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Post by Bandalero on Jan 6, 2016 12:07:27 GMT -5
I'm creating this thread here to get some insights from fellow classic enthusiasts becuse I'm just not getting it.
I'm not a wrestling purest, but I like to be entertained. I've been a life-long 30+ year fan who diligently did his homework on wrestling's past as a kid - From Gorgeous George to John Tolos, and I'd like to think I know when good wrestling is on my TV like Lucha Underground (Vampiro vs Pentagon Jr is how hardcore is done). I'd also like to think I can follow in-ring psychology. Yet there's some wrestlers today that have the whole world enamoured and I'm not sure why it's slipped by me.
Everyone's raving about Styles, Anderson, Festus-err-Gallows and Nakamura coming to WWE and while I'm familiar with the first three (and love AJ's work), I had to do some research on Nakamura. I watched his G1 matches and once I got beyond how ugly he looks, his Sabu-esque arm scarf, and his flamboyant mannerism in the ring, I don't see how he "oozes charisma" like how the ICW is reacting. He's got a vicious looking running knee but he has no air of mystery like the Great Muta or Great Kabuki, or the arial ability of Lyger, presence like Giant Baba, or mat work of Tenryu to name a few.
And it's not that he's from Japan. Right now I'm still trying to figure out Kevin Steen. There's been some highly successful overweight wrestlers (Dusty Rhodes), but his ring attire is so bush-league. However I like the fact that he's trying to be a real traditional heel in his gimmick. Young guys talk about move-sets, his is nothing spectacular - to me Sid's powerbomb looked more deadly that Kevin's pop-up powerbomb that his opponent is doing the most work for when executing that move.
So I'd like to hear, is old school wrestling influencing your view of today's product?
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Post by T R W on Jan 6, 2016 12:15:28 GMT -5
I feel this way often now. I think a lot of it is just what we consider to be the best and what we want. Most people our age think of Flair/Steamboat when it comes to what we want and what we think the best is. While a lot of people in their 20's or younger want something different. Not that either is better than the other. But the Attitude Era changed what fans want and expect from wrestling, for better or worse. Not that Vince delivers what either fan wants, young or old.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 12:17:09 GMT -5
I feel this way often now. I think a lot of it is just what we consider to be the best and what we want. Most people our age think of Flair/Steamboat when it comes to what we want and what we think the best is. While a lot of people in their 20's or younger want something different. Not that either is better than the other. But the Attitude Era changed what fans want and expect from wrestling, for better or worse. Not that Vince delivers what either fan wants, young or old. Hit the nail on the head. |
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 6, 2016 12:18:25 GMT -5
I feel this way often now. I think a lot of it is just what we consider to be the best and what we want. Most people our age think of Flair/Steamboat when it comes to what we want and what we think the best is. While a lot of people in their 20's or younger want something different. Not that either is better than the other. But the Attitude Era changed what fans want and expect from wrestling, for better or worse. Not that Vince delivers what either fan wants, young or old. Wow so true, I could watch all three of their '89 matches over and over again. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 12:42:21 GMT -5
So I'd like to hear, is old school wrestling influencing your view of today's product? It very much does. I constantly have to step back and look at how much the product has changed. There are a lot of current wrestlers that would not have made it when I was a kid. That and fans these days will never know the joy of finally getting to rent the VHS once your name finally came up on the list. Lol. I love so many of the current workers, but things for them would have been so much different in the territories. |
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 6, 2016 12:42:56 GMT -5
while i'm on my soap box, do you guys remember when we looked forward to signature spots (like Flair's turnbuckle flip, figure four setup, or face flop) rather than sit there and compare wrestler move-sets? It was all about styles having chemistry to tell a story in the ring. Or when heels carried around Slammy Awards instead of faces  |
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Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Jan 6, 2016 12:46:26 GMT -5
I feel the same way about the current product. At times I feel the internet hypes up a certain wrestler because somehow they get a following, and then when we - the casual WWE fan (for the most part) - see said wrestler we are expecting a lot more than what we see, so we aren't impressed.
I have been vocal from the get go about Kevin Owens on here. And it was never that I thought he was a bad wrestler, I just never understood the hype about him. I never liked how he wore basketball shorts and a shirt, when he didn't have a street thug gimmick to go with that look. I saw Dusty Rhodes, Bam Bam Bigelow, Vader, Bundy, and others and they all wore wrestling tights because they were wrestlers.
The group "The Bullet Club" are pretty much just NWO with a twist. I always thought that the Bullet Club was over hyped too, but I was an AJ Styles fan so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. But the internet fans were buzzing for years about the Bullet Club, and look what happened?? Triple H (no doubt) made sure to get AJ, Gallows and Anderson. Why Gallows?? He already had a job in the WWE, and not a lot has changed for him since he was there. As for Nakamura, he is just really tall and the WWE will be excited about that. The land of the giants, if you will. No small Asian men, and if the WWE does have that, they end up treating them as a comedy act somehow.
I just came to the conclusion to just ignore the hype that the internet gives some wrestlers. It will make you enjoy wrestling a lot more.
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 6, 2016 12:50:36 GMT -5
I feel the same way about the current product. At times I feel the internet hypes up a certain wrestler because somehow they get a following, and then when we - the casual WWE fan (for the most part) - see said wrestler we are expecting a lot more than what we see, so we aren't impressed. I have been vocal from the get go about Kevin Owens on here. And it was never that I thought he was a bad wrestler, I just never understood the hype about him. I never liked how he wore basketball shorts and a shirt, when he didn't have a street thug gimmick to go with that look. I saw Dusty Rhodes, Bam Bam Bigelow, Vader, Bundy, and others and they all wore wrestling tights because they were wrestlers. The group "The Bullet Club" are pretty much just NWO with a twist. I always thought that the Bullet Club was over hyped too, but I was an AJ Styles fan so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. But the internet fans were buzzing for years about the Bullet Club, and look what happened?? Triple H (no doubt) made sure to get AJ, Gallows and Anderson. Why Gallows?? He already had a job in the WWE, and not a lot has changed for him since he was there. As for Nakamura, he is just really tall and the WWE will be excited about that. The land of the giants, if you will. No small Asian men, and if the WWE does have that, they end up treating them as a comedy act somehow. I just came to the conclusion to just ignore the hype that the internet gives some wrestlers. It will make you enjoy wrestling a lot more. That's hilarious! he is quite tall though. |
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Post by Glorydaysofwrestling on Jan 6, 2016 16:46:09 GMT -5
I've been a fan since 85, 32 years old and I agree with you. I'm glad I have the network so I can watch all the older stuff. Today's wrestling is bland and repetitive with all the constant signature spots and high spots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 4:52:49 GMT -5
Shinsuke wasn't always a drugged out woman, he started that around 2013. He can come off as a legitimate badass, as he also did well in MMA at one point.
He's my favorite wrestler, so obviously I'm biased, but I assure you he can bring a lot to the table. His match with Kota Ibushi is flat out one of the best matches I've ever seen. If you can't find something to enjoy about that, then I don't know what to tell you. He also took a B title and elevated it so high that it could main event PPVs without the World Champion. Nakamura isn't some "indy darling", he's a guy that can sell out arenas in Japan and not even be the main attraction.
I mean, I get everything subjective and all, but I don't understand how you can boil it down to "he's really tall". Nakamura is revered by many wrestlers and personalities and has been praised by many in the industry for years now. He's going to definitely have to work on his English though. I've watched him speak it in videos, and he kind of struggles with it.
I think people are prone, whether it's subconscious or not, to be drawn to what they've grown up with. Many people hate John Cena and Batista, but I love both of them due in part because I grew up with them. Now, that' s not to say I can't go back and appreciate and watch older wrestling as I have done so with WCW over the past few months and have loved that as well. Wrestling has just changed. 20+ years ago a DDT would have ended a match. Now you see guys doing several during one match. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is what it is.
TLDR: Wrestling is entirely subjective. As is everything. There's plenty of matches that people love that I just don't get the hype for. Same with music, and movies and so on. There's plenty of wrestlers people love that I've never enjoyed, but that's them and that's totally fine haha
Also, the Bullet Club sucks. I'm not defending that garbage, it needs to die.
Edit: God I miss Joker. This section completely died when his account was deleted.
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 7, 2016 10:43:57 GMT -5
Not sure what the last comment was about there @monoxide23, but good points all around 'cept I grew up during the start of Hulkamania and hated Hogan with a passion to this day. And I feel so validated all these decades later when I've learnt what an ass clown he is outside the ring.
I get that Nakamura's gimmick is a "drugged out woman" now, but Johnny B. Badd had more charisma to me. I dont know how this guy connects with the audience. His match with Styles Jan-4 showed him grimacing and skinning out his black mouth guard to the crowd frequently. He's selling his opponents moves well, I get it, but showing your mouth guard is all it takes to "connect" with the crowd now? I don't think he's a bad wrestler at all, but you mentioned his match with Ibushi which I researched as well and it's an outstanding match, but to me Kato carried it.
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Post by marino13 on Jan 7, 2016 13:55:03 GMT -5
There are times I feel the same way. I hear people today rant and rave about the Young Bucks, but I don't see it. And while I like Styles, I don't love him like so many others do. To be fair to Nakamura, I've only watched two matches (in Kev's list), and while I enjoyed them, the jury is still out. For now, I too would rather watch Steamboat/Flair or Steamboat/Savage any day. But I'm hoping in the next few months, I'm talking about how impressed I am in him too. I will say though, there are still young talent I can buy into. Owens is one. IMO he has a very old school approach to being a heel that so many today do not understand. And I think Sami Zayn has potential to be one of the biggest stars of a time if booked properly. Balor is another. And I think Apollo Crews is a surefire future WWE champion. Not sure what the last comment was about there @monoxide23 , but good points all around 'cept I grew up during the start of Hulkamania and hated Hogan with a passion to this day. And I feel so validated all these decades later when I've learnt what an ass clown he is outside the ring. I get that Nakamura's gimmick is a "drugged out woman" now, but Johnny B. Badd had more charisma to me. I dont know how this guy connects with the audience. His match with Styles Jan-4 showed him grimacing and skinning out his black mouth guard to the crowd frequently. He's selling his opponents moves well, I get it, but showing your mouth guard is all it takes to "connect" with the crowd now? I don't think he's a bad wrestler at all, but you mentioned his match with Ibushi which I researched as well and it's an outstanding match, but to me Kato carried it. Man, you have no idea how much I appreciate reading that. For the longest time I thought I was the only one. Gotta love how the internet let's you talk to such a range of fans. |
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 7, 2016 14:09:32 GMT -5
I think Hogan was a big part of what turned me off from WWF back in the day. It wasn't that I was pro-heel or anything, but just like fans today view Cena as Superman, Hogan could not lose anything and it jarred me out of my suspension-of-disbelief even as a kid when everything was kayfabe.
And I don't mean to come off sounding like an old prude because Sasha Banks and Asuka have gotten me as excited for the product as I was when I was a kid at the edge of my seat cheering on Sting - and thats' womens wrestling! Owens is a throw-back heel for sure, I just wish he'd change his attire. To me he's not being different, his look is too "backyard-ish" for me which again jars me out of my suspension-of-disbelief.
Nakamura looks like an idiot, honestly. Nothing against his wrestling ability or toughness and I'll buy that he's not just an 'internet darling'. But how does he get over a gimmick like that? Times do change.
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Post by tarver89 on Jan 7, 2016 14:21:05 GMT -5
Please tell me if i'm wrong, i think your point is that there isn't that "magic feel" around wrestling, is that correct?
I mean, a match like Flair vs Steamboat (choose one from the over 100 they had) brought you that magic sensation inside you that made you think "wow, i witnessed something that will be a milestone forever".
That feeling doesn't show up anymore, am i correct? There are no more guys that could keep you anxsious to watch the next episode, if that's what i understood.
I speak for myself, but Owens is one of that guys that back in the day he could have been along with great heels like you were used to watch. He's so natural at doing what he does that sometimes i think he's not even acting but he's doing what he really feels to do, and that to me is the IT-factor. Making you believe he's not doing it because he has to as a job but because he's enjoying it is the best feeling that a wrestler (not sports-entertainer, WRESTLER) could ever make you feel.
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Post by marino13 on Jan 7, 2016 14:51:10 GMT -5
I think Hogan was a big part of what turned me off from WWF back in the day. It wasn't that I was pro-heel or anything, but just like fans today view Cena as Superman, Hogan could not lose anything and it jarred me out of my suspension-of-disbelief even as a kid when everything was kayfabe. Not to derail the thread further, but I am so used to Hogan's BS, that I don't even bat an eye at guys like Cena or Roman nowadays. As bad as people thinks it is now, it'll never be as bad as Hogan kicking out of everyone's finishers and refusing to take a clean loss during his 5 year long run as champion. IMO his stronghold over the title ruined what could have been an exciting with some of the best legends of all time. |
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Post by k5 on Jan 7, 2016 16:46:22 GMT -5
i've found my interests in wrestling have slowly gone farther and farther back instead of being too concerned with the current product - luckily, there's a whole selection of promotions from the 70s and 80s to get drawn into.
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Post by mikey1974 on Jan 7, 2016 17:13:27 GMT -5
I started watching arounf late 1983 or so. First match I ever saw was Snuka vs Muraco in the cage from MSG. I was pretty much instantly hooked, and watched the WWF pretty much religiously from then until around 2007 or so - All American Wrestling, Tuesday Night Titans, Prime Time Wrestling, Wrestling Challenge, Superstars,Saturday Night's Main Event/The Main Event,everything. And I got EVERY WWF PPV from the 1st Survivor Series up til WrestleMania 23. except 2 that I couldn't because of my work schedule at my new job ( WrestleMania VIII and Survivor Series 92) . I lived, breathed, bled, and sweat WWF At one point I could rattle off the neame of every single WWF/WWE Champion, IC Champion, and Tag Champs in order. I kinda dropped pro wrestling cold turkey in 1997, and tried to pick up again starting in 2010 with WrestleMania XXVI. Part of it was because my best friend Corey and I reconnected after years estranged, and he was still a huge fan. Part of it was because my kid was just starting to get into it. And part of it was my own curiosity to see how the product was. I simply couldn't get back into it. As hard as I try, I just can't keep the interest anymore.
Part of it is definitely because not only do I think things were better in the "old days", but apparently many others do as well, so I guess it's not a "rose-colored glasses" type of situation. When Undertaker was going to kill Hulk Hogan, you were invested, and had genuine emotion in the situation. When Jake Roberts had his King Cobra bite Macho Man, people cried. When Bret and Owen fought, you felt the emotion of the situation through your TV screen. When the dasterdly Mr. McMahon tried to screw Stone Cold at every turn, you wanted to be in that ring helping Austin deliver Stunner's.
Today, we watch Roman Reigns get screwed by the Authority, and we yawn. We see Charlotte and Becky Lynch put on a 5-Star match, and it's time for a piss break. There's no emotional attachment, no investment in what we're seeing anymore. WWE has become a product, no different than McDonalds or Wal-Mart. It's become a corporate-first, focus-group minded product more than an organic, living, breathing thing like it used to be. Thank God for, ironically enough, the WWE Network, cause at least I can watch the good ol' days whenever I want,rather than the PC-grounded fast food product that we currently are forced to endure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 17:48:46 GMT -5
Not sure what the last comment was about there @monoxide23, but good points all around 'cept I grew up during the start of Hulkamania and hated Hogan with a passion to this day. And I feel so validated all these decades later when I've learnt what an ass clown he is outside the ring. I get that Nakamura's gimmick is a "drugged out woman" now, but Johnny B. Badd had more charisma to me. I dont know how this guy connects with the audience. His match with Styles Jan-4 showed him grimacing and skinning out his black mouth guard to the crowd frequently. He's selling his opponents moves well, I get it, but showing your mouth guard is all it takes to "connect" with the crowd now? I don't think he's a bad wrestler at all, but you mentioned his match with Ibushi which I researched as well and it's an outstanding match, but to me Kato carried it. I typed that when I was delirious from lack of sleep lol Joker is a former member here and mod of this section. I don't think Ibushi carried it at all as Shinsuke has numerous **** and up matches in his career, but that's where the subjective part plays in. It's cool if you're not a Nakamura fan, but he's the first guy in years to have captivated me in a way he has. I've watched numerous matches of his, and am happy he's doing whatever he wants to do in terms of his career. As for the connection thing, most people don't get why Jeff Hardy connected with the audience so much. He couldn't wrestle very well, he couldn't cut a great promo, yet he was the closest person ever to outselling Cena in merchandise. Jeff has always been ridiculously over, and no on really knows why. Some people just connect with the audience like that. As for the Hulk thing, I can get why. I've gone back and watched older stuff and Hogan played dirty, and he was always shown to never be wrong. Like when Sid eliminated him and he threw a temper tantrum at the Rumble, or winning the title from Yokozuna? That kind of stuff would have driven me crazy too haha |
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 7, 2016 22:51:37 GMT -5
Please tell me if i'm wrong, i think your point is that there isn't that "magic feel" around wrestling, is that correct? I mean, a match like Flair vs Steamboat (choose one from the over 100 they had) brought you that magic sensation inside you that made you think "wow, i witnessed something that will be a milestone forever". That feeling doesn't show up anymore, am i correct? There are no more guys that could keep you anxsious to watch the next episode, if that's what i understood. I speak for myself, but Owens is one of that guys that back in the day he could have been along with great heels like you were used to watch. He's so natural at doing what he does that sometimes i think he's not even acting but he's doing what he really feels to do, and that to me is the IT-factor. Making you believe he's not doing it because he has to as a job but because he's enjoying it is the best feeling that a wrestler (not sports-entertainer, WRESTLER) could ever make you feel. Hey tarver89, that's not quite true. It's not the magic feel I'm after. I've taken pride in myself that I've been a life-long wrestling fan, that I can go toe-to-toe with most anyone on the board re: wrestling history (well more specifically western-wrestling history). And I'm not closed-minded when it comes to international wrestling, granted I'm not completely invested internationally, but I try to be current as I can. I think Lucha Underground's business model is the most innovative/refreshing thing since ECW re-invented hardcore or Austin ushered in the Attitude Era. With all that knowledge I'd also like to think that I understand ring psychology and what a wrestler needs to do to have the audience eating out of his/her hands. I'm not getting it with Nakamura, I'm not fully understanding his psychology, he's not a spot-fest monster and he's not visually appealing, yet he's touted as the best wrestler in the world today. I've googled a whole bunch of wrestling articles that claims this. And I'm wondering how disconnected am I with modern-day wrestling if I can't see what apparently everyone else sees. I was so pumped for Mistico coming to WWE and he fell flat on his face...literally...a number of times. And I was incredibly impressed with his AAA work. Nakamura is selling out Japanese arenas and elevating B-level titles to main event status and I'm like "meh" about his presentation/ring-work. yes I'll agree with you that Owens is a wrestler, but then why doesn't he dress like a wrestler? Even a wrestling singlet for a man with his build would be appropriate. That may come across as me being some grumpy old dude, but he dresses like a fat white New Jack and it looks foolish. And before anyone gets down on my about fashion. A wrestler today is really about having the total package - the look, promo-cutting and the in-ring ability, because it's always been about how you market yourself and your gimmick. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 23:16:01 GMT -5
Please tell me if i'm wrong, i think your point is that there isn't that "magic feel" around wrestling, is that correct? I mean, a match like Flair vs Steamboat (choose one from the over 100 they had) brought you that magic sensation inside you that made you think "wow, i witnessed something that will be a milestone forever". That feeling doesn't show up anymore, am i correct? There are no more guys that could keep you anxsious to watch the next episode, if that's what i understood. I speak for myself, but Owens is one of that guys that back in the day he could have been along with great heels like you were used to watch. He's so natural at doing what he does that sometimes i think he's not even acting but he's doing what he really feels to do, and that to me is the IT-factor. Making you believe he's not doing it because he has to as a job but because he's enjoying it is the best feeling that a wrestler (not sports-entertainer, WRESTLER) could ever make you feel. Hey tarver89, that's not quite true. It's not the magic feel I'm after. I've taken pride in myself that I've been a life-long wrestling fan, that I can go toe-to-toe with most anyone on the board re: wrestling history (well more specifically western-wrestling history). And I'm not closed-minded when it comes to international wrestling, granted I'm not completely invested internationally, but I try to be current as I can. I think Lucha Underground's business model is the most innovative/refreshing thing since ECW re-invented hardcore or Austin ushered in the Attitude Era. With all that knowledge I'd also like to think that I understand ring psychology and what a wrestler needs to do to have the audience eating out of his/her hands. I'm not getting it with Nakamura, I'm not fully understanding his psychology, he's not a spot-fest monster and he's not visually appealing, yet he's touted as the best wrestler in the world today. I've googled a whole bunch of wrestling articles that claims this. And I'm wondering how disconnected am I with modern-day wrestling if I can't see what apparently everyone else sees. I was so pumped for Mistico coming to WWE and he fell flat on his face...literally...a number of times. And I was incredibly impressed with his AAA work. Nakamura is selling out Japanese arenas and elevating B-level titles to main event status and I'm like "meh" about his presentation/ring-work. yes I'll agree with you that Owens is a wrestler, but then why doesn't he dress like a wrestler? Even a wrestling singlet for a man with his build would be appropriate. That may come across as me being some grumpy old dude, but he dresses like a fat white New Jack and it looks foolish. And before anyone gets down on my about fashion. A wrestler today is really about having the total package - the look, promo-cutting and the in-ring ability, because it's always been about how you market yourself and your gimmick. Owens bought ring gear, and they told him he couldn't use it. That's why he kept the shorts and t-shirts. |
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