koreygunz
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Post by koreygunz on Apr 12, 2018 12:20:26 GMT -5
I was in attendance at WrestleMania this year (first one ever!) and the Brock vs Roman main event was such a let down in the live crowd to end such a huge show. While I was legit surprised that Brock won, and in basically what amounted to a glorified squash match, it was almost awkward watching it as an audience member and fell very flat. In my opinion, there were a few reasons for this, and I think they encompass most of the problems with today's product.
"Super Roman" Fatigue Much like Cena, crowds are tired of seeing Roman overcome huge odds and "hulking up" at the end to win a match. We all know its a work, but I think fans still like to see a believable presentation, especially with companies like ROH and NJPW getting more exposure. Its not as much that Roman wins, its HOW he wins. At Mania, when he kicked out of an F5, and then another, and then another through a table, you could hear and feel the groan in the audience. Everyone was simply waiting for the comeback and then inevitable Superman Punch and Spear for the win- which almost happened! When Roman started his comeback, the audience was dead. Because we all (thought) we knew what the eventual outcome would be, we tuned everything else out and basically ignored the match up to that point. Everyone was just waiting for the bell so we could boo the hell out of Roman when he won. It made the previous 10-15 minutes moot. And then when Brock won? It was legit a tense crowd! People were ripping up their chairs and heading to the exits in droves. It was a nervous situation for a minute. Roman is not the guy the WWE wants him to be, and apparently, even the WWE doesn't think so either, since they have failed to pull the trigger on him twice in this situation. We have had Roman pushed down our throats for years and nothing much has changed. No way should Reigns have main evented four Manias in a row! This isnt the days of Hogan. We need variety, both in headliners and matches, and fans want to feel like their voices are being heard.
Part-Timers, and Part Time Champions On the other hand, the audience was not emotionally invested in wanting to see Roman lose, or otherwise cheer for Lesnar, because we really didn't want Lesnar to win either! Due to the internet (more on that later) and WWE's own booking, we were positioned to think Lesnar was probably leaving, or at best going to be an even more limited participant, so we were left to choose between two terrible choices. Fans are tired of not seeing their champion on TV regularly, and when we do see them in a match, it's the same routine over and over. I admit, when Lesnar first started this bit with Cena, I bought in. His PPV matches felt like big deals and you kinda wanted to see if Lesnar might go a bit too stiff or off script and really rough someone up. But that act has gotten stale. If they let Lesnar WRESTLE, maybe the fans would not turn on him as much as they have. But if we are always just going to get suplex, suplex, F5, there's nothing to get invested in, especially against an opponent we don't want to see win anyway! Now, put AJ Style or Daniel Bryan, or even Strowman, opposite of Lesnar, and that may be a different story.
The Internet I know I will sound like "get off my lawn" guy here, and I'm too young to do that, but internet reporting and "experts" may have hurt the enjoyment of wrestling more than anything else. It predisposes us to what SHOULD happen, or who we SHOULD root for, or even what we SHOULD think is wrong with wrestling today. At Mania, it was apparent everyone thought this was gonna be "Roman's Night" because that is what the internet had told us. That kept the crowd from really caring what happened at all. We weren't in favor of Lesnar, but we didn't want Roman to be "the guy," but since we felt (or better yet "knew) that that is what was going to happen, we tuned out. Looking back at it, had I not seen or heard ANY "inside info" relating to Lesnar's contract or Roman's push and just been a fan, that match wasn't that bad! I know in today's world this is nearly impossible, but it still is kind of sad that the days or being a dumb fan are gone. Sometimes it was fun to be a mark!
All in all, Brock vs Roman was a physical match that had a legit surprise ending, but it definitely did not resonate with the live crowd, and in some ways I think WWE sabotaged their own main event. They tried to position Lesnar as a guy "true fans" should hate, but the fans also are not buying Roman, and then had the heel win anyway! And without any story advancement related to Brock/Vince or Roman/Vince. Maybe Roman will peel off into a storyline with Vince, or maybe they get smart and turn Roman full heel and give Brock an opponent we want to see dethrone the Beast, like Bryan.
In the end, fans are still going to buy tickets. TV ratings will be consistent. Ad revenue will come in. WrestleMania will still be packed. But maybe the WWE will at least learn a couple things from this year. Maybe...
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Post by Triple S on Apr 12, 2018 12:31:57 GMT -5
You’re using the internet to post this. Telling us who we SHOULD like and what SHOULD happen.
I do agree with most of it. There’s a lot of issues with the current product. So many, that it’s hard to really “fix” anything. As certain ones can’t be controlled.
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koreygunz
Main Eventer
Elite Trader
287 Refs in WFClassifieds and counting
Joined on: Jun 18, 2006 15:31:49 GMT -5
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Post by koreygunz on Apr 12, 2018 12:39:19 GMT -5
You’re using the internet to post this. Telling us who we SHOULD like and what SHOULD happen. I do agree with most of it. There’s a lot of issues with the current product. So many, that it’s hard to really “fix” anything. As certain ones can’t be controlled. True- though my intent wasnt to tell you what YOU should want. This is just my opinion. I think opinions, like those posted here, can be different than someone like Dave Meltzer or a dirt sheet expert telling us what is going to happen, or why this or that person is or isnt deserving of a push, etc. Many people's opinions are formed solely through those type of publications- which is fine- its just my opinion that that is hurting the overall product because we can no longer just enjoy things as a "fan." And this is just my interpretation from being in the crowd at Mania. This was the impression I got.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Apr 12, 2018 13:14:17 GMT -5
I thought it was a good match with a shocking ending nobody predicted. If anything was bad about the match, it was the mark fans booing and doing "boring" and "this is awful" chants because they thought they knew the ending.
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Post by bigshab421 on Apr 12, 2018 13:16:58 GMT -5
I agree with most of your post, but one thing I would add as to whats wrong with the product is that it is way too overproduced and micromanaged. For the love of god, I almost vomited watching Mania when Bryan was hitting yes kicks on Zayn, they cut every half second. Also, let the guys and girls get a mic and give them points not full scripts. When wrestlers talk with emotion and it feels real, it gets me much more invested. I can tell when someone is trying to remember lines, they come off forced and silly.
The only thing I don't agree with is the internet part. I am on boards and forums all day and having inside info doesn't affect me from enjoying the shows. Quite simply Brock/Roman was a finisher filled snooze fest and had no flow. I'm not sure if Lesnar doesn't want to really wrestle anymore, or the producers are booking his matches this way, but the Styles/Brock match was probably the only good 1on1 match he has had since CM Punk at SummerSlam.
Point is, I don't care what I have read online, I know they aren't always true, and for the most part, if you can logically think it is not hard to figure out who is going to win a match. So the internet has never ruined wrestling for me personally, I feel like whoever is in charge of booking/piecing together these shows are taking away from it. WWE has such a formulaic product and template that it often times hurts itself.
Take a look at NXT & WWE side by side to see what is wrong with everything in WWE. In WWE you have: Overexposure and way too much content weekly, repetitive TV matches, 50/50 wins/losses, horribly scripted promos (sufferin' succotash anyone?), a thousand camera cuts every second, announcing that doesn't push the action to explain the story. NXT is a complete opposite, they have fierce rivalries, believable characters, smooth and focused presentation, some guys aren't wrestling the same people every week. I know its taped and only 1hr long, but still.
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Post by theoutlaw1999 on Apr 12, 2018 13:19:36 GMT -5
I was with you until you said Daniel Bryan should dethrone Brock. He has gone through Strowman, Joe, Reigns, AJ etc so realistically how could Daniel Bryan be a legitimate threat to him?
In all honesty I wouldn't care if Brock never lost the belt. It's a stupid championship so I would rather the World title be duel branded so the Raw guys can fight for something prestigious.
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Post by k5 on Apr 12, 2018 13:20:47 GMT -5
Roman just has not been properly developed, plain and simple.
I thought the monster Brock was a great idea, and I was one of his big fans even when many on this forum started growing sick of him, but as this point he is just a detriment to the product. if he never plans to wrestle like he did in his first run then he should just leave.
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Post by Lorenzo Alcazar on Apr 12, 2018 13:41:57 GMT -5
Roman just has not been properly developed, plain and simple. I thought the monster Brock was a great idea, and I was one of his big fans even when many on this forum started growing sick of him, but as this point he is just a detriment to the product. if he never plans to wrestle like he did in his first run then he should just leave. Vince caters to the casual fan. And for people who only tune in occasionally or when there is a big show, those people want to see Suplex City. They are not impressed by a 6 star match in the Tokyo Dome. Vince knows the hardcore marks are going to watch no matter what is presented to them, they'll just go bitch about it on the internet and threaten to stop watching....then still keep watching. He's already got those people pretty much no matter what. It just is what it is. It's wrestling. It's best to not try and over complicate it. People call guys like Brock, Roman, and Orton boring....I try and rationalize that their fighting style fits their characters. Orton is the "Viper", he's supposed to be slow paced and methodical, with his strikes being very deliberate and calculated...wouldn't make sense if he was flying around, right? Brock is Suplex City...he's pretty much just going to do suplexes and F5's because those are his power moves. And Roman, he's the new Hogan where he just essentially gets pummeled for the entire match and then Hulks up and comes back with Superman punches and spears. Hogan was the same way: Get beat up, Hulk up, yoooooooou punch punch punch, Irish whip big boot leg drop for the win.
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Post by The American Daydream on Apr 12, 2018 15:00:32 GMT -5
Another one of these posts? Brock is a legend and I'm glad he beat the piss out of Roman. Good for business lol.
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Post by RybackV1 on Apr 12, 2018 17:07:29 GMT -5
I feel like everyone who whined for the last year about how much they hate Roman and would do anything to have him lose at Mania
Are the exact same ones who are now whining that he lost at Mania
I don't understand people
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Post by TheSystem 1.5 on Apr 12, 2018 17:49:21 GMT -5
My take from WM night: "I'm not ok with Lesnar winning. I'm actually quite annoyed and I haven't even seen the match yet. WWE ed Joe and Strowman out of their momentums for this match and they go and out Brock over? A year, a year of predictable title matches, ppv after ppv, for a rematch more obvious then Rock/Cena and you can't even the common ing courtesy to have the guy whose willing to show up every week go over? Joe. Strowman. Balor, anybody worth a damn. If we got Brock/Roman at 35 it should main event so the fans can leave without feeling like they wasted their money."
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Post by TheLastDude on Apr 12, 2018 17:59:31 GMT -5
I feel like everyone who whined for the last year about how much they hate Roman and would do anything to have him lose at Mania Are the exact same ones who are now whining that he lost at Mania I don't understand people You're not wrong, but I think TheSystem put into words the reaction to the booking perfectly right under your post: My take from WM night: "I'm not ok with Lesnar winning. I'm actually quite annoyed and I haven't even seen the match yet. WWE ed Joe and Strowman out of their momentums for this match and they go and out Brock over? A year, a year of predictable title matches, ppv after ppv, for a rematch more obvious then Rock/Cena and you can't even the common ing courtesy to have the guy whose willing to show up every week go over? Joe. Strowman. Balor, anybody worth a damn. If we got Brock/Roman at 35 it should main event so the fans can leave without feeling like they wasted their money." We were hamstrung for what felt like forever so we could get this big "match for the ages" Brock/Roman rematch that would usher in the era of Roman so we could just get it over with. You know? Let him fail or succeed...but let's get it going. And then they yank the rug out from under us like they did.
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Post by RybackV1 on Apr 12, 2018 18:13:26 GMT -5
I feel like everyone who whined for the last year about how much they hate Roman and would do anything to have him lose at Mania Are the exact same ones who are now whining that he lost at Mania I don't understand people You're not wrong, but I think TheSystem put into words the reaction to the booking perfectly right under your post: My take from WM night: "I'm not ok with Lesnar winning. I'm actually quite annoyed and I haven't even seen the match yet. WWE ed Joe and Strowman out of their momentums for this match and they go and out Brock over? A year, a year of predictable title matches, ppv after ppv, for a rematch more obvious then Rock/Cena and you can't even the common ing courtesy to have the guy whose willing to show up every week go over? Joe. Strowman. Balor, anybody worth a damn. If we got Brock/Roman at 35 it should main event so the fans can leave without feeling like they wasted their money." We were hamstrung for what felt like forever so we could get this big "match for the ages" Brock/Roman rematch that would usher in the era of Roman so we could just get it over with. You know? Let him fail or succeed...but let's get it going. And then they yank the rug out from under us like they did. All it means is that someone else will dethrone the unstoppable Brock Lesnar ,hopefully someone that's actually organically over with the crowd and not shoved down our throats. Bryan shoots right into mind, as does Braun It could also be a sign that they're not gonna actually go with Roman as the next face of the company after all, and that they've realized that he just will not get those babyface cheers, and will just see how things play out from here as far as their next Hogan/Austin/Cena
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Post by Darkhawk on Apr 12, 2018 18:23:34 GMT -5
What bothered me is the match overall, for Reigns to kick out of 5 F5's but Strowman and Joe get beat with 1 is illogical to me. I wish Brock wrestled the way he did in 2012-2014 before the suplex came into play. His matches were at least enjoyable to watch.
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Post by k5 on Apr 12, 2018 21:47:13 GMT -5
Roman just has not been properly developed, plain and simple. I thought the monster Brock was a great idea, and I was one of his big fans even when many on this forum started growing sick of him, but as this point he is just a detriment to the product. if he never plans to wrestle like he did in his first run then he should just leave. Vince caters to the casual fan. And for people who only tune in occasionally or when there is a big show, those people want to see Suplex City. They are not impressed by a 6 star match in the Tokyo Dome. Vince knows the hardcore marks are going to watch no matter what is presented to them, they'll just go bitch about it on the internet and threaten to stop watching....then still keep watching. He's already got those people pretty much no matter what. It just is what it is. It's wrestling. It's best to not try and over complicate it. People call guys like Brock, Roman, and Orton boring....I try and rationalize that their fighting style fits their characters. Orton is the "Viper", he's supposed to be slow paced and methodical, with his strikes being very deliberate and calculated...wouldn't make sense if he was flying around, right? Brock is Suplex City...he's pretty much just going to do suplexes and F5's because those are his power moves. And Roman, he's the new Hogan where he just essentially gets pummeled for the entire match and then Hulks up and comes back with Superman punches and spears. Hogan was the same way: Get beat up, Hulk up, yoooooooou punch punch punch, Irish whip big boot leg drop for the win. i disagree. I think that these common themes that wrestling fans have are by and large force fed to them by those within the industry - that whole ‘the general fan won’t watch a 5 star Tokyo Dome match’ is by and large a goofy statement. characters and story have always been what sold a match, not the match quality itself. and this whole ‘your wrestling fan will always watch’ - then where have they gone? millions and millions of people stopped watching wrestling on a weekly basis. this shows that even these ‘true wrestling fans’ have gone away. the fact that the wwe have to rely on a name that was largely built elsewhere - lesnar in the ufc - reflects that they don’t know what will sell and can’t create new stars that become bigger than the business. as for your rationalization of wrestler’s work that people find tiring, that’s your opinion. my opinion is that they are a reflection of the holes within their characters and angles.
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Post by Jim Cornette’s Wendy’s Order🍔 on Apr 13, 2018 2:09:21 GMT -5
I thought it was a good match with a shocking ending nobody predicted. If anything was bad about the match, it was the mark fans booing and doing "boring" and "this is awful" chants because they thought they knew the ending. IMO, they weren't chanting "boring" and "this is awful" because they thought they knew the ending. I think they were chanting that because the match itself was boring and awful. I for one, as others have said also, didn't care for either of them being champion. I actually wanted to see Roman win it, so we would AT LEAST get to see the damn champion on tv each week. The title, so far, doesn't mean crap because it's been on tv about the same amount of time as Nicolas
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Post by LK3 on Apr 13, 2018 2:33:10 GMT -5
In my view it was all due to the suspected outcome. I wasn’t terribly interested in anything during the build up to the match due to assuming Reigns was winning, and while I believe it was a good match I was very uninterested while watching. Kicking out of all those F-5’s was a bit ridiculous, and then he doesn’t even win.
A year ago when it came out that Lesnar/Reigns was the plan for WM34, my thought was that they should’ve done it at SummerSlam with Reigns winning. That way an entire year for an assumed outcome, and assuming Brock is leaving, isn’t hanging over the match.
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Mr Wrestling Jr.
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Post by Mr Wrestling Jr. on Apr 13, 2018 3:11:59 GMT -5
I thought it was a good match with a shocking ending nobody predicted. If anything was bad about the match, it was the mark fans booing and doing "boring" and "this is awful" chants because they thought they knew the ending. That pissed me off. I wanted Reigns to win because I am so goddamned sick of Brock and the people in attendance didn't even give it a chance.
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powerfred3k
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Post by powerfred3k on Apr 13, 2018 7:03:18 GMT -5
It was not bad match, but no one should take 6 finishers to lose. I like brock but he needs to show up more than once every 2 months and then every raw building up to mania. Seriously Braun is over as , put the belt on him already and have him go with roman. Cause reigns is hunters guy so you know they are not gonna give up on him.
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Post by bigshab421 on Apr 13, 2018 7:18:47 GMT -5
It was not bad match, but no one should take 6 finishers to lose. I like brock but he needs to show up more than once every 2 months and then every raw building up to mania. Seriously Braun is over as , put the belt on him already and have him go with roman. Cause reigns is hunters guy so you know they are not gonna give up on him.Right, but the thing is that he is Vince's boy too. I think the difference is that with seeing how hard Reigns is failing to connect, I feel HHH would have switched him up already (with either a different look, or a heel turn). Vince is stubborn and will stick with it, we have seen countless times in NXT when a guy fails to get over or connect, they usually try something to tweak it.
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