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Post by greenjack1992 on Mar 12, 2016 14:28:42 GMT -5
So, I'm sitting here reading Aries' interview on WWE.com and thinking how surreal it is to see him in WWE. It's got me thinking about some of the awesome indy talent that's been signed recently and some of the fantastic NXT talent that's been showcased on the main roster in the last few years, and how some of them just get it right straight out of the gate, and others are just doomed to failure.
My question to you is: what's the difference from one talent to the next?
Look at someone like Kevin Owens. Stayed in NXT for, what, nine months? Absolutely set the world on fire with his debut on both NXT and Raw/PPV. He's now attained and maintained a steady spot in the upper mid card with great Intercontinental Title reigns.
Then we look at someone like Bo Dallas. He was New Day, before New Day was New Day, is a solid worker in the ring, really invested in his gimmick and is great at rubbing the audience up the wrong way. Yet, from the outset, he's been treated like a total nobody.
There are many others to consider: The Ascension, Tyler Breeze, [Adrian] Neville, Adam Rose and Emma who were all dropped the second they were picked up.
What is so different about Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns, Big E, Xavier Woods, Bray Wyatt, Luke Harper (including him as an individual because he was pushed when the Family broke up), Becky Lynch, Charlotte, Sasha Banks, Paige, Kalisto and [Alexander] Rusev who have all been treated like stars?
Surely the long list of successful NXT guys can't be separated from the short list of failing/failed NXT guys still on the main roster by that many factors, so what is it? Does Vince love guys like Kevin Owens? Hell no. So why is he in such a great spot, and why is Sami Zayn being allowed to share that spot with him? It's the same as with Punk and Danielson. What made them so different from any other countless wrestlers who could have been in their position?
The reason I ask, is because I want to know if someone like Finn Balor, Austin Aries, Hideo Itami, Shinsuke Nakamura, Samoa Joe, Bayley, Alexa Bliss, Asuka, Apollo Crews, American Alpha, Enzo and Big Cass will fall on the right side of that line. What is the difference between the talents who make it and the talents who don't?
What's the difference?
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Deleted
Joined on: May 19, 2024 9:58:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 15:14:47 GMT -5
To be honest, unless the fans force their hand like they did with Daniel Bryan, corporate WWE decides the difference. Right or wrong in their decisions, we know they make them.
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Post by LtD73 on Mar 12, 2016 15:31:59 GMT -5
Only way I see it is not everyone can be a top guy, everyone can't come in with the impact of Kevin Owens, some guys are unfortunately there to be a good hand/low card guys and nothing more.
Part of me blames it on the writers, and yeah another comparison to the attitude era, but back then everyone had a storyline to get behind, from The Rock and Austin down to the job squad and kaientai it was something to get behind, no reason they can't give everyone a storyline, they have 4 shows. Part of the reason I'm behind the brand split so guys like you mentioned Ascension/Breeze/Neville they're too good to be jobbing out to Titus on main event, brand split and let them tear it up on Smackdown.
I partly blame it on NXT crowd at full sail, they see the guys every week, they're invested, they make these guys look like superstars, but doing that they're not letting WWE truly know what reaction they can get, someone like Tye Dillinger is getting pretty over in NXT, I don't see him being half as over when he comes over. Enzo and Cass I wonder about will they get over or is it just the NXT crowd, I've read reports that WWE are hesitating bringing Bayley up just incase she doesn't get the reactions she gets from NXT and flops
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Post by bad guy™ on Mar 12, 2016 15:42:29 GMT -5
It's the NXT crowd. It's easier to get over with 1,000 people than 17,000. Someone like Bo could get over in an intimate setting but not in a major set up. However Owens has that appeal to all audiences as the bunghole Canadian, plus people knew him long before he got to WWE.
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Post by ZDB on Mar 12, 2016 16:06:01 GMT -5
It's the NXT crowd. It's easier to get over with 1,000 people than 17,000. Someone like Bo could get over in an intimate setting but not in a major set up. However Owens has that appeal to all audiences as the bunghole Canadian, plus people knew him long before he got to WWE. Every one from NXT was over at NXT Brooklyn [roughly 15,000 people] I understand that's an NXT audience pretty much, but still proves it's not just the same 200 people at Full Sail every week
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Post by bad guy™ on Mar 12, 2016 16:15:02 GMT -5
It's the NXT crowd. It's easier to get over with 1,000 people than 17,000. Someone like Bo could get over in an intimate setting but not in a major set up. However Owens has that appeal to all audiences as the bunghole Canadian, plus people knew him long before he got to WWE. Every one from NXT was over at NXT Brooklyn [roughly 15,000 people] I understand that's an NXT audience pretty much, but still proves it's not just the same 200 people at Full Sail every week You proved my point. It's still an NXT crowd. I'm sure a good portion of RAW/SmackDown goers don't watch NXT, so even with the big crowd they drew in Brooklyn, my point still stands.
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Post by ZDB on Mar 12, 2016 16:18:09 GMT -5
Every one from NXT was over at NXT Brooklyn [roughly 15,000 people] I understand that's an NXT audience pretty much, but still proves it's not just the same 200 people at Full Sail every week You proved my point. It's still an NXT crowd. I'm sure a good portion of RAW/SmackDown goers don't watch NXT, so even with the big crowd they drew in Brooklyn, my point still stands. Still shows it wasn't hard for them to sell out a stadium in a completely different market
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Post by bad guy™ on Mar 12, 2016 16:22:31 GMT -5
You proved my point. It's still an NXT crowd. I'm sure a good portion of RAW/SmackDown goers don't watch NXT, so even with the big crowd they drew in Brooklyn, my point still stands. Still shows it wasn't hard for them to sell out a stadium in a completely different market No but take the diehard NXT fans out and put the general casual RAW/SD attendees in and I guarantee they just crap on the show because most of the NXT guys just don't appeal to the main roster market.
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Post by Rob on Mar 12, 2016 16:25:31 GMT -5
The difference? Look at The Shield who debuted and instantly shot to the top of the card. Look at Kevin Owens who came in and beat Cena clean in his debut. Paige who won the Divas title in her first main roster appearance, Wyatts who also came in and instantly shot to the upper midcard. Then you look at Tyler Breeze, Debuted on Smackdown with no introduction and proceeding to have everything that made him what he was stripped away in weeks. Bo Dallas who came in and wandered the lower mid card with no real introduction. Emma who randomly came in and paired with Santino. All these guys/girls came in and beat up jobbers weekly and the fans just didnt give a . Something they are doing right with Sami Zayns main roster transition, He was brought in with a purpose. He entered a heated feud from the start. Thats how you debut someone. If he wouldve came to Raw, had a squash match with a jobber, I wouldve been real scared for him.
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Post by ~ Cymru ~ on Mar 12, 2016 16:44:08 GMT -5
Kevin Owens made you take notice, he beat THE MAN in the business right now. He jumped straight up in there with one of the top dogs. I'm not saying NXT have to debut against Cena, but guys like Rollins, and Orton, Reigns, Ambrose, Owens or current champions etc Breeze debut was against Ziggler? who hasnt done anything in ages, and we're expected to care?
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Deleted
Joined on: May 19, 2024 9:58:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 16:51:16 GMT -5
What's the difference between me and you?
You talk a good one, but you don't do what you supposed to do.
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Post by #DI-WHY? on Mar 12, 2016 17:07:49 GMT -5
I'd say it's about sales but Dean Ambrose was beating John Cena in sales and in 2014, and has he been a WWEWHC champ yet?
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Post by greenjack1992 on Mar 12, 2016 17:37:01 GMT -5
Yes, it's up to WWE's higher ups who is worth a damn and who isn't, and we've all agreed that the decision is made completely arbitratily. But, my question is, what motivates those decisions?
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Post by LtD73 on Mar 12, 2016 18:02:42 GMT -5
I'd say it's about sales but Dean Ambrose was beating John Cena in sales and in 2014, and has he been a WWEWHC champ yet? For a minute..... Kinda......no......LET ME COUNT IT
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Post by Next Man’s Yeeter on Mar 12, 2016 18:13:35 GMT -5
Essentially, it depends on either Vince's perception of you or whether one of the writers is willing to go to bat for you. There's also a danger in debuting with a weakling type gimmick (eg Bo, Rose, Tyler, Fandango etc) that it can turn into a jobber role very fast if nobody is supporting you in the creative meetings and the writers get bored of you. Those kind of characters really need creative attention, because in the WWE landscape of 50/50 overlong pointless rematches, they don't make the cut. Their characters are comedy wimps so they just lose matches and do nothing else. The Social Outcasts is a great gimmick because it gives them some substance again, even when they lose. I think with the Ascension, Vince realised right as they debuted that they're just a bad LoD rip-off and they were dead in the water. It certainly seems that debuting someone with a strong angle is the best way to go. Shield, Owens, Styles. But Neville has still never really had a storyline (unless 200 rematches with Stardust counts) and he's positioned decently. I'd say it's about sales but Dean Ambrose was beating John Cena in sales and in 2014, and has he been a WWEWHC champ yet? Do you seriously think Dean Ambrose was selling more merchandise than John Cena in 2014? Is this just a weird thing you've made up in your mind, or were you misinterpreting the time that an Ambrose item was the hot seller in one of the WWEShop flash sales? Ambrose has never even been the #2 merch seller yet (although the Shield were challenging Bryan for #2 for a bit), let alone #1.
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Post by #DI-WHY? on Mar 12, 2016 18:38:57 GMT -5
Essentially, it depends on either Vince's perception of you or whether one of the writers is willing to go to bat for you. There's also a danger in debuting with a weakling type gimmick (eg Bo, Rose, Tyler, Fandango etc) that it can turn into a jobber role very fast if nobody is supporting you in the creative meetings and the writers get bored of you. Those kind of characters really need creative attention, because in the WWE landscape of 50/50 overlong pointless rematches, they don't make the cut. Their characters are comedy wimps so they just lose matches and do nothing else. The Social Outcasts is a great gimmick because it gives them some substance again, even when they lose. I think with the Ascension, Vince realised right as they debuted that they're just a bad LoD rip-off and they were dead in the water. It certainly seems that debuting someone with a strong angle is the best way to go. Shield, Owens, Styles. But Neville has still never really had a storyline (unless 200 rematches with Stardust counts) and he's positioned decently. I'd say it's about sales but Dean Ambrose was beating John Cena in sales and in 2014, and has he been a WWEWHC champ yet? Do you seriously think Dean Ambrose was selling more merchandise than John Cena in 2014? Is this just a weird thing you've made up in your mind, or were you misinterpreting the time that an Ambrose item was the hot seller in one of the WWEShop flash sales? Ambrose has never even been the #2 merch seller yet (although the Shield were challenging Bryan for #2 for a bit), let alone #1. No, that's a fact. I did mean to say 2015, but still, he did.
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Post by Rob on Mar 12, 2016 18:53:03 GMT -5
What's the difference between me and you? You talk a good one, but you don't do what you supposed to do. Hold up, Stop the beat a minute, i got something to say. I want to tell this crap right now while this ing weed is in me. I dont know if i ever told you this but i love you dog.
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Post by Next Man’s Yeeter on Mar 12, 2016 18:54:10 GMT -5
No, that's a fact. I did mean to say 2015, but still, he did. Have you genuinely convinced yourself that Dean Ambrose sold more merchandise than John Cena in 2015?
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Post by Irish Wrestling Entertainment on Mar 12, 2016 18:56:03 GMT -5
The main roster and the booking that surrounds it is in a period of total stagnation and has been for about a decade. These guys need to hope that they don't get dragged into the stagnation of pointless TV matches and no mic time that almost everyone else has been in for years.
The reason they're over in NXT? This stagnation doesn't exist in the booking.. and the performers have freedom to operate knowing that each action will build their character and not be forgotten about by the next week.
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Post by #DI-WHY? on Mar 12, 2016 19:21:45 GMT -5
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