knowing Rock on Jun 30, 2015 16:46:11 GMT -5
Oh and i don't "HATE" Cena. I hate the way he gets used most of the time and how some of his opponents end up after feuding with him! They end up a lot richer than if they'd spent that time wrestling Sin Cara on Superstars. So I guess you hate some of his opponents making money.
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