TheBadGuyChico
POSSIBLE BAD TRADER
Joined on: Dec 3, 2012 10:34:41 GMT -5
Posts: 1,715
|
Post by TheBadGuyChico on Sept 21, 2017 11:53:35 GMT -5
One of the things i read a lot online from some of the people still watching the show (but unsatisfied with the booking) is that this is in fact the most talented roster the WWE has ever had. We're all entitled to our own opinions of course, but i'm really surprised to here people say this. Ring psychology, mic skills, and charisma, are not exactly where this generation excels above all others, so how is it totally on creative that they aren't used better?
I'm mean sure they is just a ton of room for improvement from a booking perspective, but is that going to turn this roster into larger than life figures?
I'm guessing what actually defines talent would be a big part in this discussion, and this is one hell of a roster of in ring wrestlers.
I just need some clarity on the most talent the WWF/E has ever had comments, because at various points the WWF/E has been pretty stacked!
|
|
|
Post by ahunter8056 on Sept 21, 2017 12:07:15 GMT -5
It's all about how exciting the matches are, and the talent it takes to put together an exciting match.
If you take the 80s-mid 90s for example, you had really vivid, colourful, charismatic characters, but for the most part the matches were simple and dull.
Late 90s - to mid 2000s, you had charismatic characters, who could perform better matches than their predecessors, but not as varied, vivid and colourful characters.
In the present day product, you don't really have many characters anymore. You have character traits, but all of the wrestlers are portrayed to be normal humans, rather than supernatural, superhuman, etc. However the big bonus to that is that the match quality is far higher than it ever has been. The downside is that the wrestlers are injuring themselves more often due to the increased pace and therefore increased risk. That's what makes them the most talented roster that WWE has ever had: match quality.
The thing is that the wrestling industry has really moved on from larger than life characters. In this social media age, it's not really possible for any character to have much mystique, and larger than life characters were rapidly decreasing before the introduction of social media in any case.
Of course the extremely poor talent of WWE's current creative team is at a 21st century low, which is not good at all. They operate with almost no logic at all, and WWE makes the disastrous choice to only hire people who don't watch wrestling, which completely defies all logic, and ensures that they won't be much good.
|
|
Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,101
|
Post by Hitman Bono on Sept 21, 2017 12:12:09 GMT -5
As far as smooth moves go, yeah, it's not even close.
But if NJPW's growth has shown us anything these past few years, it's that WWE's "Punch,Chop,Punch," style is very prohibiting. It's like, yeah, they have the best roster ever, but it's not like they're letting them hang it all out there every night.
SEE: Máscara Dorada
|
|
|
Post by Chip on Sept 21, 2017 12:20:26 GMT -5
well you cant expect everyone to put on 5 star classics every night either, because if the show was filled with that stuff it would truly take away from the times when we actually get it. i dont think its unreasonable to expect a higher level of ring performance from these guys nowadays though because the business has evolved. there are still superhuman like guys who do big things, etc....but there are also guys who are just awesome inside the ring and more often than not they aren't allowed to be themselves due to WWE's "restriction".....its a double-edged sword really, you dont want the talent burning themselves out every single night/week, but you also dont want to let them become boring.
however this generation has more guys who are capable of putting on amazing, entertaining matches than any previous. we've moved on from the slow build, sell your ass off, generation to high impact, high spot, pop the crowd stuff. sometimes it works great, sometimes it feels forced and unnatural. but one thing we have now, more than ever is the potential for greatness every single night
|
|
|
Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Sept 21, 2017 12:27:17 GMT -5
In ring work?? Sure!
But star power?? No way! That would be the 1992 year, when you had the who's who of sports entertainment working in the WWE then.
|
|
TheBadGuyChico
POSSIBLE BAD TRADER
Joined on: Dec 3, 2012 10:34:41 GMT -5
Posts: 1,715
|
Post by TheBadGuyChico on Sept 21, 2017 12:34:25 GMT -5
I got the fast paced thing, i got the spots galore thing, and the guy/girl next door reliability that some of these people have. I just don't think it will ever bring in the mainstream world, it's wrestler. Sports Entertainment has always been the sell, long before Vinnie coined the term.
Bruno, Hogan, Austin, Cena, they are all bigger than life. Ditto for Savage, Piper, Rock, Sting, without these types of guys it doesn't matter who good your workrate is. Work rate has never led to a boom period and it never will.
The over- glorification of the in ring abilities is part of the problem with the WWE no longer being a Network or Cable TV Juggernaut. Personality sells, looks sell, getting people emotionally invested in the pursuit of revenge or a title sell. Wrestling has always been an art form, that lived on creating human emotion. The problem with this roster is that they just are very good sport entertainers. The art of professional wrestling is pretty much dead. It's not like you can't have both, watch a Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat match and tell me the wrestling isn't great and they aren't milking the crowd too.
Alexis Bliss, Enzo Amore, Dean Ambrose, are some of the few natural entertainers i see when i do bother to check out the shows.
Again i see a lot of wrestlers but next to no entertainers. That's not exactly a winning formula. To me the WWE is an IWC circle jerk at this point.
|
|
|
Post by Codyverse: Tag Team Champion on Sept 21, 2017 12:36:36 GMT -5
In-ring, yes.
Overall star power and great characters, not even close.
|
|
TheBadGuyChico
POSSIBLE BAD TRADER
Joined on: Dec 3, 2012 10:34:41 GMT -5
Posts: 1,715
|
Post by TheBadGuyChico on Sept 21, 2017 12:38:47 GMT -5
The excuse is that better wrestling comes with less character and ability to work a crowd. Steamboat and the Rock N Roll Express had plenty of exciting fast paced matches, but they had personality and sold.
Hell the IWC has been known to crap on the Hardy's for being spot monkey, at least they know how to work the crowd. Those guys don't get enough credit, they hit their offense, get their pops, and get worked over for the big comeback. Are the highly literate technical wrestlers? Nope, but they know the art form.
|
|
|
Post by ClashOfStyles on Sept 21, 2017 12:52:47 GMT -5
In ring work?? Sure! But star power?? No way! That would be the 1992 year, when you had the who's who of sports entertainment working in the WWE then. As far as star power goes, I'd argue that 1996 was bigger than 1992. Bret, Shawn, Hall, Nash, Austin, Foley, and Taker just to name a few.
|
|
|
Post by PJ on Sept 21, 2017 13:02:00 GMT -5
Nope I don't think so. While it is probably the most athletic roster ever not many can tell a story in their matches. It is mostly just going spot to next spot with no substance in between. And for many even though they are doing these spot to the next spot matches they are even screwing that up, because it looks like they are just going through the motions like it is a practice run/walk through instead of an actual match.
|
|
|
Post by hbkbigdaddycool on Sept 21, 2017 13:12:00 GMT -5
In ring work?? Sure! But star power?? No way! That would be the 1992 year, when you had the who's who of sports entertainment working in the WWE then. As far as star power goes, I'd argue that 1996 was bigger than 1992. Bret, Shawn, Hall, Nash, Austin, Foley, and Taker just to name a few. Where as I should agree with you on this since I am a huge fan of Bret, Shawn, Hall and Nash, I feel that 1996 doesn't even come close to 1992 in terms of star power. Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Ric Flair, Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Roddy Piper, British Bulldog, LOD, Nasty Boys, Money Inc., Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Jake Roberts, Texas Tornado, Sgt. Slaughter, Hacksaw Duggan, Sid Justice, Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect, etc. Just that year in 1992 was pretty star studded. Of course that would change around October of that year, but the first 6 months at least was the cream of the crop for superstars.
|
|
|
Post by bababooey on Sept 21, 2017 13:20:34 GMT -5
It kind of boils down to what your parameters are for determining "most talented." It's really a subjective thing.
As far as athleticism goes, I'd guess this is the most talented roster. In the ring they can do just about anything.
However, I feel like the psychology isn't really there. Back in the day, the matches weren't flashy and people didn't have a ton of moves, but guys seemed to have a better feeling of where to put the moves and when to do them or not do them.
You can kind of compare it to a pitcher in baseball in a way. You can have a pitcher with a 100 mph fastball and he can strike everyone out. Then you have a guy with maybe a 91 mph fastball that will catch corners, mix in some offspeed stuff, and get a lot of ground ball outs. Who is more talented? You could easily argue that both are equally talented an valuable, just in different ways.
|
|
torriefan4life
Superstar
Joined on: Mar 9, 2012 13:27:48 GMT -5
Posts: 812
|
Post by torriefan4life on Sept 21, 2017 13:30:11 GMT -5
I think current fans like to say that because wrestling is so unpopular right now compared to what it once was, that they just want something to brag about.
I was far more entertained as a viewer watching 80's, 90's and early to mid 00's than I am now. I see the same moves performed week in and week out on current WWE, and the matches all feel like spot fests now that have clearly been rehearsed. You had a more natural flow back in the day with the in ring action, and when you would get a long technical match, it meant something. The characters they have now are all pretty dry, considering most character development is just give this person a nickname and repeat it 25 times during their match.
And back to in ring talent.....I just don't see this roster being super by any means. What do they do that is so amazing? Have 30 minute matches full of slow paced moves that any wrestler could pull off and just sprinkle in some signature moves here and there?
I just don't see it, mic skills seem to be a very big weakness to most of the current roster so they don't have a lot of talent there.
I think this is one of the weakest rosters in the history of WWE to be honest.
|
|
|
Post by Bandalero on Sept 21, 2017 13:32:16 GMT -5
As far as star power goes, I'd argue that 1996 was bigger than 1992. Bret, Shawn, Hall, Nash, Austin, Foley, and Taker just to name a few. Where as I should agree with you on this since I am a huge fan of Bret, Shawn, Hall and Nash, I feel that 1996 doesn't even come close to 1992 in terms of star power. Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Ric Flair, Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Roddy Piper, British Bulldog, LOD, Nasty Boys, Money Inc., Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Jake Roberts, Texas Tornado, Sgt. Slaughter, Hacksaw Duggan, Sid Justice, Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect, etc. Just that year in 1992 was pretty star studded. Of course that would change around October of that year, but the first 6 months at least was the cream of the crop for superstars. Pretty much Royal Rumble '92 - arguably the best Royal Rumble ever.
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Sept 21, 2017 13:32:58 GMT -5
I'd still think that around 2003/2004 was probably the most stacked roster they've ever had both technically and on a superstar basis;
Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Stone Cold, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, Triple H, Goldberg, Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Edge, Christian, Rey Mysterio, Shelton Benjamin, RVD, Jeff Hardy, Paul London, Lance Storm etc.
Nowadays has extreme potential and possibilities, but the roster split and booking seriously prevents it. There are still endless feud and match combinations you can get with;
Brock Lesnar, AJ Styles, Shinsuke Nakamura, Triple H, Kevin Owens, Finn Balor, John Cena, Randy Orton, Bobby Roode, Seth Rollins, Shane McMahon, Bray Wyatt etc
|
|
|
Post by The American Daydream on Sept 21, 2017 13:49:49 GMT -5
I'd still think that around 2003/2004 was probably the most stacked roster they've ever had both technically and on a superstar basis; Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Stone Cold, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, Triple H, Goldberg, Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Edge, Christian, Rey Mysterio, Shelton Benjamin, RVD, Jeff Hardy, Paul London, Lance Storm etc. Nowadays has extreme potential and possibilities, but the roster split and booking seriously prevents it. There are still endless feud and match combinations you can get with; Brock Lesnar, AJ Styles, Shinsuke Nakamura, Triple H, Kevin Owens, Finn Balor, John Cena, Randy Orton, Bobby Roode, Seth Rollins, Shane McMahon, Bray Wyatt etc 2003/2004 is hands down the best roster they've had concerning star power.
|
|
Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,101
|
Post by Hitman Bono on Sept 21, 2017 14:48:51 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the "You can't have a great match because HHH has to have the great match in the main event" style. That wasn't even a thing until recently (like, last 15 years). That's why, back way back when, Hogan would go on right before intermission (or right after) and let the Harts and the Bulldogs go last... Because if you don't let Bret and Dynamite and Davey go out there and show what they bring to the table, they never get over.
And I'm of the belief that if they'd let guys go out and do what they do, matches would get better and more people would start to care. Ratings would go up. Maybe it's a different world, but TNA worked this way from November 2004- September 2006 and was second only to Noah in terms of being the best company to watch. They also saw growth during that period...
So, maybe it's not just great matches? Maybe you have to get the sh tty writers out of there too, and let D'Amore book.
|
|
|
Post by BØRNS on Sept 21, 2017 14:54:04 GMT -5
I think the talent was the best in 2014-15.
|
|
Hitman Bono
Main Eventer
WF 10 Year Member
The Sunday Jeff of it all...
Joined on: Apr 2, 2002 23:16:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,101
|
Post by Hitman Bono on Sept 21, 2017 15:02:54 GMT -5
I think current fans like to say that because wrestling is so unpopular right now compared to what it once was, that they just want something to brag about. I was far more entertained as a viewer watching 80's, 90's and early to mid 00's than I am now. I see the same moves performed week in and week out on current WWE, and the matches all feel like spot fests now that have clearly been rehearsed. You had a more natural flow back in the day with the in ring action, and when you would get a long technical match, it meant something. The characters they have now are all pretty dry, considering most character development is just give this person a nickname and repeat it 25 times during their match. And back to in ring talent.....I just don't see this roster being super by any means. What do they do that is so amazing? Have 30 minute matches full of slow paced moves that any wrestler could pull off and just sprinkle in some signature moves here and there? I just don't see it, mic skills seem to be a very big weakness to most of the current roster so they don't have a lot of talent there. I think this is one of the weakest rosters in the history of WWE to be honest. That's not on the workers, that's on the agents and the company for insisting on a sh tty style that includes no more than 4 "types" of matches. Character development is also on the writing team. It's also obvious that you're jesting (trolling) with the "slow paced moves anyone could pull off". Maybe you're talking about your boy, Stroman? But I doubt Dino Bravo could do 1/10 of what Cesaro does. And you know that. Watch a freaking Claudio match from Noah or something and tell me the guy is nothing but slow paced moves with "some signatures sprinkled in"... lol jeesh man, have a little dignity when you offer up a view point. Maybe you don't *like* the characters as much today, but it's borderline libel to say that they're not as good in ring as they've ever been. As far as Star Power goes, it's really going to depend on when you were born/started watching. But I don't think it's quite right to throw Austin in with the 03-04 squad of guys, considering he worked 1 match. And not for nothing, that's a HUGE chunk out of 03's claim. Austin's the biggest ever. Austin's "star power" eclipses around 25 of the 92 Royal Rumble participants combined. So taking him away really hurts.
|
|
|
Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Sept 21, 2017 15:13:46 GMT -5
mainstream attention
|
|