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Post by TheLastDude on Mar 18, 2016 18:14:00 GMT -5
You can say what you want about Bret, but the business is in his blood. I doubt he would have ever even entertained the notion of doing something so crapty just to pop the ratings needle a tiny bit.
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ellisd
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Post by ellisd on Mar 19, 2016 0:21:16 GMT -5
You're taking this way too far in that dude. Lowest point? You must be thinking if Diesel. The biggest PPV of the year in which Shawn and Diesel were both champions (SummerSlam) saw Shawn drawing less than Diesel. . I always find it funny when people try to point out that business was down during Shawn's run on top. Let's use SummerSlam as an example since its the show you mentioned. Diesel did draw more in 1995 than Shawn did in 1996. But Diesel (the champion for the majority of 1995), Razor (another top star, and one of the top contenders for the Intercontinental Title), and Bret Hart (the top star from the New Generation) were all absent for months by the time SummerSlam 1996 rolled around. So as far as established main event stars go, you only had Shawn and Taker. Vader and Mankind were there, but both fairly new to the company, and Austin and Triple H hadn't reached that level yet. So yes Shawn was champion during this low period of business but it needs to be mentioned that , other than Taker, the 3 other biggest names were gone. I'm sure that had an effect on viewership. But in response to the OP's question..... I think the screwjob was a result of Vince's paranoia. He had seen his Women's Championship thrown in the trash on live tv and he knew how big of a blow it would have been if they did the same with the WWF Title. Was it the morally right decision? No...not at all. But I feel that Vince would do anything to save his company. Would Bret have done it? Bret doesn't seem like the person that would, so I'm gonna say Bret wouldn't. But that being said, it's amazing what people will do for money and Bischoff had a lot ( a LOT) of money at his disposal. And whether Bret could have been bought, I can't say for sure. But I do feel that that is the mindset that made Vince decide on the screwjob. In Vince's mind, he couldn't risk it.
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 19, 2016 7:28:45 GMT -5
The biggest PPV of the year in which Shawn and Diesel were both champions (SummerSlam) saw Shawn drawing less than Diesel. . I always find it funny when people try to point out that business was down during Shawn's run on top. Let's use SummerSlam as an example since its the show you mentioned. Diesel did draw more in 1995 than Shawn did in 1996. But Diesel (the champion for the majority of 1995), Razor (another top star, and one of the top contenders for the Intercontinental Title), and Bret Hart (the top star from the New Generation) were all absent for months by the time SummerSlam 1996 rolled around. So as far as established main event stars go, you only had Shawn and Taker. Vader and Mankind were there, but both fairly new to the company, and Austin and Triple H hadn't reached that level yet. So yes Shawn was champion during this low period of business but it needs to be mentioned that , other than Taker, the 3 other biggest names were gone. I'm sure that had an effect on viewership. But in response to the OP's question..... I think the screwjob was a result of Vince's paranoia. He had seen his Women's Championship thrown in the trash on live tv and he knew how big of a blow it would have been if they did the same with the WWF Title. Was it the morally right decision? No...not at all. But I feel that Vince would do anything to save his company. Would Bret have done it? Bret doesn't seem like the person that would, so I'm gonna say Bret wouldn't. But that being said, it's amazing what people will do for money and Bischoff had a lot ( a LOT) of money at his disposal. And whether Bret could have been bought, I can't say for sure. But I do feel that that is the mindset that made Vince decide on the screwjob. In Vince's mind, he couldn't risk it. Shawn was getting mixed reactions big time by SummerSlam, and by Survivor Series they treated him like Reigns. It was like a preview of Cena and Reigns. Diehard fans wanted Shawn heel and only women and kids liked his uber-face gimmick. I wouldn't blame the other top guys being gone and the nwo as the only reason for the ratings decline. Fans weren't unanimously behind Shawn at the time.
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Post by cordless2016 on Mar 19, 2016 7:31:43 GMT -5
You don't have to repeat yourself. Are you telling me that if Vince asked him to go and lie in the ring so Shawn could take a dump on his mouth that he should do it? Bret was, if anything selfless in his refusal to put Shawn over. Shawn had already just lead WWE to its lowest point in possibly history when he was champion, the problem: REFUSING TO WORK WITH AND PUT OTHER PEOPLE OVER. You make it sound like Bret wasn't being reasonable, when he was trying his best to find a way around the problem.You're taking this way too far in that dude. Lowest point? You must be thinking if Diesel. If Vince asked him to drop the belt to Shawn at Survivor Series then that's what he should've done. I said nothing about anyone defecating on another so.. And I don't know if you've read or seen much on the subject but there are a lot of people that say Michaels help hold the WWF together in 96. And not Joe Blow, people who actually worked for WWF at the time. Vince was the owner. He wrote the checks. He gave Bret his first big break. Bret was leaving anyway. If he was so loyal and such a company man, he would've said "Yes sir. I'll drop the belt to Shawn at Survivor Series." Instead, he got himself screwed and has spent the last twenty years being one of the most bitter people I've listened to in the wrestling business. I'm done here. Have a good'n Mandkind/Taker held the WWF together during '96 until Bret came back to take on Austin. The best months viewership rise were January-March when Bret was champ, and by SummerSlam Shawn was getting big-time mixed reactions. It was like a preview to Cena 10 years later, only now fans seem to legitimately love doing the dueling Cena chants. The half of the crowd the boo'd Shawn legitimately hated him.
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ellisd
Main Eventer
Joined on: May 26, 2009 0:30:49 GMT -5
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Post by ellisd on Mar 19, 2016 9:12:28 GMT -5
I always find it funny when people try to point out that business was down during Shawn's run on top. Let's use SummerSlam as an example since its the show you mentioned. Diesel did draw more in 1995 than Shawn did in 1996. But Diesel (the champion for the majority of 1995), Razor (another top star, and one of the top contenders for the Intercontinental Title), and Bret Hart (the top star from the New Generation) were all absent for months by the time SummerSlam 1996 rolled around. So as far as established main event stars go, you only had Shawn and Taker. Vader and Mankind were there, but both fairly new to the company, and Austin and Triple H hadn't reached that level yet. So yes Shawn was champion during this low period of business but it needs to be mentioned that , other than Taker, the 3 other biggest names were gone. I'm sure that had an effect on viewership. But in response to the OP's question..... I think the screwjob was a result of Vince's paranoia. He had seen his Women's Championship thrown in the trash on live tv and he knew how big of a blow it would have been if they did the same with the WWF Title. Was it the morally right decision? No...not at all. But I feel that Vince would do anything to save his company. Would Bret have done it? Bret doesn't seem like the person that would, so I'm gonna say Bret wouldn't. But that being said, it's amazing what people will do for money and Bischoff had a lot ( a LOT) of money at his disposal. And whether Bret could have been bought, I can't say for sure. But I do feel that that is the mindset that made Vince decide on the screwjob. In Vince's mind, he couldn't risk it. Shawn was getting mixed reactions big time by SummerSlam, and by Survivor Series they treated him like Reigns. It was like a preview of Cena and Reigns. Diehard fans wanted Shawn heel and only women and kids liked his uber-face gimmick. I wouldn't blame the other top guys being gone and the nwo as the only reason for the ratings decline. Fans weren't unanimously behind Shawn at the time. I'm not saying that the blame falls solely on the guys being gone,but being that it was 3 of WWF's top guys that were gone (leaving only 2 WWF established main eventers) and the only hot angle that WCW had was going on at this time, I'm sure that had something to do with it. I'm sure the blame doesn't fall solely on Shawn's shoulders. I liked Shawn during this time period. Regardless of his behind the scenes attitude, which I didn't know of at the time, he was great in the ring. Shawn has always played a better heel, but I didn't hate his face run. But this is straying from the OP's topic and I don't wanna argue.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Mar 19, 2016 13:41:19 GMT -5
Bret would never have done something like that. All Bret cared about was wrestling. He was never a fan of kayfabe or storylines so he was never have entertained the thought of taking the belt to WCW.
If that was Vince's reason for the screw job then that makes him a fool.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 14:05:19 GMT -5
Bret would never have done something like that. All Bret cared about was wrestling. He was never a fan of kayfabe or storylines so he was never have entertained the thought of taking the belt to WCW.
If that was Vince's reason for the screw job then that makes him a fool.
I believe WCW tried to get him to bring the IC belt with him in 1992 as revenge for Flair showing up with the WCW belt in 1991. This might have been part of the thinking here if that is in fact the case.
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Sandman
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Post by Sandman on Mar 19, 2016 15:56:00 GMT -5
What I believe would happen is if Bret actually won the match at Survivor Series, straight after he would get in his car & take the belt with him, drive off millions of miles away & into some desert out in the middle of nowhere, grab a shovel & literally BURY the title belt like he buries everyone else in interviews, perhaps he'd also bury a smashing portrait of Shawn Michaels flashing an arrogant smirk along with it..
When it's all said & done Bret would awkwardly smile afterwards, from what I've seen of Bret he never really shows any emotion, he's always got that Lincoln Burrows from Prison Break "can't be faked" look on his face & that's what makes the smile that much more "awkward"..
To be honest though I don't think Bret would, he prides himself, is a hero to Canada & has too much integrity to do something like that. I just don't think he has that sort of character in him to take the belt to WCW.. what would the people of Canada think?.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 21:06:26 GMT -5
They were still in the middle of a lawsuit over the women's championship NO WAY eric let's him show up on t.v with belt Yep. They didn't want to be entangled in more legal troubles. They've all said this...10 years after the fact. There's no ing doubt, at that point in time, it definitely would've happened. Then they'd all piss and sob about it on documentaries, instead of pulling the "we did something right once" card.
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Post by PJ on Mar 23, 2016 6:07:17 GMT -5
There's just no. Way it would have happened. Bret grew up in the business. There is no way I see him disrespecting the business or the Hart name like that.
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RV F'N D
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Post by RV F'N D on Mar 25, 2016 11:19:22 GMT -5
Flair did it, so I wouldn't put it past anybody.
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Post by PJ on Mar 25, 2016 17:08:03 GMT -5
Flair did it, so I wouldn't put it past anybody. As much as I like Flair that means absolutely nothing.
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RV F'N D
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Post by RV F'N D on Mar 25, 2016 18:38:48 GMT -5
Flair did it, so I wouldn't put it past anybody. As much as I like Flair that means absolutely nothing. I'm a big fan of both guys, but even when you know somebody personally for a long time they can still surprise you. I think Flair respects the business too, but him bringing the big gold to WWF with him never seemed that awful to me. Bret was going through alot at that time and doing stuff that may be considered out of character for him.
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dante123
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Post by dante123 on Mar 25, 2016 19:08:46 GMT -5
As much as I like Flair that means absolutely nothing. I'm a big fan of both guys, but even when you know somebody personally for a long time they can still surprise you. I think Flair respects the business too, but him bringing the big gold to WWF with him never seemed that awful to me. Bret was going through alot at that time and doing stuff that may be considered out of character for him. Ric Flair typically owned the belt at the time because WCW didn't pay him back his deposit for the belt. So it was right for Flair to do that.
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Post by mikey1974 on Mar 27, 2016 13:59:45 GMT -5
As much as I like Flair that means absolutely nothing. I'm a big fan of both guys, but even when you know somebody personally for a long time they can still surprise you. I think Flair respects the business too, but him bringing the big gold to WWF with him never seemed that awful to me. Bret was going through alot at that time and doing stuff that may be considered out of character for him. He did that because Jim Herd and WCW screwed him out of money on the way out. When you became NWA Champion, you would put down a deposit - I think it was $25,000. This was to ensure you did business. And when it came time for you to drop the Belt, if you refused, you lost your deposit. If you did business and dropped the Belt like booked, you got your money back. What happened was, Flair was winning and losing it so much, he stopped asking for his deposit back every time he lost. in 1991, Flair and WCW/Jim Herd came to a head, and Flair decided to exit the company. He was booked to drop the Belt to Luger at the Great American Bash on his way out. about a week or so before the PPV, Herd called up Flair and said he didn't want him at the PPV, he was going to drop the title to Barry Windham at a house show that week. Flair was fine with this, he didn't care. Then a day or 2 later Herd called Flair again,told him screw himself, he wasn't having him drop it at all. He was stripping Flair of the Title, with Windham and Luger to wrestle for the vacant Championship at the PPV. Doug Dillinger (WCW head of security - in real life, not just in storylines) would be over to retrieve the Belt. Flair told Herd fine, but make sure he had a check for the $25,000 plus interest for all the times he never collected it. Herd, not so diplomatically, told Flair he could forceably shove the check up his own anus. When Flair told him he wasn't getting the Belt back without the money, Herd told Flair he could insert the Belt up there too, then hung up. so having never received his deposit back, Flair considered the Belt his to do with what he wanted,as he felt he now owned it. Flaie called up Vince the next day and said he now owned the Belt, what should h do with it? Vince had him Fed-Ex it overnight to Stamford to WWF headquarters, and the rest is history. Flair did say later on he regretted showing up with the Belt, as he felt that hurt his friends still in Atlanta.
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RV F'N D
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Post by RV F'N D on Mar 27, 2016 19:30:47 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of both guys, but even when you know somebody personally for a long time they can still surprise you. I think Flair respects the business too, but him bringing the big gold to WWF with him never seemed that awful to me. Bret was going through alot at that time and doing stuff that may be considered out of character for him. He did that because Jim Herd and WCW screwed him out of money on the way out. When you became NWA Champion, you would put down a deposit - I think it was $25,000. This was to ensure you did business. And when it came time for you to drop the Belt, if you refused, you lost your deposit. If you did business and dropped the Belt like booked, you got your money back. What happened was, Flair was winning and losing it so much, he stopped asking for his deposit back every time he lost. in 1991, Flair and WCW/Jim Herd came to a head, and Flair decided to exit the company. He was booked to drop the Belt to Luger at the Great American Bash on his way out. about a week or so before the PPV, Herd called up Flair and said he didn't want him at the PPV, he was going to drop the title to Barry Windham at a house show that week. Flair was fine with this, he didn't care. Then a day or 2 later Herd called Flair again,told him screw himself, he wasn't having him drop it at all. He was stripping Flair of the Title, with Windham and Luger to wrestle for the vacant Championship at the PPV. Doug Dillinger (WCW head of security - in real life, not just in storylines) would be over to retrieve the Belt. Flair told Herd fine, but make sure he had a check for the $25,000 plus interest for all the times he never collected it. Herd, not so diplomatically, told Flair he could forceably shove the check up his own anus. When Flair told him he wasn't getting the Belt back without the money, Herd told Flair he could insert the Belt up there too, then hung up. so having never received his deposit back, Flair considered the Belt his to do with what he wanted,as he felt he now owned it. Flaie called up Vince the next day and said he now owned the Belt, what should h do with it? Vince had him Fed-Ex it overnight to Stamford to WWF headquarters, and the rest is history. Flair did say later on he regretted showing up with the Belt, as he felt that hurt his friends still in Atlanta. I had heard the belt story before, but never the part where Flair said he regretted it later. Very interesting.
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Post by PJ on Mar 30, 2016 16:31:22 GMT -5
I had heard that before.
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savage
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Post by savage on Mar 30, 2016 19:01:21 GMT -5
I don't think Bret would have taken the belt. I believe it was more than that issue. I think Vince's concern was more about having his #1 guy hand over the title and go off to WCW. It would just make the WWF look bad, like there is no competition for him etc...
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Post by Vamp55 on Apr 1, 2016 0:30:52 GMT -5
No chance it would have made it to TV.
Pretty sure Bret has said he just didn't want to drop the title in Canada. I thought there was a plan for him to drop at a house show a couple of nights later. So the fact he walked out to SS ready to go, suggests he was good with that plan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2016 23:40:46 GMT -5
YEah Flair tells the story quite well on the Four Horsemen DVD.
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