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Post by Turnbuckle Zealot(Phil) on Jan 28, 2016 4:26:29 GMT -5
Professional Wrestling is an art form born of improvisational live performance, as led by the initiative of portraying a legitimate contest. It is a painful irony that art with such an origin, would be most widely consumed by the world, when it is the least loyal to its roots.
The wrestling profession has been stripped from the hands of the territorial bookers, & plopped on the conference room tables of writing teams. Ensembles of over-educated imbeciles who haven't the foggiest inkling of how to translate their story-smith knowledge to the squared circle. The utter misuse of the roster's strongest talents is definitive proof, of the problems among the monkeys since they ain't cranking out Shakespeare.
My concern over this issue has grown grown by leaps & bounds, since the first announcement of WWE's recent influx of talent acquisitions. Pillars of the last vestige of the territories & titans of Puroresu such as Austin Aries, Shinsuke Nakamura, A.J. Styles, "Machine Gun," Karl Anderson, & Doc Gallows joining the world of Sports Entertainment(all except for Gallows) for the first time.
These men have created prolific bodies of work, respected by well studied fans the world over. They all have contributed to matches that define the standards of Matdom greatness in our age.
How did they achieve their greatness? By wrestling for promotions that let them be great. Occasional botch & bad story-arc aside, these 5 men have overcome almost everything to become future legends. However, Turnbuckle Vaudeville's answer to Hollywood, has a rather prolifically bad habit of degrading actors that aren't "Made," from working in their movies.
So the question stands. If you don't enjoy the way WWE has booked the majority of it's wrestlers, what makes you think you'll enjoy what WWE does with these 5 stars?
If you haven't loved or even greatly liked the movies of a certain studio company, & they make grabs at actors you love for their work in other projects, what makes you think the studio will actually do much better with these new actors?
If you don't like the studio, & know they won't change, why want your favorite actors to go there?
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Post by cmiller79 on Jan 28, 2016 5:44:58 GMT -5
Because occasionally wwe books someone/something the right way
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Post by Epic Z on Jan 28, 2016 5:57:45 GMT -5
If I understand what you're asking... It's simple, WWE is the biggest wrestling company in the world and its cool to see guys who you like for so long finally get to the pinnacle of pro wrestling. I like your analogy, but it's like comparing a homemade film with friends to a Hollywood movie. You want to walk the red carpets and be at the oscars (in this case wrestlemania) even though you might have more fun making a movie with your friends and you'll all get lead roles, but there's nothing that can compare to Hollywood.
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Post by Flair Forever on Jan 28, 2016 7:31:45 GMT -5
I think, even as bad as WWE is, spending a few years there sort of "cements" your legacy. The mass exposure a wrestler gets in WWE guarantees them a lifetime of name/face recognition - future autograph signings, indy appearances, & general WORK. Well after they've gone from WWE.....
But I agree with what you are saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 8:54:59 GMT -5
From a fan's perspective there are some who could care less if they're favorite wrestlers ever make it to 'the big time' So long as they can keep seeing them have great matches elsewhere....it seems though that many wrestlers hold the belief that unless you have main- evented Wrestlemania or even just have a match on the card of Wrestlemania, you havented truly 'made it' in your career.
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Post by ~ Cymru ~ on Jan 28, 2016 9:18:55 GMT -5
For the most part I enjoy the shows, I understand why they book guys a certain way, some people either refuse to believe or are too stupid to see. People act like WWE really dont know what they're doing, but you dont get to be the only horse in town by being clueless stupid.
Some people focus more on what they would do, or how they think things should have happened, by the time they're bitched and complained theyve ruined the show for themselves.
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Post by ricflair4ever on Jan 28, 2016 9:31:15 GMT -5
I agree with the basis of what you're saying. I generally always do when it pertains to our love of the game from days gone by. The reason i look forward to these signings, is not because i necessarily have any faith in these guys getting major pushes or revolutionizing the company in any way. I just look at the potential for in ring performance getting upped. Dream matches can come to pass, people who otherwise wouldn't, will be exposed to their great ring work and theres always an outside chance that they might.....even if doubtfully......get over bigger than any of us expect. Its basically fantasy booking come to life. And,at its worst, at least it gives us something different.
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Post by Bandalero on Jan 28, 2016 9:40:31 GMT -5
I think, even as bad as WWE is, spending a few years there sort of "cements" your legacy. The mass exposure a wrestler gets in WWE guarantees them a lifetime of name/face recognition - future autograph signings, indy appearances, & general WORK. Well after they've gone from WWE..... But I agree with what you are saying. I also agree with what Phil is saying. AJ Styles is in my top ten of all time great entertainers - I was a fan since 2006 in his three-way series with Daniels and Joe, but maybe I'm jaded to think he's not going to be written like that in the WWE. I bolded the above quote because that is also true! Look no further than the legend himself, Virgil.
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Post by punksnotdead on Jan 28, 2016 9:50:02 GMT -5
Well, in the case of AJ Styles, he's done everything he can do outside of WWE. Now, when he's at the absolute top of his game as a total package performer, he's in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world. I could really argue the same for Aries and Joe, who aren't getting main roster treatment but have still done it all in ROH and TNA. It solidifies those names. It gives credence to those guys as performers. AJ Styles was always that guy that fans loved unconditionally that everyone outside of the TNA fanbase, and more recently the ROH/NJPW fanbase, said could never be in WWE, and look how wrong those people are right now. That makes me happy. Sure, it's a petty belief, but AJ deserves every bit of this run, and I've already seen him wrestle everyone under the sun outside of WWE.
The world we live in now is vastly different than the world just a few years ago. CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins. We have Cesaro, Ambrose, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Finn Balor, Apollo Crews, and all of these guys are making a difference, and the fans enjoy them. All of these guys who so many of us have been ridiculed for enjoying outside of the WWE product, are now becoming the biggest stars inside the WWE. That means something. That validation is important and gives merit to the companies and talent all over the world who could one day fuel the WWE roster.
I can see the argument for wanting guys to stick around if there is more for them to do, but you have to ask yourself, what's left? I look at a guy like Adam Cole, who could have conceivably left for WWE two and a half years ago. We wouldn't have gotten those Jay Briscoe matches, we wouldn't have gotten Mount Rushmore or the Kingdom, I wouldn't have seen those two matches from War of the Worlds, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to see them revisit the Future Shock feud. But now? Now Mount Rushmore is over, now the Kingdom is over, now the Bullet Clubs time in ROH is done and I won't be seeing anymore AJ Styles vs Adam Cole matches... unless of course it happens in WWE, BAYBAY!
Listen, Seth Rollins likely isn't ever going to have a match like he had with Davey at DBD8. But you know what, he's already had a half dozen classics with Dean Ambrose, he had an incredible match with John Cena and Brock Lesnar at Royal Rumble, the best match in WWE of 2015 imo, he won the WWE Title in the main event of WrestleMania in front of 76,000 people, and he got to wrestle Sting for the WWE Title, a guy who he dressed up as for Halloween when he was a kid. I mean that's not a movie Seth Rollins can make at IFC, this is a Buena Vista production. Nothing Rollins was ever going to do in Ring of Honor was ever going to compare to what he did at WrestleMania 31, period.
I'm onboard with the idea that WWE limits pro wrestling. They work a far more conservative style of matches that have a formula that appeases a more simple type of fan. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but what I mean is a fan who hasn't seen everything under the sun and can still buy into punch, kick, finisher. I saw Warrior vs Hogan, Bret vs Shawn, I was there when the NWO formed and when Sting became the hottest star in wrestling, I was there when DX started telling everyone to suck it, and when Austin drank his way to the top, and I was there when WCW folded, when we got Invasions, we saw the rise of a new wave of wrestlers like Brock, Eddie, Benoit, and Angle, and I was there when Cena became the next Hulk Hogan, and when Edge finally broke through the ceiling, and when CM Punk dropped a pipe bomb on the industry as a whole. I've seen 25 years of wrestling and at some point, you get sick of seeing WWE do what WWE does, which is why I absolutely love places like TNA, PWG, NJPW and ROH.
The only reason I even know who AJ Styles is right now is because WWE bought WCW. That led me to watching World Wrestling All-Stars, which led me to TNA, which opened up a whole new world for me as a wrestling fan. I've kind of run off on a tangent here, but I'll try and wrap this up. WWE has a global reach. If I am a fan of guy, I want that guy to have as much success as humanly possible. The only company that gives you global recognition is WWE. Nobody is a bigger star than Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin. Austin had great matches in WCW, Hogan was great in Japan, but it was WWE that made those guys a household brand. There is only one place to make a film like Star Wars in the wrestling business and that's in WWE.
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Post by marino13 on Jan 28, 2016 9:52:56 GMT -5
Simple for me, I don't think WWE is as bad as many paint it out to be. I don't agree with everything they do, but I don't take it personal like others appear to. If I can watch 3-4 competitive matches in a night, then ten minutes stuttering promo isn't going to ruin the show for me. So I want all the best to be in WWE. To me it's the All-Star game each week.
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Post by JC Motors on Jan 28, 2016 10:55:26 GMT -5
I thought this was about WWE Studios films
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Post by Next Manufactured’s Sweater on Jan 28, 2016 13:32:58 GMT -5
Because it's the only real studio in town.
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Post by King Bálor (CM)™ on Jan 29, 2016 1:47:16 GMT -5
I think OP raises fantastic points. I agree with the OP for the most part. I am hopeful for these guys, but seriously have concern. Aries, in NXT, will not initially have this issue. I think NXT understands how to use their talent. Is there anyone in NXT that is not positioned where they should be? Cant say the same about the main roster. A LOT of great talents are positioned and used VERY poorly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 2:35:43 GMT -5
Fantastic thread idea Phil, and you're right - why would we support a promotion/studio that has a history of not capitalising on the incredible talent they have? The answer is WWE as a whole; not only is it the biggest wrestling promotion in the world, it is a global brand, a publically traded company...and with avenues of revenue not solely limited to what happens between the ropes. Their influence, being ostensibly the 'only game in town' and the belief that all aspiring young kids wanting to wrestle HAVE TO make it to the WWE, wrestle at Madison Square Garden and have a main event at WrestleMania be the zenith of their careers. In 2016, wanting a bigger platform for the likes of Zack Sabre Jr, Katsuhiko Nakajima and talents of their ilk is unfortunately not conducive to how the wrestling business works, especially in the US...the impetus is money, and while talents from American independents like previously mentioned in other posts have shown that the wrestling skill they have serves as base for the other facets of the business to be applied to, like charisma, interview skills, etc....for some talents, it's not a huge obstacle, as they work around it (i.e Asuka avoiding promos, etc) The WWE owning the massive video library as well, rights to names and having sway in Hollywood (by having celebrities appear on their programming) is another facet of the 'carpet-bomb' approach - as a global brand with extensive worldwide tours and fingers in several pies, professional wrestling (in the layman's eyes) 'evolved' into 'sports entertainment', where anything that ISN'T what WWE is, with production values and so on, is seen as small-time....much like the 'home movies' vs 'Buena Vista' analogy. To hit it even further, here on WF, we have a Text Fed Board, a Sims Board and a Fantasy Booking Board. I have a creation on two of these three boards. It is 100% wholly original, and I mean as original as you know me to be. (I'm not here to shill, by the way). Efforts by posters in these three boards that use existing WWE talent in their writing get more replies compared to someone who does a New Japan sim, a WCW-based Fantasy Booking or indeed, this humble writer's 'crazy and wacky out-there' efforts because of how well-known the WWE characters are. It is only a matter of time before the talents that once tried to revive the authentic hard-hitting professional wrestling style realise that it is something they cannot continue, especially at the pace they're going, so they get in touch with WWE or hope that WWE gets in touch with them. I'd also like to say that punksnotdead's answer was fantastic. Well done to you, sir.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 15:16:42 GMT -5
Since I will only ever will watch WWF-WWE, I hope they always get new talent. I had never even heard of the Giant or jericho before they joined wwf. I will never watch another promotion. never. I was faithful to the WWF when I saw WM3 live while clutching my LJN Hulk Hogan at 15 and I will still be.
The only way an indy darling will ever have me see their work is if they join the federation.
I definitely think wrestlers who never join never make it to the big time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 15:44:11 GMT -5
Since I will only ever will watch WWF-WWE, I hope they always get new talent. I had never even heard of the Giant or jericho before they joined wwf. I will never watch another promotion. never. I was faithful to the WWF when I saw WM3 live while clutching my LJN Hulk Hogan at 15 and I will still be. The only way an indy darling will ever have me see their work is if they join the federation. I definitely think wrestlers who never join never make it to the big time. This is the most close minded opinion I've ever read on these forums. Glad that there's tons of talent out there that you've deprived yourself from. As for the original question, it's simple... Fans hope that with the signing of these talents, that the "powers that be" are finally seeing what we have/have wanted for YEARS and are finally taking the steps toward better the product for WRESTLING fans.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 16:41:16 GMT -5
Since I will only ever will watch WWF-WWE, I hope they always get new talent. I had never even heard of the Giant or jericho before they joined wwf. I will never watch another promotion. never. I was faithful to the WWF when I saw WM3 live while clutching my LJN Hulk Hogan at 15 and I will still be. The only way an indy darling will ever have me see their work is if they join the federation. I definitely think wrestlers who never join never make it to the big time. This is the most close minded opinion I've ever read on these forums. Glad that there's tons of talent out there that you've deprived yourself from. As for the original question, it's simple... Fans hope that with the signing of these talents, that the "powers that be" are finally seeing what we have/have wanted for YEARS and are finally taking the steps toward better the product for WRESTLING fans. You know what though? It really doesn´t affect you. I would not lose sleep over it. I have said over and over I am not a wrestling fan. Only a WWF fan.
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Jan 29, 2016 17:22:57 GMT -5
Well, in the case of AJ Styles, he's done everything he can do outside of WWE. Now, when he's at the absolute top of his game as a total package performer, he's in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world. I could really argue the same for Aries and Joe, who aren't getting main roster treatment but have still done it all in ROH and TNA. It solidifies those names. It gives credence to those guys as performers. AJ Styles was always that guy that fans loved unconditionally that everyone outside of the TNA fanbase, and more recently the ROH/NJPW fanbase, said could never be in WWE, and look how wrong those people are right now. That makes me happy. Sure, it's a petty belief, but AJ deserves every bit of this run, and I've already seen him wrestle everyone under the sun outside of WWE. The world we live in now is vastly different than the world just a few years ago. CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Seth Rollins. We have Cesaro, Ambrose, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, Finn Balor, Apollo Crews, and all of these guys are making a difference, and the fans enjoy them. All of these guys who so many of us have been ridiculed for enjoying outside of the WWE product, are now becoming the biggest stars inside the WWE. That means something. That validation is important and gives merit to the companies and talent all over the world who could one day fuel the WWE roster. I can see the argument for wanting guys to stick around if there is more for them to do, but you have to ask yourself, what's left? I look at a guy like Adam Cole, who could have conceivably left for WWE two and a half years ago. We wouldn't have gotten those Jay Briscoe matches, we wouldn't have gotten Mount Rushmore or the Kingdom, I wouldn't have seen those two matches from War of the Worlds, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to see them revisit the Future Shock feud. But now? Now Mount Rushmore is over, now the Kingdom is over, now the Bullet Clubs time in ROH is done and I won't be seeing anymore AJ Styles vs Adam Cole matches... unless of course it happens in WWE, BAYBAY! Listen, Seth Rollins likely isn't ever going to have a match like he had with Davey at DBD8. But you know what, he's already had a half dozen classics with Dean Ambrose, he had an incredible match with John Cena and Brock Lesnar at Royal Rumble, the best match in WWE of 2015 imo, he won the WWE Title in the main event of WrestleMania in front of 76,000 people, and he got to wrestle Sting for the WWE Title, a guy who he dressed up as for Halloween when he was a kid. I mean that's not a movie Seth Rollins can make at IFC, this is a Buena Vista production. Nothing Rollins was ever going to do in Ring of Honor was ever going to compare to what he did at WrestleMania 31, period. I'm onboard with the idea that WWE limits pro wrestling. They work a far more conservative style of matches that have a formula that appeases a more simple type of fan. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but what I mean is a fan who hasn't seen everything under the sun and can still buy into punch, kick, finisher. I saw Warrior vs Hogan, Bret vs Shawn, I was there when the NWO formed and when Sting became the hottest star in wrestling, I was there when DX started telling everyone to suck it, and when Austin drank his way to the top, and I was there when WCW folded, when we got Invasions, we saw the rise of a new wave of wrestlers like Brock, Eddie, Benoit, and Angle, and I was there when Cena became the next Hulk Hogan, and when Edge finally broke through the ceiling, and when CM Punk dropped a pipe bomb on the industry as a whole. I've seen 25 years of wrestling and at some point, you get sick of seeing WWE do what WWE does, which is why I absolutely love places like TNA, PWG, NJPW and ROH. The only reason I even know who AJ Styles is right now is because WWE bought WCW. That led me to watching World Wrestling All-Stars, which led me to TNA, which opened up a whole new world for me as a wrestling fan. I've kind of run off on a tangent here, but I'll try and wrap this up. WWE has a global reach. If I am a fan of guy, I want that guy to have as much success as humanly possible. The only company that gives you global recognition is WWE. Nobody is a bigger star than Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin. Austin had great matches in WCW, Hogan was great in Japan, but it was WWE that made those guys a household brand. There is only one place to make a film like Star Wars in the wrestling business and that's in WWE. What a fantastic answer dude. I can't even say anything because you pretty much knocked it out of the park.
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Post by theMOESIAH on Jan 29, 2016 19:51:15 GMT -5
I'm happy for them because they will get massive paydays and their price on the indies wI'll rise once they are released. I also like that they are being exposed to an audience who largely has no idea who they are and never would have seen them otherwise (This mostly applies to Nakamura, assuming that he makes it to the main roster.) For the most part I enjoy the shows, I understand why they book guys a certain way, some people either refuse to believe or are too stupid to see. People act like WWE really dont know what they're doing, but you dont get to be the only horse in town by being clueless stupid. They got to be the only game in town by being the best, and let's face it, by ripping off ECW. Vince McMahon and the WWF didn't win the Monday Night Wars, Paul Heyman and ECW won for him.
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Miztery
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Post by Miztery on Jan 29, 2016 23:06:36 GMT -5
It's not always Vince's fault when a superstar flops. Sometimes guys have difficulty adapting to the WWE style. Whether people like it or not, WWE has a certain way they want their wrestlers to perform just like any other company. First off, I don't think they'll ruin Styles. He'll have a nice couple years in the upper mid card and retire with a mid card title or two. He doesn't need to be world champion for it to be a success. As for guys like Nakamura, I think he will fail in WWE and it won't be because of Vince. Let me tell you why. As I mentioned before, WWE has their own style and they shouldn't adapt for anyone. Nakamura is a great wrestler, but he isn't familiar with the WWE style of wrestling. He is unique in large part to his strong style moveset. He may as well throw a lot of that out because in WWE that isn't happening. He's a very gifted performer so I'm not concerned about him learning the WWE style, but it will take time for him to adjust so don't scream if he isn't being pushed from day one.
What I am concerned about is he won't be able to cut promos as his english simply isn't good enough. In WWE more so than anywhere else, you're ability to tell a story outside of the ring is vital. This is the exact reason guys like Neville(And Itami soon enough) can't get a push. Despite being fluent in english, his accent makes him hard to understand. Nakamura isn't fluent in english and he'll have an accent. Only a small group of guys have ever overcame not being at least serviceable on the mic. All I'm saying is, don't auto blame Vince. He has his standards and if guys can't adapt well enough then that's not his problem. Would you date someone who doesn't meet very many of your standards? The answer is probably no 99% of the time. I'll admit that Vince has become a massive liability to the future of the company but he's not at fault for everything. With that being said, I hope all the new guys work out because they are great at what they do and can add something to the product.
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